Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I don't think the problem is what mix of products Hero Games was publishing. The problem is the shrinking of the pen-and-paper RPG hobby, and the weak economy in general. I suspect that Hero's percentage of RPG players is about as good as it's ever been. The main problem is that the now-smaller number of players that represents, and the amount of money they have available to spend, is no longer enough to support the company as it had been. Even if some kind of strategy change could increase the percentage of RPG players drawn to Hero (a prospect I'm dubious of, although of course it's possible), it would need to be a sizable percentage increase, because the raw numbers of RPG players seem to be declining all the time.

 

To me, the real question is, "Is there anything we can do to increase the popularity of pen-and-paper RPGing as a whole?" Because even if someone came up with a brilliant idea that got Hero an extra 20% of the RPG market (which would be amazing), it would still probably only be a delaying action. It would be like gaining an extra 20% of the buggy whip market, or TV tube manufacturing. Getting a bigger piece of a vanishing pie won't fill you up for long...

 

Buggy Whips were converted to BDSM sex toys. They do ok.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I don't think the problem is what mix of products Hero Games was publishing. The problem is the shrinking of the pen-and-paper RPG hobby, and the weak economy in general. I suspect that Hero's percentage of RPG players is about as good as it's ever been. The main problem is that the now-smaller number of players that represents, and the amount of money they have available to spend, is no longer enough to support the company as it had been. Even if some kind of strategy change could increase the percentage of RPG players drawn to Hero (a prospect I'm dubious of, although of course it's possible), it would need to be a sizable percentage increase, because the raw numbers of RPG players seem to be declining all the time.

 

To me, the real question is, "Is there anything we can do to increase the popularity of pen-and-paper RPGing as a whole?" Because even if someone came up with a brilliant idea that got Hero an extra 20% of the RPG market (which would be amazing), it would still probably only be a delaying action. It would be like gaining an extra 20% of the buggy whip market, or TV tube manufacturing. Getting a bigger piece of a vanishing pie won't fill you up for long...

 

I agree with this sentiment.

 

I think the industry needs a new concept to revitalize the hobby on the order of the success of Starbucks or the i-phone. Pen & paper gaming has almost always been about a tight group of friends with a stable place to meet and play. The "holy grail" of such places is someone's home or apartment with stable game/comic shops being a close second. With the decline in stability in both the biggest hurdle to recruiting new players is that there is an ever declining public display of the hobby (as opposed to video games which have cable channels dedicated them). If the hobby is to survive someone will eventually have to figure out a viable economic model that would allow franchise neighborhood game-play sites where GM's get in for free or are even paid (using a variation of the typical convention model) and players pay some equitable fee. Eventually, sets of game rules could be purchased under an 'enterprise-like' model that they could then be shared with their customers via tablet cloud computing. If I win the lottery, this is something I would seriously consider.

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

On "streamlining" and "simplifying" the Hero System: Aren't there enough "simple rules lite" systems out there for those that want to play them? I like Hero System at the level of so called "complexity" that it has now. Make some basic rules? Sure, go for it one thinks it would sell but the keep the base system, the Hero System, around. Every single game made does not have to cater to those prefer rules light (which is a relative term anyway). I think it could be arranged differently, word count cut down, etc but I like having an alternative to the rules light, handwave-y style games that seem to dominate tastes right now. I like heftier rules and more solid system and HS is one of the seemingly few alternatives out there that I enjoy.

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

On "streamlining" and "simplifying" the Hero System: Aren't there enough "simple rules lite" systems out there for those that want to play them? I like Hero System at the level of so called "complexity" that it has now. Make some basic rules? Sure' date=' go for it one thinks it would sell but the keep the base system, the Hero System, around. Every single game made does not have to cater to those prefer rules light (which is a relative term anyway). I think it could be arranged differently, word count cut down, etc but I like having an alternative to the rules light, handwave-y style games that seem to dominate tastes right now. I like heftier rules and more solid system and HS is one of the seemingly few alternatives out there that I enjoy.[/quote']

 

Personally, I feel 4th edition with a few clarifications and back-ported ideas is as granular as I want to go with a system. The issue isn't really complexity. The core mechanics of Hero are what they are. Its a question of granularity and implementation. 5th and 6th edition ramped the granularity up to the nth degree and added minutiae bloat on the design level. That's one path to walk. Its also correct if that's what you want. But its not the only path and I'm not convinced for the base system its the best approach. Hero's core mechanics lend themselves to more than one way of doing things due to their flexibility in terms of how much detail you want in characters and run-time play. The current iteration has adopted a highly crystallized approach that actually takes work to undo if you have a different style. I utterly reject your assertion that people who don't like the current level of granularity should go play something else because Hero could very much remain itself and be implemented in a much less cumbersome fashion.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I don't think anyone's suggesting Hero go handwavey, but rather there should be a less imposing rulebook out there that still maintains enough Hero goodness to serve as a gateway into the full system.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

What follows is intended to be constructive criticism, and I hope it is taken in that spirit.

