Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Hero isn't dead. Its just moving to a paradigm - at least for now - where motivated writers kick-back licensing fees to the parent company to produce new books at a somewhat slower rate. Steve and Darren aren't "gone," just writing for themselves as they see fit. Others can join them. It might even serve to add some interesting variety.

 

As for me, my ideal system would be the 4th edition soft-cover hero rules with some minor tweaks and editing, and a few of the better ideas from 5ER and 6E ported backward into it. Overall, I think such an edition would run 250-270 pages of crunch.

 

But that's not where the system is at and discussions like the one going on at RPG net are interesting in theory, but not very useful in Hero's current situation. More product with substantial new content using 6E as the base is the way forward.

 

There is a part of me that would love to see a severely edited down version of 6e. That still has every option that 6e offers, but without the LONG explanations. The Condensed Version of the Rules if you like. I would still want to have 6e in it's current longwinded glory as a reference to settle rules arguments.

 

Perhaps having the brief rules be the "Main thing" people see in the game store. Then offering the Mega Edition as PDF, and Perhaps as a searchable and readable website behind a cheap Paywall. Perhaps giving 6 months free with the purchase of the main book and/or including access with a sub to Hero Designer. With HD going up by $10 - $15 and down to a 2 year sub. That way the Rules become MUCH more readable, and the super detailed explanations and extra rules become something that is easy to search from any computing device (ie iPhone, Android, iPad etc).

 

It's just a pipe dream though. The amount of Development dollars and the small size of the fanbase would pretty much make this impossible to fund.

 

Call the Condensed rules Hero System Core. Keep the 6e books as they are, but slap a sticker on them calling them the Expanded Edition or something like that. Perhaps Hero should do a Kickstarter to see if anyone is willing to put their money where their mouth is. (PS I would give this to someone like Bruce Harlick to edit, he seems to be able to cut through Steve's rules and get to the core of stuff)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

(PS I would give this to someone like Bruce Harlick to edit' date=' he seems to be able to cut through Steve's rules and get to the core of stuff)[/quote']Well, in fairness, so can Steve when he chooses to. Look at the Basic Rules; that's plenty terse.

 

Personally, I agree with you. My preference would be to have the main rulebook be complete, but written in the concise style that the Basic rules employ. Then there could be either an additional book (or books) of expanded explanations that you could have in addition to the main rulebook, or an "ultimate edition," that's like the current 6E rules, that you could have instead of the main rulebook.

 

Of course, this all falls under "Decisions I would get to make if I ponied up my own life's savings to buy the company," etc. etc.

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

The frustrating thing is that when the rules were more concise with fewer examples and explanation people complained that they couldn't understand what to do with the toolkit. Seriously, the whole HS is unfathomably complex thing goes back to 4th Edition, at least.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

The frustrating thing is that when the rules were more concise with fewer examples and explanation people complained that they couldn't understand what to do with the toolkit. Seriously' date=' the whole HS is unfathomably complex thing goes back to 4th Edition, at least.[/quote']For me, the desire for conciseness isn't because the longer version is unfathomable at all... it's just a matter of convenience. To me, 6E (and really, this started with 5ER) is so massive that at times it can be hard to find something you remember seeing, just because there's so much to go through. It's the "I can't see the forest for the trees" effect. I think maybe it's an oddity of the Hero System that what you want from the rulebooks can evolve greatly over time...

 

For the brand-newbie, a shorter, simpler book (like the Basic rules) is good, because you can learn the core elements of the system without being scared off by the size or density of larger books. Then for the journeyman player, you more-or-less know how things work, but you may not yet have entirely wrapped your brain around why things work. This is the state in which more examples and explanations are helpful, to give more toolkitting ideas, and help clarify questions that arise while running.

 

But when you get to be an experienced player, who understands the axioms of the system well, and can therefore extrapolate intelligently when rules questions/conflicts arise, then a rulebook with the full toolkit, but without all the examples and one-off explanations of precisely how this game element interacts with that one (sort of a Basic Rulebook on Steroids) becomes appealing...

