Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

[mallet]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I feel, and I've said this for a long time now, that the HERO Core books should be treated like the Tool Kit they say they are. They are the tools for making rules and a game, they are not the rules for any specific game.

 

Now that the Core books are out, HERO should focus on building actual GAMEs with the tool kit.

 

For example they should be making a Turakian Age game, not just a setting book, but a full game with SPECIFIC rules, powers, power levels, experience point system, money system, etc... taken or built from the tool kit and published as part of that specific game.

 

Player and GM's should have the option of just buying the Turakian Age game and having all the rules they need to make character and play right they in that one book (and any supplements they make for it). And then, if the GM wanted to (and would be encouraged to, they could by the CORE Tool Kit and expand, develop and change whatever they wanted in the Turakian Age rules because it is all from the same source.)

 

Player and GMs are drawn to specific setting WoD, Shadowrun, etc... It is the setting that draws them in, not the rules. Shadowrun rules have always sucked, yet all my friends and (obviously) thousands of other people around the world love it, because the setting is so good.

 

That is what HERO needs to focus on. Specific kick-ass settings, with rules adapted from the Tool Kit specifically for each one. Then when player and GMs get hooked they can buy the CORE books and build up/modify the game as they desire.

 

 

In video game examples, look at Skyrim. it is a specific game, made using a set of general tools. People love the game and are hooked on it and soon the game company is going to release the general tools to the public so they can build and expand and modify Sykrim as they desire.

 

This should be the HERO model, but in reverse.

 

They have released the CORE TOOL KIT, now it's time to build and show us actual games made with the TOOL KIT.

[thewomble]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

As far as the free product goes, I'd like to see pdfs of around 30 pages, each of which includes a self-contained adventure with pregens, and just enough rules to get the basics and run through the scenario. Do one for Champions first and then move on to other genres. Then you just need to say "hey guys, let's play Champions right now!" I think that would definitely help with people who have shied away from the game in the past. You could sell the hardcopy for $5 and give away the pdf.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

@Mallet,

 

I think what you are saying is that perhaps Hero should look at going back to the original way of approaching Genres. Take a Setting, Include all of the rules for that setting including equipment, spells, vehicles etc. Publish that as a stand along book. There could be supplements that expand those. De-emphasize powerpoints in those writeups (ie give the real costs for spells and equipment, but not the breakdown of active points, limits and advantages) kind of like is done with Talents. The setting book still uses the hero system, but the look under the hood isn't required to get people playing. I could get behind this. Also, the GM could be pointed toward other Supplements and the Core Rule books if they want to add more stuff to the setting and/or customize things.

 

There are some slight issues with taking this approach. One thing about not having active points is that Dispel and Suppress become more problematic. Though perhaps a rethink about the way these powers are used could help. Perhaps Dispel could cost more per die and dispel based on real Cost (not inc. Power Frameworks). It makes a bit of sense for a severly limited spell to be easier to dispel than one that is more raw. I guess Suppress could gain the same mechanic and the same increase in cost.

 

Also books done this way could be used to De-Championize some things. ie. Making poisons and diseases be regular drains instead of NND (Which IMHO only makes sense in Superheroic games)

[gojira]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

De-emphasize powerpoints in those writeups (ie give the real costs for spells and equipment' date=' but not the breakdown of active points, limits and advantages) kind of like is done with Talents. The setting book still uses the hero system, but the look under the hood isn't required to get people playing. I could get behind this.[/quote']

 

 

I liked the way teh bunneh did some of his character sheet write ups, where the full write-ups on the character sheet was de-emphasized, but the full detail of the build was still available elsewhere.

 

That's what I'd like to see. Provide an easy ("EZ") reference with just the essentials where players can grasp it easily, but still have the full write up available. The full write up helps to settle rule questions ("Is this built as a Real Equipment or not?") and makes modification easy if needed, but if it's out of the way then the player doesn't have to deal with it if not needed.

 

One way to do this might be to have the summary info in a table where it can be referenced easily, and the full write ups following the table as text, along with game prose and explanations. Match the character sheets to the shortened form so only the essentials go on the character sheet.

[djkester]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

@Bunneh and Gojira and others...