 

Fantasy Hero, the 6E version, is a totally awesome book if I want to sit down and create a fantasy setting and eventually run it using the HERO System.

 

Fantasy Hero, the first edition (self contained rules plus campaigning material plus source material), is a totally awesome book if I want to get a few friends together, make up some characters, and play.

 

What we need is a book that I can sit down with, crack it open, and be playing within fifteen minutes. This is irrespective of whether it has self contained rules, or even a "setting" as in a world in which to adventure. For Fantasy Hero, let's say: here are some sample characters you can customize. Here is a weapon list. Here are some spells, some magic items, some monsters. Here is a short adventure with some brief notes on the world in which it is located, along with its NPCs and a map, along with some additional adventure hooks.

 

After that, then support the heck out of the genre.

 

As far as sheer amount of gaming is concerned, since 1985 I've gotten a lot more out of the slim first edition book than all of the Fantasy Hero books that have come out since.

 

I might very well be in the small minority of Hero gamers in this, and if so I accept that happily, but the Hero Universe never really grabbed me. I remember being awesomely grabbed by Champions 3e and the implied universe that came from the tantalizing mentions of VIPER and UNTIL and Mechanon and the other sample characters; they were "Champions" the way Bigby's Floating Hand and Mordenkainen's Ice Sphere were D&D. Fantasy Hero needs its implied setting; Champions definitely does. Metasetting.

 

The Hero Universe, and the "official" Champions Universe as part of it, became... metaplot. When 4e turned the implied setting into Champions Universe for the first time, thence to the Hero Universe metaplot, I started being a little less grabbed. I think it was the notion of "We are pulling all of those mentions into one coherent universe," with the implication that you are playing in this universe, that put me off. It was the pulling together of it all. If there had been something somewhere that said "This is a Champions Universe, one of many; here are some things you can use in it," I probably would have been a lot more enthused. But it has kind of felt like there has been one the Champions Universe. I know there's nothing that says that in any of the books, but when a book is part of a larger setting I feel like it's harder to use outside of that setting.

 

When Mechanon stopped being "'s former robot servant" and became "The Champions' former robot servant," I started feeling like I couldn't use Mechanon in my own character's backstories anymore without tying it into the Champions' world.

 

We need metasetting, not metaplot. With the Hero Universe, I get the sense that Tyrranax is out there and Istvatha v'Han and the Turakian Age, and Dr. Destroyer blew up Detroit and the Champions stopped Mechanon from blowing up Phoenix... it feels like there isn't room for my games. There was a subtle difference in feeling between the implied setting found in the villains from Enemies I through III and a universe book followed by expansions of the characters and groups and whatnot in that universe. I am fully aware that there are lots of folks who absolutely love this. I absolutely do not want to say, don't support those people. If there's money in it, do support those people. In fact, why not a "living" Champions Universe?

 

But it would be nice to have setting material that isn't tied in to other setting material.

 

I'm waffling. The issue you describe has always been my issue with "licensed setting" games. I don't want to play in the SW universe, knowing Luke is the one who will bring down the Big Bad, and my games will always be side stories, or in the Marvel or DC Universes, where the official characters make ours fade into obscurity. At the same time, those settings sell.

 

Or do they? Has there been a really successful "licensed game setting" RPG? Not one that sold well off the press and then faded away, but one that had some legs and staying power. Call of Cthulhu? Well, maybe that proves the point, since there was no overarching plot in Lovecraft's work to take the focus off MY characters and games, so that really is a licensed SETTING, not a licensed universe pre-stocked with characters who have, or will, undertake all the important tasks, where the next big novel or event may well invalidate the progress of my campaign.

