Hitting 'Til It Hurts

[Reality]

I know that in general we don't take this kind of thing into consideration, but if you decided to run a realistic game where punching an object / person always ran the risk of damage to the punching hand, how would you design that house rule?

 

Would you rule that a certain percentage of the damage done (both STUN and BODY) to the target always gets taken by the punching hand, up to the limit of breaking that hand if it takes 1/3 or more of the character's total BODY (or if the hand gets Impaired/Disabled)? Would you reflect a portion of the damage blocked by the target's PD back on him in that same way? Would you use the Wounded rules in the above scenarios? Would you only apply this rule if the target had resistant PD.

 

I ask mainly because I was thinking of hand to hand combat between a human and my revamp of a Dalek, and thinking about how much punching a metal character with a human hand would hurt, realistically.

 

It also reminds me of the early Superman/Spider-Man crossover where Spidey nearly broke his hands trying to kidney punch the Man of Steel.

 

I realize that one of the published books (I think Champions Powers) had a Power that did this, but I'm thinking more along the lines of a general rule than a Power bought with points.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

I would recommend only applying such a rule IF the attack does no Knockback (or Knockdown if using those rules) and no Body. This is similar in concept to the Move Through KB rules. In that case I would then compare the # of Damage Classes of the attack to the attackers own PD (not including Limited defenses like 'Combat Luck', 'body armor', etc..). IF the damage BODY is higher than the attacker's PD then they might take some Body to their hand or foot used to 'throw' the attack.

 

If you just want a target to have a higher chance of damaging his HTH attackers see the "damage shield/surface" version of the AOE rules.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

If I implemented something like this, I'd keep in mind that when using hit locations, ALL Stun and Body damage to the hands (and feet) takes a x1/2 modifier. Damage done to the attacker by punching a target too hard will automatically go to the "hand" hit location, so it's not gonna do much if the attacker has decent defenses that cover his hands. (or his feet, if he's kicking)

[Lucius]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

If I implemented something like this' date=' I'd keep in mind that when using hit locations, ALL Stun and Body damage to the hands (and feet) takes a x1/2 modifier. Damage done to the attacker by punching a target too hard will automatically go to the "hand" hit location, so it's not gonna do much if the attacker has decent defenses that cover his hands. (or his feet, if he's kicking)[/quote']

 

I believe hit location modifiers apply AFTER defense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Puncher

[thewomble]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

I read the title as "hitting it 'til it hurts"

Sorry, maybe it's just me....

[Christopher]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

If I implemented something like this' date=' I'd keep in mind that when using hit locations, ALL Stun and Body damage to the hands (and feet) takes a x1/2 modifier. Damage done to the attacker by punching a target too hard will automatically go to the "hand" hit location, so it's not gonna do much if the attacker has decent defenses that cover his hands. (or his feet, if he's kicking)[/quote']

Not all would go to the Hand. Headbuts would propably go to the head (of the attacker).

Also I would only consider Resitant PD defined as Armor for this one - normal PD can just being resistant to pain after all. I am not certain about the relation between damage dealt and PD. I would also exclude DC from martial Arts a little, as they are usually "doing more damage to them and less to you, without using more force".

 

How about:

Every point of resistant defenses means the attacker autoamtically takes 1 point STUN when hitting, but never more than the DC used in the attack.

 

Example:

Wall with rPD 8 get's hit by a character with 2d6. It hurts, but nothing of game relevance (no STUN or Body). Now he haymakers (6d6) against the wall. That propably hurts. A lot (6 STUN).

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

I believe hit location modifiers apply AFTER defense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Puncher

 

It helps either way., and in any case I would think some decent defense for the hands would be de rigeur if this rule was in use.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

It helps either way.' date=' and in any case I would think some decent defense for the hands would be [i']de rigeur[/i] if this rule was in use.

 

I'm inclined to agree it seems like the most likely result will be characters buying hand protection and/or using foci. And, perhaps, unhappy and frustrated players - not only do my attacks do no damage, but I get hurt in the process.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

It might be best to use this as a manifestation of someone's Unluck...broken hand (Impairing wound) after punching a dalek and not being like unto a thing of iron.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

If I implemented something like this' date=' I'd keep in mind that when using hit locations, ALL Stun and Body damage to the hands (and feet) takes a x1/2 modifier. Damage done to the attacker by punching a target too hard will automatically go to the "hand" hit location, so it's not gonna do much if the attacker has decent defenses that cover his hands. (or his feet, if he's kicking)[/quote']

 

Just treat every attack as a Move-through where the hand or foot takes the damage (1/2 the damage they deal, then 1/2 again for the hit location modifier, applied against their base PD.)

 

You do a 8d6 Offensive Strike Punch, hit, and deal 28 STUN / 8 BODY; applied to hand, 7 STUN / 2 BODY, against say, 6 PD = 1 STUN. "Ow, my knuckle." Roll higher damage? 32 STUN / 10 BODY - halved and halved again, 8 STUN, 3 BODY.

 

For a more "gritty" solution (though I question that breaking your own hand when you punch someone is inherently realistic) if you just halve it the once (hit location modifier), then our first example above would be 14 STUN / 4 BODY on the first hit, for 8 STUN to the person who punched. The second, 10 STUN. No BODY damage in either case.

 

I have had the real-life pleasure of punching someone and then thinking I had broke my hand, back in early high school, and that was with my probably 3-4 PD at the time - so I think the math works better in the latter example (halving only once) if that is what you are going for.

[Reality]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

I'm inclined to agree it seems like the most likely result will be characters buying hand protection and/or using foci. And' date=' perhaps, unhappy and frustrated players - not only do my attacks do no damage, but I get hurt in the process.[/quote']

 

I see no problem with players who think before they punch.