 

I totally agree about not including to much information in the stand along product. In fact I would make the information about customizing the "game" as a separate product or section to the product (since it likely wouldn't need to be too big. In this you would offer up the general approach to the "game" and how the core rules was used to build things mechanically. To some degree this would information currently in the Genre books but instead of offering up possible ways to build things you'd be describing how it was done in the game and how it could be modified should the GM want to get the core books and do it.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

In case anyone is curious, this is what the character sheets that I use in convention games look like. One is from my Teen Titans Go! game, and the other is from my Lucha Libre game.

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

@Mallet,

 

I think what you are saying is that perhaps Hero should look at going back to the original way of approaching Genres.

 

I know it goes against conventional Hero-think, but I do believe people are looking for Games They Can Play. Having the toolkit ("how to customize") be one product line (6E1, 6E2, APG 1 & 2, etc) and Genres be more plug-and-play in their presentation might be a plus for the Hero as a "game rather than system." It would take a moderate amount of tweaking to make certain mechanics work smoothly in each genre, but Hero as a toolkit was made to be tweaked. Such decisions could be made on a setting to setting level without changing the Core Rules at all, I think. You could just put a short appendix in the back explaining where the variances are and its covered. I love having the toolkit, but I often skip Hero if I think using it will be too much work to get a game up and running.

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Hero System as a toolkit is great for me, personally, because 99.9 percent of the time I create my own settings. Even on the rare occasions where I do use a published one I modify it a great deal, add new material, etc and don't like waiting for its writers to get around to giving me new stuff. But I realize I'm part of what's likely a small minority in current gaming trends and settings might be the way to go as far marketability goes.

 

Settings are also a very competitive market and I think, to succeed, any official settings would have to highlight and push Hero System's strengths outside of being modular and extremely customizable. That might be tricky to pull off.

[The Main Man]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

. I think HERO needs to embrace that it keeps coming back after years of loyal fan support. Make access easier with a free PDF of the Basic rules. Keep PoD and any Hard copies of the basic rules as cheap as possible.

 

The main rule book(s) we all know and love are the "upgrade" that costs money. This would be similar to how Risus, FUDGE, and FATE all have free rules but upgrades that cost money.

 

From there, support the Basic rules in official releases in ways that make the books usable, but with the implication that the advanced rules make it a whole lot more fun.

 

Moving on, any physical copies could be made thinner with a few changes. First, I know what many think about this already, but thinner paper helps make the books look less intimidating in my opinion. Second, could the general font size be reduced at all? Could a thinner font style be used? Ask three of those could make the rules that little bit less intimidating and thus more prospective players may check it out.

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

. I think HERO needs to embrace that it keeps coming back after years of loyal fan support. Make access easier with a free PDF of the Basic rules. Keep PoD and any Hard copies of the basic rules as cheap as possible.

 

The main rule book(s) we all know and love are the "upgrade" that costs money. This would be similar to how Risus, FUDGE, and FATE all have free rules but upgrades that cost money.

 

From there, support the Basic rules in official releases in ways that make the books usable, but with the implication that the advanced rules make it a whole lot more fun.

 

Moving on, any physical copies could be made thinner with a few changes. First, I know what many think about this already, but thinner paper helps make the books look less intimidating in my opinion. Second, could the general font size be reduced at all? Could a thinner font style be used? Ask three of those could make the rules that little bit less intimidating and thus more prospective players may check it out.

 

I haven't seen 6th edition, but I love the nice thick paper and heavy black ink in my 5th edition book. It keeps it from getting bent and dogeared and makes it easy to read. My copy still looks almost new even after a lot of handling.

 

I'd rather they save money by eliminating the color, and save pages by eliminating the artwork, most of which I think is pretty amateurish anyway and (to me) contributes nothing to understanding the game.

 

I like my hardcover, but I wish paperback was an option as it would also probably lower the price point.

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Hero System as a toolkit is great for me, personally, because 99.9 percent of the time I create my own settings. Even on the rare occasions where I do use a published one I modify it a great deal, add new material, etc and don't like waiting for its writers to get around to giving me new stuff. But I realize I'm part of what's likely a small minority in current gaming trends and settings might be the way to go as far marketability goes.