 

We've had threads in the past suggesting a "Genre Sidekick" product - rules lite, setting lite and an adventure to start playing right now. PS 238 and Lucha Libre sort of attempted that model - how well did they sell? Of course, they were both more focused niche markets than a 21st century "here's the rules, some sample Supers characters and a VIPER's Nest updated adventure - have at it, gamers" model.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I'll suggest that if Hero had a Marvel license, sold a game book with glossy marvel art, basic rules on how to play, pre-generated powers, and example characters and superhero NPCs (e.g., Spider-Man, Avengers, etc.), we'd probably not be having a discussion about whether licensed settings sell. Sell a separate "Builder's Handbook" with all the underlying bells and whistles used to build the stuff in the slimmer main book and some subset of the original buyers would be buying that as well.

[Lucius]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

First off - I agree with those who maintain that the situation has more to do with the overall economy, and the state of the industry, than with Hero Games per se.

Maybe after a period of "hibernation" Hero will come back strong when more gamers have more money for games.

 

But I had to respond to this.

 

We've had threads in the past suggesting a "Genre Sidekick" product - rules lite, setting lite and an adventure to start playing right now. PS 238 and Lucha Libre sort of attempted that model - how well did they sell? Of course, they were both more focused niche markets than a 21st century "here's the rules, some sample Supers characters and a VIPER's Nest updated adventure - have at it, gamers" model.

 

Exactly. "niche market."

 

I've said this before and will probably say it again.

 

I can go down to my friendly local game store any night of the week and find someone who is interested in playing fantasy role playing games.

 

With the (possible) exception of Gen Con, as far as I know I have never been in the presence of anyone who would ever say "Hey, I'd really like to play a role playing game about Mexican masked wrestlers."

 

On the other hand, for those that DO want to play that, Luche Libre is (again, as far as I know) their only option, so there is that. Maybe the idea was to bring in people who otherwise didn't do role playing games AT ALL which would be a really good idea actually.

 

But however well or poorly it sold, I don't think it would tell us anything useful about the prospects of a similar project designed around a setting that a significant number of gamers would actually be interested in playing in. I would say it doesn't even necessarily tell us much about the prospects of any other "off the wall" ideas that might be tried. Maybe fans of Mexican wrestling will take readily to roleplaying but fans of, let's say, soap operas won't. Or vice versa. Only by trying "Soap Opera Hero" would we find out, if anyone thinks it's worth a try.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or Palindromedary Hero....that would be a really small niche I think....

 

Lucius Alexander

[Lucius]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I'll suggest that ifHero had a Marvel license...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If Palindromedary Enterprises had a Marvel license...

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I'll suggest that if Hero had a Marvel license' date=' sold a game book with glossy marvel art, basic rules on how to play, pre-generated powers, and example characters and superhero NPCs (e.g., Spider-Man, Avengers, etc.), we'd probably not be having a discussion about whether licensed settings sell. Sell a separate "Builder's Handbook" with all the underlying bells and whistles used to build the stuff in the slimmer main book and some subset of the original buyers would be buying that as well.[/quote']

 

Licences look all shiny and good, but they are prickly balls of evil. Look at what happened to Cryptic with the Marvel Universe (cough I mean Champions Universe). Licences are full of people outside of your company telling you how to write your books. They are expensive and unless you can sell a gajillion books they can be really hard to make money with. Also, it seems like for some licences it's really easy for the Licence holder to "take his ball and go home" if they decide to not like you. Leaving you with a ton of books that you suddenly can't sell. Also for many licences there's that sense of the PC's being "the other guys" and not as important as the characters in the Licence. That issue make me as a GM and Player avoid most licenced game worlds.

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Personally' date=' I feel 4th edition with a few clarifications and back-ported ideas is as granular as I want to go with a system. The issue isn't really complexity. The core mechanics of Hero are what they are. Its a question of granularity and implementation. 5th and 6th edition ramped the granularity up to the nth degree and added minutiae bloat on the design level. That's one path to walk. Its also correct if that's what you want. But its not the only path and I'm not convinced for the [i']base system[/i] its the best approach. Hero's core mechanics lend themselves to more than one way of doing things due to their flexibility in terms of how much detail you want in characters and run-time play. The current iteration has adopted a highly crystallized approach that actually takes work to undo if you have a different style. I utterly reject your assertion that people who don't like the current level of granularity should go play something else because Hero could very much remain itself and be implemented in a much less cumbersome fashion.