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't think HS is unfathomable. It just seems like a sot of catch-22 situation. When the rule books were smaller or more concise the complaint was that they were hard to understand. With all the examples and explanation, the books are too scary and big to read. :-/

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

The rulebooks are reference manuals. This is not a bad thing in itself, except that reference manuals are not textbooks, and vice versa.

 

I would love to see -- and if there were a Kickstarter for this I would fund -- a "how to play HERO" textbook written by an educator. Maybe Narf's Hero In Two Pages, except expanded to 20 or 64 pages, or however many it needs to be, and as "official" as official gets.

[torchwolf]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

The rulebooks are reference manuals. This is not a bad thing in itself, except that reference manuals are not textbooks, and vice versa.

 

I would love to see -- and if there were a Kickstarter for this I would fund -- a "how to play HERO" textbook written by an educator. Maybe Narf's Hero In Two Pages, except expanded to 20 or 64 pages, or however many it needs to be, and as "official" as official gets.

Personally I like Lucius' meta-character building intros (no time to link one right now though).

 

Grabbing a piece of fiction and describing how it would have played out using Hero might show how the system can be used.

 

"How to play Hero" might be a good idea, though I'm not sure of the target audience - non-Hero gamers? Gamers new to Hero? Gamers new to rpgs in general? (probably not the last category)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

And to continue that line of reasoning...

 

When I want to use the rulebook as a reference manual, it's usually to refer to the rule itself. I think what we currently have with 6E is sort of a reference manual and commentary/supplemental material all rolled into one. I'd like to get -- and would fund a Kickstarter for -- a version that's complete (unlike Basic), but is just the reference manual.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

The frustrating thing is that when the rules were more concise with fewer examples and explanation people complained that they couldn't understand what to do with the toolkit. Seriously' date=' the whole HS is unfathomably complex thing goes back to 4th Edition, at least.[/quote']

 

5th Edition was written to address the Ambiguities that were in 4th and earlier editions of the rules. Steve was chosen to do the write IIRC to "Give it a Lawyer's eye". He turned in a Manuscript that was about 25-33% longer than Pre-DOJ management expected/wanted. So the Line Manager edited down the Document into what DOJ would eventually release as 5th Edition.

 

It was never about understanding what to do with the toolkit. It was about having aversion of the rules that didn't require a full time person settling rules arguments online. Which was the state of affairs during the AOL through Cybergames era of Hero.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I'd say probably gamers new to Hero. The books are big and, despite the friendly color scheme, scary looking.

 

Yes, definitely examples of combat, but also examples of noncombat. Examples of everything from creating a character (buying stats, building powers, reasoning from effect) to noncombat time to Complementary Skill Rolls to making your EGO roll to work through a Psych. A few FAQuestions, of the "How do I figure my combat roll?" type, and lots of "See 6E1 p. xx/Basic p. yy" references.

 

This should in fact be the free intro to HERO. Include a couple of sample characters and a short scenario in which they can play. Could also be packaged as part of the HERO System Resource Kit.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

And to continue that line of reasoning...

 

When I want to use the rulebook as a reference manual, it's usually to refer to the rule itself. I think what we currently have with 6E is sort of a reference manual and commentary/supplemental material all rolled into one. I'd like to get -- and would fund a Kickstarter for -- a version that's complete (unlike Basic), but is just the reference manual.

 

Yes! This also!

[Lucius]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Personally I like Lucius' meta-character building intros (no time to link one right now though).

 

You mean the "How I Learned Hero System" essays from Wannabe Ninja, Juan Heavybrick, Dr. Morrow, and Max Mini?