 

Settings are also a very competitive market and I think, to succeed, any official settings would have to highlight and push Hero System's strengths outside of being modular and extremely customizable. That might be tricky to pull off.

 

I agree with you, I don't use any of the settings or characters Hero System puts out. I always scratch my head and wonder how they make money on books about UNTIL, various villains, and the "Champions Universe," but I guess a lot of folks out there like that stuff.

 

The only 2 supplements to Hero System 5th edition that I have are the "Champions" one (bought it used for $5) because it contains lots of great tips for GMs & the "Bestiary" one (also used for $5) to save time writing up animals.

 

--Kap

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I agree with you' date=' I don't use any of the settings or characters Hero System puts out. I always scratch my head and wonder how they make money on books about UNTIL, various villains, and the "Champions Universe," but I guess a lot of folks out there like that stuff.[/quote']Actually, I think this segues into a critical point about the future of Hero Games. Because I don't think there are a lot of folks out there who like that stuff. Or more precisely, I think the percentage of players who use published settings and characters is smaller among fans of the Hero System than it is among fans of almost any other game.

 

Why? Because I think the type of gamer who's naturally attracted to the power and flexibility of the Hero System, also tends to be the type of player who prefers to create their own stuff (their own worlds, their own characters, etc.) And this makes a certain amount of sense, because when you think about it, there is something a bit contradictory about saying, "Hey, here's this awesome rules engine that gives you more choices around your gaming experience than virtually any other game. So now let us take almost all of those choices away from you by giving you a setting with all kinds of things already decided..."

 

I don't mean to say that no one wants or buys those kinds of products (obviously). Just that Hero Games is in kind of a weird position. Because -- more than for any other major game system I can think of -- you really do only need the core rules with the Hero System. And in my experience, there is an unusually high percentage of Hero System players (unusual compared to players of other games) who do in fact play Hero System games while only owning the core rules...

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Actually' date=' I think this segues into a critical point about the future of Hero Games. Because I [b']don't[/b] think there are a lot of folks out there who like that stuff. Or more precisely, I think the percentage of players who use published settings and characters is smaller among fans of the Hero System than it is among fans of almost any other game.

 

Why? Because I think the type of gamer who's naturally attracted to the power and flexibility of the Hero System, also tends to be the type of player who prefers to create their own stuff (their own worlds, their own characters, etc.) And this makes a certain amount of sense, because when you think about it, there is something a bit contradictory about saying, "Hey, here's this awesome rules engine that gives you more choices around your gaming experience than virtually any other game. So now let us take almost all of those choices away from you by giving you a setting with all kinds of things already decided..."

 

I don't mean to say that no one wants or buys those kinds of products (obviously). Just that Hero Games is in kind of a weird position. Because -- more than for any other major game system I can think of -- you really do only need the core rules with the Hero System. And in my experience, there is an unusually high percentage of Hero System players (unusual compared to players of other games) who do in fact play Hero System games while only owning the core rules...

 

While I don't know of anyone who uses the published Hero Universe. Just about everyone I have ever played with uses the Supplements like Until, Viper, Stronghold etc. Those organization books save a ton of time and are quite easy to change enough to fit in anyone's campaign. The reason I think that people buy those are the same people who buy Champions Power. People are looking to Save time (and as Adults it's can be hard to come up with time to dedicate to Gaming).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

While I don't know of anyone who uses the published Hero Universe. Just about everyone I have ever played with uses the Supplements like Until' date=' Viper, Stronghold etc. Those organization books save a ton of time and are quite easy to change enough to fit in anyone's campaign. The reason I think that people buy those are the same people who buy Champions Power. People are looking to Save time (and as Adults it's can be hard to come up with time to dedicate to Gaming).[/quote']Perhaps there is some selection bias at work, because my experience is just the opposite. No Hero System campaign I've ever played in made use of published setting material (meaning worlds, characters, organizations, etc.), other than very occasional villains taken out of the Champions Universe with the serial numbers filed off (and even those were vastly outnumbered by original characters). Same with all the Hero System campaigns I've ever run, except for a single Champions game set in Vibora Bay that ended after only a few sessions. Many of the players associated with those campaigns owned little or no Hero System material beyond the core rules, and even the players (like me) who did just used them as reading material/inspiration, not as actual play aids of any kind...