 

I've said more than one the presentation could be improved, I said in the post you quoted that making "Basic Edition" for those that wanted it could work and earlier I said setting specific rules might work. But the suggestions I've seen on rpg.net and other places have left me with little faith in any "improvements" would be anything I'd want to see happen to the system: axing most of the characteristics, dropping the division between physical and energy defense, getting rid of the Speed chart and others, particularly considering the current drive for simplicity. As I earlier, people have been complaining about Hero System being too complicated since 4th edition, perhaps earlier. Mutants and Masterminds gets complaints about being too "crunchy" for some. My point isn't Hero System: Love it or leave it but there are plenty of options for rules light fans (Including earlier editions of HS). Can't there be something for those of us who like something else. I don't want to see Hero gutted to appeal to certain market that isn't even hungry for a new system as it stands.

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Hero System doesn't need 'saving'. What it needs is sales and interest.

As long as it has those, it'll weather this economic storm and emerge later.

 

About the ONLY thing I'd agree with in that thread is that genre books help focus players and game masters when setting up a campaign.

 

I don't know a lot about the business model of Hero System's owner, but I always wondered if they were spending too much money/time/focus on genre books Are they big income generators? I don't know how popular they are but I never use them except for the "Champions" one from 5th edition.

 

Pure speculation on my part, but I always thought they'd sell more books if the rules were included with every genre book (like "Lucha Libre Hero" did). I know I'm unlikely to buy a genre book for a game where I need to make a 2nd purchase to actually use the 1st purchase, so I wonder whether non-Hero System gamers would buy genre books for Hero System. Anybody know or have an opinion?

 

--Kap

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I don't know a lot about the business model of Hero System's owner' date=' but I always wondered if they were spending too much money/time/focus on genre books Are they big income generators?[/quote']I believe the genre books are their best non-Champions sellers. For example, they noted that (for 5E) Star Hero far outsold any of the Star Hero supplements, Pulp Hero far outsold any of the Pulp Hero supplements, etc. Precisely how they compare to the sales of Champions supplements, I'm not sure (except that Champions itself was the highest-selling Supers supplement).

Pure speculation on my part' date=' but I always thought they'd sell more books if the rules were included with every genre book (like "Lucha Libre Hero" did). I know I'm unlikely to buy a genre book for a game where I need to make a 2nd purchase to actually use the 1st purchase, so I wonder whether non-Hero System gamers would buy genre books for Hero System. Anybody know or have an opinion?[/quote']The trouble with this argument is that you'd be hoping to attract new customers to the detriment of your existing customers. Yes, it would give non-Hero System gamers a way to buy genre books that didn't necessitate buying a second book. But it would also mean that Hero System gamers were essentially "buying a second book" (or more precisely, part of a book that they already owned) over and over and over again.

 

I feel absolutely sure that if they did this, you would hear plenty of howling from Hero System players complaining about buying the rules over again just to get a genre book.

 

Now, that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad idea. I think it just means you have to be thoughtful about which books get that treatment and how. In a perfect world, it would be nice if both "stand-alone" and "supplement-style" versions of each genre book could be made available, so buyers could choose the one appropriate for them. But I'd suspect that might not be economically feasible...

[dmjalund]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Thats the direction Margaret Weis Productions (makers of Smallville RPG) are going with their Marvel license

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I've said more than one the presentation could be improved' date=' I said in the post you quoted that making "Basic Edition" for those that wanted it could work and earlier I said setting specific rules might work. But the suggestions I've seen on rpg.net and other places have left me with little faith in any "improvements" would be anything I'd want to see happen to the system: axing most of the characteristics, dropping the division between physical and energy defense, getting rid of the Speed chart and others, particularly considering the current drive for simplicity. As I earlier, people have been complaining about Hero System being too complicated since 4th edition, perhaps earlier. Mutants and Masterminds gets complaints about being too "crunchy" for some. My point isn't Hero System: Love it or leave it but there are plenty of options for rules light fans (Including earlier editions of HS). Can't there be something for those of us who like something else. I don't want to see Hero gutted to appeal to certain market that isn't even hungry for a new system as it stands.[/quote']

 

Returning to an approach more similar to 4th edition would hardly be "gutting" the system.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

There's at least a few games out there that have a "universal" system, where each time you buy a new genre book you get the rules again too. White Wolf used to do this (don't know if the new WOD still use this model). Palladium does it. BRP did it. So if you only want TMNT, you just buy TMNT; no need to buy any other books (except the endless splatbooks). If you want Vampire, you just buy Vampire. And so on. So it works for some people/systems.