 

(Learned from an inscrutible martial arts master, from a supervillain's monologue, from scientific investigation and experiments, and from attending the Munchin Institute, respectively)

 

Some day I need to do some more of those. A fantasy one, a noir detective one....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

One for a palindromedary....hey, wait a minute

[torchwolf]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

You mean the "How I Learned Hero System" essays from Wannabe Ninja, Juan Heavybrick, Dr. Morrow, and Max Mini?

 

(Learned from an inscrutible martial arts master, from a supervillain's monologue, from scientific investigation and experiments, and from attending the Munchin Institute, respectively)

 

Some day I need to do some more of those. A fantasy one, a noir detective one....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

One for a palindromedary....hey, wait a minute

Exactly!

 

Is "some day" coming up soon...?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

One for a palindromedary....hey' date=' wait a minute[/quote']

 

You could have the palindromedary put its heads together.

[mkultra]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

"How to play Hero" might be a good idea' date=' though I'm not sure of the target audience - non-Hero gamers? Gamers new to Hero? Gamers new to rpgs in general? (probably not the last category)[/quote']

This is not unheard of. Both GURPS and D&D have a "For Dummies" book.

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

5th Edition was written to address the Ambiguities that were in 4th and earlier editions of the rules.

 

I never regarded the ambiguities in 4E as being so great as to require more than some careful rephrasing and perhaps 20 pages more material.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I never regarded the ambiguities in 4E as being so great as to require more than some careful rephrasing and perhaps 20 pages more material.

 

I am pretty sure that the Folk running Hero at the time thought the same thing. What they got was something a bit smaller than 5er. Which they immediatly set about editing down to something they thought was more "reasonable". Of course then Cybergames imploded during the dot com crash leaving them no money to actually publish their edited manuscript.

 

It would be really cool to have an edition that was edited down to just what was necessary, and wasn't missing any powers/skills/Perks/etc. I really love having the Encyclopedia Brittanica edition of the rules. It's really nice to be able to have just about any rule question able to be answered by looking it up in the books. It's just not something that one can read like earlier editions.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Does Hero even have an official free intro/quick start rulebook?

 

I'm a big believer in the "first taste is free" marketing paradigm.

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I am pretty sure that the Folk running Hero at the time thought the same thing. What they got was something a bit smaller than 5er. Which they immediatly set about editing down to something they thought was more "reasonable". Of course then Cybergames imploded during the dot com crash leaving them no money to actually publish their edited manuscript.

 

It would be really cool to have an edition that was edited down to just what was necessary, and wasn't missing any powers/skills/Perks/etc. I really love having the Encyclopedia Brittanica edition of the rules. It's really nice to be able to have just about any rule question able to be answered by looking it up in the books. It's just not something that one can read like earlier editions.

 

My thinking is that, in the Internet age, the Rulebook and a FAQ don't have to be the same volume.

 

The "rules clarifications" could be professionally formatted in a printable file (.pdf) that can be downloaded for free.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I don't see the value (from the company's perspective) of giving half of the book's content away for free...

[djkester]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

@Derek,

 

This is a core problem. The problem that anyone who is selling to customers has to determine is how do I increase demand on my products. Marketing costs money and in today's world advertising doesn't cut it. You need to provide value to the consumer to get them to make a time commitment to your product.

 

For example, in the company I work in we often engage in free pre-sales work to help demonstrate for potential customers the value of our offerings and capabilities. This loss leader costs the company money to develop and engage. The return is on the increased business as a results of our "free" services.

 

Giving away content to increase demand may very well be the best business case for the company.

 

I'm not sure for Hero Games that this is the best strategy but I feel pretty strongly that if you gave away a PDF of the basic book you'd increase demand for the full core set. Likely you'd want to edit the basic book to include hooks to drive the customer to the fuller books but even the current PDF would increase demand if people could get a feel for the game who currently have no experience with its greatness.