[gojira]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Well, I guess I should preface this by saying I'm not running or playing any HS games right now. But of the books I buy, I like the settings best, followed by "utility" books (grimoire, equipment, etc.), and then the genre books last.

 

The main reason being, if I'm going to make up stuff, I can do it with the core books. But if I'm going to be lazy (which would be far more likely for me), I'd like to just whip out a setting or mini-settings, make a few changes here and there, and then just roll with it. I really doubt I'd have time to make up a full setting from scratch. I certainly would have the confidence to do so right now (inexperienced at GMing). But the time thing seems more critical; who has that nowadays? Saving time is generally why I pay for books.

 

Stuff that I'd be kinda interested playing are Tuala Morn, Valdorian Age, Hudson City Shadows, After the Bomb (Gamma World from Post Apoc), and Moonshattered Earth. Mostly because I thought the settings (or mini-settings) were darn cool. It's nice if you can roll your own stuff, and have the time, but I'd guess that the setting books would have a lot of potential if Hero could expand beyond what seems to be a small core base.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I think that Paizo has shown that it's possible to sell a setting even if the writing is mediocre, as long as the setting is accessible (ie easy for players and GM's to get their heads around). Paizo is selling the hell out of Pathfinder Campaign Supplements, Player guides and even Adventures. None of the stuff is written super well, but it's all decent enough with full color artwork on glossy paper. Perhaps their secret sauce is their placement as D&D 3.6 (ie the game you play if you hate D&D 4th), but I think that everything they write has lots of fun inside.

[gojira]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

My goal here is "can we figure anything out that would improve Hero enough to make it commercially viable?" I don't know of we can, being just fans and working out side the game industry and all, but it might be useful to try.

 

What I was trying to converge on would be some combination of rules + supplements that would accomplish that. I assume you need supplements of some sort to be an on-going concern. No one could just sell one rule book and leave it as that. So what would sell, and in connection with what else?

 

My thought: rules medium -- cut down the current two books to what would be essentially an expanded basic rules book, with all the rules, but not the options or expanded discussion. Hopefully that works out to around 200 pages or so.

 

Then what? People like the idea of "all the rules in one spot" but I was not pleased, ultimately, with Hero's attempts at those products. I supported them when they were announced and I bought them, but after getting them in my hands and reading through them, I think a rules-light re-print isn't the way to go. The rules-light approach is ultimately unfulfilling, and the re-print is ultimately a poor use of paper and an extra expense for both publisher and consumer.

 

So, my idea was simply to take 3 or 4 of the best settings, and make them a mini-setting in the main, slimmed down rule book. Get all the rules -- the real rules that every product would use and reference -- and get a setting and a game (or three) with the rule book so you can play your first game right away. That's what came with the 3rd edition rules, it's how I got started, and I think some "back to your roots" examination of the game system might be in order. Of course, the full settings should be available also, separately, for those who want them.

 

I'm concerned that some folks are saying "I like the genre books, not settings" because it kind of flies in the face of what I think would be best. I assume folks could kit bash and make up their own stuff with just the basic rule book, but I know that can be hard. I prefer to take a setting and kit bash it, but that's just me. Other game systems seem to do OK with a rule book + settings combination, so I do wonder if the roll-your-own folks would be able to get by with out the generic genre treatments.

 

So that's it, my big idea. A rules medium book with three or four mini-settings. Let's say the mini settings are Champions, Tuala Morn, STORMlords, and a pulp setting of some sort. I think a lot of folks would shell out for a 350 page book with all of that in it. And by "a lot" I mean to include many folks who aren't currently buying Hero products.

 

This would work out like 5er, but in reverse. Rather than going bigger and adding explanations like 5er did, the 6er book would go slimmer. The original two books could be kept as PDFs, which would allow folks to purchase them if wanted, if they feel they need the full explanations.

 

Well there it is. All of you can kick it around now.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I don't think the problem is what mix of products Hero Games was publishing. The problem is the shrinking of the pen-and-paper RPG hobby, and the weak economy in general. I suspect that Hero's percentage of RPG players is about as good as it's ever been. The main problem is that the now-smaller number of players that represents, and the amount of money they have available to spend, is no longer enough to support the company as it had been. Even if some kind of strategy change could increase the percentage of RPG players drawn to Hero (a prospect I'm dubious of, although of course it's possible), it would need to be a sizable percentage increase, because the raw numbers of RPG players seem to be declining all the time.