 

'Course, I don't know how well those companies are doing financially. I suspect Derek is right in that most of Hero's problems stem from the crappy economy. They certainly aren't the only company out there right now, in any industry you can name, that's hurting.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

In a perfect world' date=' it would be nice if both "stand-alone" and "supplement-style" versions of each genre book could be made available, so buyers could choose the one appropriate for them. But I'd suspect that might not be economically feasible...[/quote']Thinking about this some more, I wonder whether it would be possible/desirable to do something like print the genre books as supplemental to the core rules (as they have been since 4E), but also include a coupon code with each one that can be redeemed in the online store for either a free copy of the Hero System Basic Rulebook PDF, or $15 off the purchase of the 6E1/6E2 bundle in PDF.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Various of nature's creatures have characteristic reactions when startled or panicked:

Armadillos leap into the air (presumably to facilitate rolling into a ball).

 

Deer instinctively freeze (much to the detriment of drivers and motorcyclists, especially the latter).

 

Skunks spray a foul-smelling liquid.

 

Gamers suggest revisions to their favorite system.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Me? I'd like to see a 6ED version of the old Champions rulebook with the rules in the book. One volume, some reading, and you're ready to play.Likewise, I'd like to see the basic rule set included in genre books. People new to hero buy the genre books thinking they're getting a complete game. Then they see the cost of the actual rule books and wonder if they've been scammed. "You mean I have to buy more very expensive books before I can even begin? WTF?!?"

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I feel absolutely sure that if they did this, you would hear plenty of howling from Hero System players complaining about buying the rules over again just to get a genre book.

 

Now, that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad idea. I think it just means you have to be thoughtful about which books get that treatment and how. In a perfect world, it would be nice if both "stand-alone" and "supplement-style" versions of each genre book could be made available, so buyers could choose the one appropriate for them. But I'd suspect that might not be economically feasible...

 

Perhaps as PDFs or as POD products?

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

There's at least a few games out there that have a "universal" system, where each time you buy a new genre book you get the rules again too. White Wolf used to do this (don't know if the new WOD still use this model). Palladium does it. BRP did it. So if you only want TMNT, you just buy TMNT; no need to buy any other books (except the endless splatbooks). If you want Vampire, you just buy Vampire. And so on. So it works for some people/systems.

 

'Course, I don't know how well those companies are doing financially. I suspect Derek is right in that most of Hero's problems stem from the crappy economy. They certainly aren't the only company out there right now, in any industry you can name, that's hurting.

 

nWOD uses a set up similar to Hero. There's a core World of Darkness book with the rules to play mortals/humans and the other books have additional rules and templates with the rules to play whatever creature type they cover.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Me? I'd like to see a 6ED version of the old Champions rulebook with the rules in the book. One volume' date=' some reading, and you're ready to play.Likewise, I'd like to see the basic rule set included in genre books. People new to hero buy the genre books thinking they're getting a complete game. Then they see the cost of the actual rule books and wonder if they've been scammed. "You mean I have to buy more very expensive books before I can even begin? WTF?!?"[/quote']Are you suggesting this as the standard way genre books are done? Or as an additional or optional way? Because if this was the standard way, a Hero System player in 5E who owned all the genre books would have at least eight copies of the basic rules (Champions, Star Hero, Fantasy Hero, Ninja Hero, Pulp Hero, Dark Champions, Post-Apocalyptic Hero, and Lucha Libre Hero), and possibly more (if you count books like Galactic Champions, Teen Champions, and Urban Fantasy Hero as genre books, and include the basic rules in those). And that's not even counting PS238. How many times do you think they could sell their core players the basic rules before they squawked?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Eh' date=' IMO, rpg.net is kind of toxic, occasionally interesting or useful for getting a wider point of view but not a very pleasant place overall.[/quote']

 

Any board, any group, when it gets large enough, gains a significant degree degree of toxicity .

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I'll suggest that if Hero had a Marvel license' date=' sold a game book with glossy marvel art, basic rules on how to play, pre-generated powers, and example characters and superhero NPCs (e.g., Spider-Man, Avengers, etc.), we'd probably not be having a discussion about whether licensed settings sell.[/quote']

 

I think you have it backwards. Marvel (or any other entertainment company) should license the Hero System rules, and publish their own settings. They get complete editorial control over their own material, gamers get material, and Hero Games gets cash and exposure. Win-win-win!

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Okay, sure, if you like. My point wasn't about how the business deal should go. It was a point about the potential for success for licensed systems.