How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hello all,

 

An interesting point developed in the thread bring out the old. I described what I did for an 'update' to Frizbee and another poster commented that he din't considered it an update but more of a new character. I think that this would be a wondrful discussion topic. And I put it here cause though the question came up in Champions, this of course is a nongenre type question.

 

For myself, I consider the character an upgrade or reboot if the essence of the said character is the same.

For example when I discussed Frisbee, I gave her a new name-Disk Master, changed the Albino from natural to accident, and gender. The stats are the same, the damage and special effect are the same, only bought in 5th instead of 1st ed.

 

Now for a new character though-I took Cobra (from 1st and is renamed King Cobra in 4th) kept his characteristics and pretty much his background, expect of snakes its dinosaurs and called him the Dino King! And maybe a power or two added.

 

So lets hear what your opinion is on it.

[Reality]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

If within the same campaign and connected by a single shared history, I consider it one character. If the character's history changes, you reboot history from scratch, or can no longer be considered part of that character (the old one dies and the new one rises phoenix-like from the ashes, for example, or do a permanent Mental Transform), you have a new character.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

I would have to consider the workover of Frizbee and King Cobra to be new characters; Reality makes a good point there.

 

I revamp characters all the time. Sometimes it is to upgrade them to keep up with the power level of the campaign (same character). Sometimes it is just a few tweaks and a change of sfx to give me a quick adversary for the heroes, especially one-shot monsters, demon-hordes, or rounding out a supervillain team quickly (new character). And sometimes I take the basic concept for character from an old campaign and import it into a new campaign. Depending on circumstances, that could be essentially the same character or a new one altogether.

[Vulcan]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

I think it depends much more on the attitudes of the person playing the new/old character. If you intend it to be the same character, you'll play them the same way you used to. If you intend it to be a new character, you'll play them differently.

 

The numbers on the sheet are just that; numbers. They are not the character. Properly speaking, they are the capabilities and limitations the character operates under in game. The character shows itself slightly in the Complications section, but even that is not the character.

 

The character is the person behind the numbers. And if the player want it to be the same person, then it's the same person.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

This is most likely one of those 'I'll know it when I see it' categories that will vary from person to person.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

All the characters, I make, regardless of system or setting, exist in sort of my own mental continuity.

 

So I don't tend to just pop one character out of one story and insert them into another unless there is some plausible in game reason for me to do so (and there have been many times)

 

As such, doing something as dramatic as changing a characters name, gender and background story but leaving most of the stats the same is, to me, making a fundamentally new character.

[screamingtongue]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

As such' date=' doing something as dramatic as changing a characters name, gender and background story but leaving most of the stats the same is, to me, making a fundamentally new character.[/quote']

 

I agree with this statement. Changing them all together makes a fundamentally new character. Changing any of them individually might not. People can assume new identities without changing who they are, so a name change does not fundamentally alter a person. Who we are is not strictly determined by our gender, either, so while remaking a character in a different gender might be a drastic change, it doesn't, I think, mean a whole new person.

 

Changing a character's history is a tougher subject. I think what matters is the degree of the change, and whether or not the change is keeping in tone and theme with the original history. Obviously if Bruce Wayne's parents had owned a candy factory and had never been shot, that would seriously change who he grew up to be, and thus change who he was. But if they had been killed in a terrorist attack instead of being shot, that would seriously alter his history without necessarily changing the character as we know him. He could still very well grow up to be ruthlessly devoted to protecting the people of Gotham.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

I think part of this topic goes beyond RPG modeling of characters.

 

One of the big reasons that DC Comics published Crisis on Infinite Earths was to deal with the inconsistencies of having multiple versions of essentially the same character (Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, etc..) on different versions of reality (Earth 1, Earth 2, etc...). Superman is also a special case in that there are multiple 1-off versions of the character across multiple comic companies (DC's Shazam/Captain Marvel, Image's Supreme, Marvel's Gladiator, Hyperion, Sentry, just to name a few...).

[Bloodstone]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

I agree with this statement. Changing them all together makes a fundamentally new character. Changing any of them individually might not. People can assume new identities without changing who they are, so a name change does not fundamentally alter a person. Who we are is not strictly determined by our gender, either, so while remaking a character in a different gender might be a drastic change, it doesn't, I think, mean a whole new person.

 

Changing a character's history is a tougher subject. I think what matters is the degree of the change, and whether or not the change is keeping in tone and theme with the original history. Obviously if Bruce Wayne's parents had owned a candy factory and had never been shot, that would seriously change who he grew up to be, and thus change who he was. But if they had been killed in a terrorist attack instead of being shot, that would seriously alter his history without necessarily changing the character as we know him. He could still very well grow up to be ruthlessly devoted to protecting the people of Gotham.

 

I've had characters change their names plenty of times and if there is an in game reason for it, that's cool Even if the in game reason was as simple as "Felt like I needed a change" or "On the run from the law"...

 

I've had characters change genders, orientation, species and legal living status before and again, if there's an in game transformation, this is a different matter entirely.

 

Even histories can be change in the course of a game, what with time travel, implanted false memories, reality warping retcon punches and what have you.

 

That's all just a part of character growth and development

 

Lets take my Pulp character: Frankie McAdrian is a quintessentially quirky detective from Chicago that fights Nazis and talks to angels.