 

To me, the real question is, "Is there anything we can do to increase the popularity of pen-and-paper RPGing as a whole?" Because even if someone came up with a brilliant idea that got Hero an extra 20% of the RPG market (which would be amazing), it would still probably only be a delaying action. It would be like gaining an extra 20% of the buggy whip market, or TV tube manufacturing. Getting a bigger piece of a vanishing pie won't fill you up for long...

[djkester]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

@Derek, do you have a source for your comment, "The problem is the shrinking of the pen-and-paper RPG hobby" i've been doing reading on this over the last couple of years and it seems that the information on RPG sales is very hard to find. I'm hoping you know of a source.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

What follows is intended to be constructive criticism, and I hope it is taken in that spirit.

 

Fantasy Hero, the 6E version, is a totally awesome book if I want to sit down and create a fantasy setting and eventually run it using the HERO System.

 

Fantasy Hero, the first edition (self contained rules plus campaigning material plus source material), is a totally awesome book if I want to get a few friends together, make up some characters, and play.

 

What we need is a book that I can sit down with, crack it open, and be playing within fifteen minutes. This is irrespective of whether it has self contained rules, or even a "setting" as in a world in which to adventure. For Fantasy Hero, let's say: here are some sample characters you can customize. Here is a weapon list. Here are some spells, some magic items, some monsters. Here is a short adventure with some brief notes on the world in which it is located, along with its NPCs and a map, along with some additional adventure hooks.

 

After that, then support the heck out of the genre.

 

As far as sheer amount of gaming is concerned, since 1985 I've gotten a lot more out of the slim first edition book than all of the Fantasy Hero books that have come out since.

 

I might very well be in the small minority of Hero gamers in this, and if so I accept that happily, but the Hero Universe never really grabbed me. I remember being awesomely grabbed by Champions 3e and the implied universe that came from the tantalizing mentions of VIPER and UNTIL and Mechanon and the other sample characters; they were "Champions" the way Bigby's Floating Hand and Mordenkainen's Ice Sphere were D&D. Fantasy Hero needs its implied setting; Champions definitely does. Metasetting.

 

The Hero Universe, and the "official" Champions Universe as part of it, became... metaplot. When 4e turned the implied setting into Champions Universe for the first time, thence to the Hero Universe metaplot, I started being a little less grabbed. I think it was the notion of "We are pulling all of those mentions into one coherent universe," with the implication that you are playing in this universe, that put me off. It was the pulling together of it all. If there had been something somewhere that said "This is a Champions Universe, one of many; here are some things you can use in it," I probably would have been a lot more enthused. But it has kind of felt like there has been one the Champions Universe. I know there's nothing that says that in any of the books, but when a book is part of a larger setting I feel like it's harder to use outside of that setting.

 

When Mechanon stopped being "'s former robot servant" and became "The Champions' former robot servant," I started feeling like I couldn't use Mechanon in my own character's backstories anymore without tying it into the Champions' world.

 

We need metasetting, not metaplot. With the Hero Universe, I get the sense that Tyrranax is out there and Istvatha v'Han and the Turakian Age, and Dr. Destroyer blew up Detroit and the Champions stopped Mechanon from blowing up Phoenix... it feels like there isn't room for my games. There was a subtle difference in feeling between the implied setting found in the villains from Enemies I through III and a universe book followed by expansions of the characters and groups and whatnot in that universe. I am fully aware that there are lots of folks who absolutely love this. I absolutely do not want to say, don't support those people. If there's money in it, do support those people. In fact, why not a "living" Champions Universe?

 

But it would be nice to have setting material that isn't tied in to other setting material.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

@Derek' date=' do you have a source for your comment, "The problem is the shrinking of the pen-and-paper RPG hobby" i've been doing reading on this over the last couple of years and it seems that the information on RPG sales is very hard to find. I'm hoping you know of a source. [/quote']No proof. Just observation, anecdotal support, and common sense.

[The Main Man]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

What follows is intended to be constructive criticism, and I hope it is taken in that spirit.