 

I don't have any sales data of course but I wonder if the number of basic books purchased happens after the user buys the full set instead of the other way around. I know for the people I game with If I could give them the basic rules they'd be much more likely to invest further into the system. Right now I'm asking them all to put down the $20.00 themselves to get it. They are still thinking about it. The only reason they even consider it is because I've already given them a motivation and value to do so by starting a Hero System campaign. Without me they wouldn't have looked twice at the system. Motivating people to give your product a chance is the key to increasing sales.

 

That hurdle to getting into the system has to be something that Hero Games overcomes if they are to truly pull a phoenix. IMO.

 

IMO they should put the content of the Basic book on RPG Now and their own store for free and capture email addresses of these customers and start marketing to them.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

My comment was aimed at Vondy's idea of giving the rules interpretation/FAQ/corner-case information (that's currently in the core rules) away as a free PDF. I don't think the company gains anything by giving that away, because it would (presumably) do nothing to draw in new players. Better, IMO, to include it in an "ultimate edition" of the core rules, and/or sell it separately in a "Hero System Companion" sort of book.

 

Giving away some stripped-down version of the rules is a different idea. Yes, they currently sell the Basic rules. But the Basic rules as currently presented are a complete game (and even given their restrictions, a better game than almost everything else out there). I wouldn't advocate giving away the Basic rules, even in PDF format. They're more than just appetizer for the whole menu; they're a complete (albeit smaller) meal.

 

However, I do think that offering a free teaser product is a good idea. It just needs to be sufficiently stripped down that almost no one would be content with it long-term as a game system. It's like demo software. It needs to include just enough for people get a good idea of what the real product is like, but not enough for it to be truly useful on its own.

 

Or at least, not useful beyond a limited shelf life. For example, perhaps the product could include a brief adventure, including a couple of characters, with verbiage that explains enough to show what the characters can do, basically how things work, etc. (enough that you might be able to play that specific adventure), but nothing beyond teases about how to create other characters, etc. So they could see how it works, but they couldn't actually use it as a functional product beyond that adventure...

 

So I would like to see some kind of product tree like this:

 

Hero System Teaser (freebie PDF)

Hero System Basic Rules ("lite" version of the rules, like the current product)

Hero System Rulesbook (full ruleset, with minimal corner-case/example type information)

Hero System Companion (the corner-case/example information from the current H6E, divorced from the rules)

Hero System Ultimate (essentially the Rulesbook and the Companion combined, like H6E currently is)

[djkester]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

@Derek,

 

Ah i see better now. I do agree that the idea is to get people playing the game who aren't now and a significantly complete teaser would be a great product in place of the basic book.

 

In fact I think this other thread on Quick Starts actually might be a good place to find this teaser game. The main reason I play Hero System is due entirely to Danger International. It is the game that got me addicted to HS. Champions was fun but the system's overall usefulness wasn't clear to me until DI.

 

I like the idea though of a Ninja quick start as the teaser.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

The Teaser edition could be a quick explanation of the Stats, Skills, and combat in a nutshell (inc speed charty goodness). It could be released as a free pdf and also packaged in mini adventures for Free RPG Day. Kind of like Savage Worlds does with it's quick start rules. The adventures would have to be Heroic level games (champions powers would inflate stuff by a huge amount). Any ability and weapon that isn't part of the quickstart rules would be explained briefly on the 1/2 page character sheet.

 

I would also make sure that said adventure advertised not only the rule books, but also the Genre and prebuilt ability book for said genre (ie Grimoire for Fantasy Hero, HS Martial Arts for a game with martial Arts etc). Make sure those are showcased because those take much of the "hard" math out of the game. Leaving only Addition and subtraction that even RPG.net'ers can/should be able to manage.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I have had this thought before, and figure I would share it here...

 

I would kill to see HERO rules as the basis for a "Make your own RPG" series of computer games. You combine HERO with, say, the engine from Skyrim, build one game or two as a starter, then license it to others to make their own games with. Could even be an "MMO-builder" if done right.

 

But, yes, kind of a pipe dream I am sure.