 

I could file off some serial numbers and change him into a smoking hot Russian woman named Ivanna Blavatsky, who uses her psychic powers to solve crimes and look glamorous while doing it. Almost nothing would have to chance stat wise to do this. The sheet is the same except for name, gender and history. But Ivanna and Frankie are fundamentally different.

 

Sure, they share a skeleton, but the meat of the characters is different.

[Vondy]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

As such' date=' doing something as dramatic as changing a characters name, gender and background story but leaving most of the stats the same is, to me, making a fundamentally new character.[/quote']

 

Agreed. Two people will play the same mechanical construct in very different ways. Its the history, personality, tactics, and outward aesthetic that render a character unique.

[Christopher]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

I wouldn't say history is that important. As long as the altered history still creates the same (or a sufficiently similar) motivation to be heroic/villanious nothing has to change on the character.

 

It's quite common in remakes (tv-comics; games) to alter the history of a character but Clayface still is Clayface. No matter how he got his powers this time.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

So I think that the logical question is, what is the term for characters that are different from the originals but you use as the version, revamp, retcon, etc? Fwiw, I find it amusing now reading wikipedia that the characters I thought were the original were not. I thought the Barry Allen Flash was the first. And as Christoper mentioned, characters like Clayface are different from the comic book versus the cartoon.

[dmjalund]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

but few people see Jay Garrick and Barry Allen as the same person

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

While Jay and Barry were both "the Flash" I don't think they were ever considered the same character, were they?

[Lucius]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

When I was trying to learn Mage, I decided to create a character who was fundamentally different than any I'd want to play, just as an exercise.

 

I created a female nurse, in her 30's, specializing in geriatric care, whose background included the fact that she had secretly resorted to euthanasia for a few people who were suffering and had no other real hope of relief.

 

Come game time, someone wants to play who doesn't have a character, so I give him the sheet with all the numbers. He looks at the character sheet I'd written out and gets:

 

An elderly male who had been a Mengele-like mad Nazi doctor before his Awakening and now regarded his former crimes with horror and revulsion.

 

Mechanically identical. Two very different characters, linked by medical background, magic tradition, and some sort of dark secret involving death.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Can you tell these two palindromedaries apart?

[Bloodstone]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

It's quite common in remakes (tv-comics; games) to alter the history of a character but Clayface still is Clayface. No matter how he got his powers this time.

 

Different characters, same name, similar history.

 

Batman: The Animated Series, Batman: The Brave and Bold, The Batman, the Dark Night films and the comics are all distinct interpretations of the same character, but they are different characters.

 

By contrast, Batman: The Animated Series, The New Batman Adventures, Superman, The New Batman & Superman Adventures, The Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, Static Shock and Batman Beyond all feature versions of Bruce Wayne/Batman that are the same character and take place in the same continuity.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

So I think that the logical question is' date=' what is the term for characters that are different from the originals but you use as the version, revamp, retcon, etc?[/quote']

 

Retcon: Changing an existing character by altering the past (or at least the perception of the past)

 

Remake: Recreating the same character by starting over from scratch in a new continuity.

 

Homage: Creating a new character that is inspired by another character.

 

Ripoff: Stealing all the good ideas from another character, while changing just enough to avoid being sued More blatant ripoffs barely change anything at all, which tends to be a bit more acceptable at the game table than in the actual industry (well unless the character is an obvious parody).

 

Fwiw, I find it amusing now reading wikipedia that the characters I thought were the original were not. I thought the Barry Allen Flash was the first.

 

Jay Garick was the first Flash, but Jay and Barry lived on alternate Earths. Jay was actually a comic book character in Barry's world...

 

But they were never intended to be the same character, even though they used the same name.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

Jay was retconned back into the main timeline as the golden age flash (as was alan scott, the original green lantern) and eventually even tapped into the speed force. It's been a long, convoluted "continuity"...

[Bloodstone]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

Jay was retconned back into the main timeline as the golden age flash (as was alan scott' date=' the original green lantern) and eventually even tapped into the speed force. It's been a long, convoluted "continuity"...[/quote']

 

Indeed, a bunch of characters from Earth-2 (and other earths) were brought into the main continuity with the Crisis.

 

And it's all changed again post Flashpoint with the introduction of the New DCU...

[Christopher]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

but few people see Jay Garrick and Barry Allen as the same person

According to Wikipedia, there are at least four distinct Flashes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_(comics)

 

Found another intersting word to describe a "similar but not identic" character:

(new) Incarnation

[phoenix240]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

This is most likely one of those 'I'll know it when I see it' categories that will vary from person to person.

 

and even from character to character with the same person. It really depends on what that person considers the core aspects of the character in question. Changing Superman's gender might not be too big a deal but changing Wonder Woman's would be, for example.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

According to Wikipedia' date=' there are at least four distinct Flashes:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_%28comics%29Found another intersting word to describe a "similar but not identic" character:(new) Incarnation[/quote']Generally refered to in comic-speak as a Legacy Hero.

[Christopher]

Re: How much change to a character do you consider it a new character.

 

Generally refered to in comic-speak as a Legacy Hero.

Not nessesarily. A character can be a new incarnation, without having the "original" in his world. As far as I understand DC made sure to retcon characters so the later incarnation would become a legacy character - but they were not designed that way. You yourself described this process for Flash and Green Lantern.

 

That raises a question:

If a earlier character is retconned so the more recent incarnation becomes a legacy character - would it still be the same character?