 

Fantasy Hero, the 6E version, is a totally awesome book if I want to sit down and create a fantasy setting and eventually run it using the HERO System.

 

Fantasy Hero, the first edition (self contained rules plus campaigning material plus source material), is a totally awesome book if I want to get a few friends together, make up some characters, and play.

 

What we need is a book that I can sit down with, crack it open, and be playing within fifteen minutes. This is irrespective of whether it has self contained rules, or even a "setting" as in a world in which to adventure. For Fantasy Hero, let's say: here are some sample characters you can customize. Here is a weapon list. Here are some spells, some magic items, some monsters. Here is a short adventure with some brief notes on the world in which it is located, along with its NPCs and a map, along with some additional adventure hooks.

 

After that, then support the heck out of the genre.

 

As far as sheer amount of gaming is concerned, since 1985 I've gotten a lot more out of the slim first edition book than all of the Fantasy Hero books that have come out since.

 

I might very well be in the small minority of Hero gamers in this, and if so I accept that happily, but the Hero Universe never really grabbed me. I remember being awesomely grabbed by Champions 3e and the implied universe that came from the tantalizing mentions of VIPER and UNTIL and Mechanon and the other sample characters; they were "Champions" the way Bigby's Floating Hand and Mordenkainen's Ice Sphere were D&D. Fantasy Hero needs its implied setting; Champions definitely does. Metasetting.

 

The Hero Universe, and the "official" Champions Universe as part of it, became... metaplot. When 4e turned the implied setting into Champions Universe for the first time, thence to the Hero Universe metaplot, I started being a little less grabbed. I think it was the notion of "We are pulling all of those mentions into one coherent universe," with the implication that you are playing in this universe, that put me off. It was the pulling together of it all. If there had been something somewhere that said "This is a Champions Universe, one of many; here are some things you can use in it," I probably would have been a lot more enthused. But it has kind of felt like there has been one the Champions Universe. I know there's nothing that says that in any of the books, but when a book is part of a larger setting I feel like it's harder to use outside of that setting.

 

When Mechanon stopped being "'s former robot servant" and became "The Champions' former robot servant," I started feeling like I couldn't use Mechanon in my own character's backstories anymore without tying it into the Champions' world.

 

We need metasetting, not metaplot. With the Hero Universe, I get the sense that Tyrranax is out there and Istvatha v'Han and the Turakian Age, and Dr. Destroyer blew up Detroit and the Champions stopped Mechanon from blowing up Phoenix... it feels like there isn't room for my games. There was a subtle difference in feeling between the implied setting found in the villains from Enemies I through III and a universe book followed by expansions of the characters and groups and whatnot in that universe. I am fully aware that there are lots of folks who absolutely love this. I absolutely do not want to say, don't support those people. If there's money in it, do support those people. In fact, why not a "living" Champions Universe?

 

But it would be nice to have setting material that isn't tied in to other setting material.

I agree with this, now that you mention it. While I appreciate a setting having history, side it can provide plot hooks, most of the time I've noticed that PCs pay more attention and care more about history of their own game rather than the history of the setting they play in.

 

I think that the HERO universe is still relatively reasonable in its use of metaplot, but that does remind me of one of the reasons I dislike the L5R and Rifts settings

[djkester]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

@Chris Goodwin,

 

agree.

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

What follows is intended to be constructive criticism, and I hope it is taken in that spirit.

 

Fantasy Hero, the 6E version, is a totally awesome book if I want to sit down and create a fantasy setting and eventually run it using the HERO System.

 

Fantasy Hero, the first edition (self contained rules plus campaigning material plus source material), is a totally awesome book if I want to get a few friends together, make up some characters, and play.

 

What we need is a book that I can sit down with, crack it open, and be playing within fifteen minutes. This is irrespective of whether it has self contained rules, or even a "setting" as in a world in which to adventure. For Fantasy Hero, let's say: here are some sample characters you can customize. Here is a weapon list. Here are some spells, some magic items, some monsters. Here is a short adventure with some brief notes on the world in which it is located, along with its NPCs and a map, along with some additional adventure hooks.

 

After that, then support the heck out of the genre.

 

As far as sheer amount of gaming is concerned, since 1985 I've gotten a lot more out of the slim first edition book than all of the Fantasy Hero books that have come out since.

 

I might very well be in the small minority of Hero gamers in this, and if so I accept that happily, but the Hero Universe never really grabbed me. I remember being awesomely grabbed by Champions 3e and the implied universe that came from the tantalizing mentions of VIPER and UNTIL and Mechanon and the other sample characters; they were "Champions" the way Bigby's Floating Hand and Mordenkainen's Ice Sphere were D&D. Fantasy Hero needs its implied setting; Champions definitely does. Metasetting.

 

The Hero Universe, and the "official" Champions Universe as part of it, became... metaplot. When 4e turned the implied setting into Champions Universe for the first time, thence to the Hero Universe metaplot, I started being a little less grabbed. I think it was the notion of "We are pulling all of those mentions into one coherent universe," with the implication that you are playing in this universe, that put me off. It was the pulling together of it all. If there had been something somewhere that said "This is a Champions Universe, one of many; here are some things you can use in it," I probably would have been a lot more enthused. But it has kind of felt like there has been one the Champions Universe. I know there's nothing that says that in any of the books, but when a book is part of a larger setting I feel like it's harder to use outside of that setting.

 

When Mechanon stopped being "'s former robot servant" and became "The Champions' former robot servant," I started feeling like I couldn't use Mechanon in my own character's backstories anymore without tying it into the Champions' world.

 

We need metasetting, not metaplot. With the Hero Universe, I get the sense that Tyrranax is out there and Istvatha v'Han and the Turakian Age, and Dr. Destroyer blew up Detroit and the Champions stopped Mechanon from blowing up Phoenix... it feels like there isn't room for my games. There was a subtle difference in feeling between the implied setting found in the villains from Enemies I through III and a universe book followed by expansions of the characters and groups and whatnot in that universe. I am fully aware that there are lots of folks who absolutely love this. I absolutely do not want to say, don't support those people. If there's money in it, do support those people. In fact, why not a "living" Champions Universe?

 

But it would be nice to have setting material that isn't tied in to other setting material.

 

I very much agree. I will add that adapting characters, items, spells, and the like from setting material is often faster and easier than creating it from scratch. While I only know one person who runs the "champions universe" everyone I know lifts the elements - characters, ideas, organizations - they like from it for their games. Sometimes whole cloth. Sometimes with the serial numbers filed off.

 

In terms of genre books, the only sections I use are those that include pregenerated plug-and-play elements: packages, super-skills, characters. The other stuff I never even look at. The same pretty much goes for the main rules. I may glance at them once in a blue moon, but the "system" oriented books I use the most are the ones that have pregenerated stuff I can use - powers, grimoire, etc. - be it as is or tweaked.

 

I also agree about meta-plot style supplements for settings (let alone the odious meta-setting mess). I run games using an implied setting, or just certain elements from it. The last thing I want is the line developers pet ideas about plot interfering with the plot my game is following. This is something I liked about Harnworld. It assumed a snapshot of a certain date and fleshed out the world at that point rather than moving forward.

 

Having the toolkit available for tweakers is a critical element of the Hero-way. But beyond those core books, there is no reason the game can't be presented via playable settings.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I agree with both Chris Goodwin and Vondy.

 

While having a great and detailed background can help a GM generate content, most players couldn't care less. They want to know who the various good, neutral and bad parties are so they can weave their character's background around those posts. They want to hear "Yes, I love that background and your character" they hate "Sorry that background doesn't fit the narrow background of the campaign". Many settings forget that the PC's are the heroes of the book, not the GM's mega powerful NPC's.

 

So old school style Settings books that can build on stuff that has already appeared in the Genre Book. Enough stuff to allow play right away (ie Packages, Super-skill/Talents, Weapons, spells other setting specific stuff). Away from that annoying over all hero metaplot, which turned everything into Champions background stuff and ruined pretty much everything. Also titles that make it feel like an RPG supplement and not a Text book . ie The Western Shores = Good, Terrakian Age = Bad Text Book.

 

I would also love to see less cold history in NPC backgrounds and more POV text like Champions New Millennium did with their NPCs. CNM made me want to play in their world, even with the annoying bits. CU since 5th has left me cold.