 

Hand wear could protect the character, but limit him in other ways...

 

Anyway if we only want the risk of damage rather than certainty, we could let the success of the attack effect the potential for damage. If we implement a "degree of success" rule for attacks, then the character might only risk injury if he scceeds exactly. If he hits by more than necessary, halve the damage, and if by more than half, takes no damage.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

A broken hand really depends on where you are punching somebody. If you are punching a guy in the jaw, you are likely going to feel. Punch a guy in the gut, you aren't likely to feel it, unless he's had a full belly.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

As others have pointed out, the Move-through rules are a clue as to how you should handle something like this. In most cases if the attack gets some Body damage through the targets defenses, the characters hand/foot shouldn't take any damage....the damaging energies are allowed to pass through to the target as intended. If however the Body of the attack doesn't do enough to exceed the Defense of the target, then apply some of the damage to the Hand location. I would say that only 1/2 of the Body and Stun rolled is applied to the target's hand or foot and once this is compared to the Physical Defense of the attacker, the Body damage is halved again for Hit Location result. Remember though, for Impairing and Disabling wounds, the Body damage can be applied to the location before or after the Location modifier to determine Impairment or disabling. Thus someone who does 10 Body damage via a punch to someone wearing 12 resistant Defense powered armor does 5 Body to their hand, which is an impairing wound. They actually only take 3 Body damage from the attack (5/2 = 2.5) but anyone with a Body of 10 or less would be left with an "Impaired" hand (broken fingers or severely sprained wrist).

 

If you want this sort of thing to happen more often or be more severe, simply drop the initial 1/2 damage modifier and only apply the 1/2 damage modifier for hitting the hand or foot location. In which case in the above example, the character would take the full 10 Body damage to the hand, impairing it, but it is modified down to 5 actual Body damage to the character....and they have a useless hand with crushed finger joints that will take weeks to heal without divine or technological intervention...

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

And then ask yourself, very seriously, as a game master, if you really want or need that much "realism" in your game....

 

Idunno, maybe you do?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

And then ask yourself' date=' very seriously, as a game master, if you [i']really[/i] want or need that much "realism" in your game....

 

Idunno, maybe you do?

 

I would only use it in a game that strictly adhered to a more realistic level of physical interaction. And even then I would only use it if the character were striking a hard surface and exceeding the normal damage they do with their STR (like a Haymaker or Martial attack)

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

I'm inclined to agree it seems like the most likely result will be characters buying hand protection and/or using foci. And' date=' perhaps, unhappy and frustrated players - not only do my attacks do no damage, but I get hurt in the process.[/quote']

 

Well don't forget the martial artists who toughen their knuckles and joints for such occasion. For example include thrusting your hand into a bucket of sand or stones. Another is thru.They also get dis feat. deformed hands and probally a minor physical limitation -1 to dex rolls for fine motor skills.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

I'm inclined to agree it seems like the most likely result will be characters buying hand protection and/or using foci. And' date=' perhaps, unhappy and frustrated players - not only do my attacks do no damage, but I get hurt in the process.[/quote']

 

I see no problem with players who think before they punch.

 

Hand wear could protect the character, but limit him in other ways...

 

If HTH combat is the character's main combat skill, and using it means he does no damage and gets hurt in the process, I suspect he will be less than thrilled about the game. Especially when the Blaster, the Swordsman and the Mentalist don't risk similar damage. If they also can't damage the opponents, then I think we just get a frustrated player group who wonders why the GM has decided to place the team into a no win situation to show off his unbeatable Mary Sue/Marty Stu villain.

 

Wouldn't it be just as "realistic" if the Blaster's attacks ricochet and may injure friendly targets, the Swordsman's sword breaks and the Mentalist gets mental feedback?

[Christopher]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

If HTH combat is the character's main combat skill, and using it means he does no damage and gets hurt in the process, I suspect he will be less than thrilled about the game. Especially when the Blaster, the Swordsman and the Mentalist don't risk similar damage. If they also can't damage the opponents, then I think we just get a frustrated player group who wonders why the GM has decided to place the team into a no win situation to show off his unbeatable Mary Sue/Marty Stu villain.

 

Wouldn't it be just as "realistic" if the Blaster's attacks ricochet and may injure friendly targets, the Swordsman's sword breaks and the Mentalist gets mental feedback?

Depends on the genre. If it's realistic heroic level, some disadvantage to attackign armored people unarmed could be fitting.

But in superheroic games it's propably totally wrong in 95% of all campaings.

[Reality]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

If HTH combat is the character's main combat skill' date=' and using it means he does no damage and gets hurt in the process, I suspect he will be less than thrilled about the game. Especially when the Blaster, the Swordsman and the Mentalist don't risk similar damage. If they also can't damage the opponents, then I think we just get a frustrated player group who wonders why the GM has decided to place the team into a no win situation to show off his unbeatable Mary Sue/Marty Stu villain.Wouldn't it be just as "realistic" if the Blaster's attacks ricochet and may injure friendly targets, the Swordsman's sword breaks and the Mentalist gets mental feedback?[/quote']Based on some of the comments, including the above quoted one, I want to make it clear that I'm not proposing that we reduce the effectiveness of attacks. I just wondered how we'd reflect the fact that punching hurts the attacker's fist, if we were so inclined.I agree that other attack types don't suffer this drawback, but they do have drawbacks that HTH attacks don't. For example, HTH doesn't have the risk of the attack traveling its full range and hitting someone else, or risking psychic feedback, etc. I'd only implement such a rule on punches if it didn't unfairly disadvantage characters.

[Reality]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

Depends on the genre. If it's realistic heroic level, some disadvantage to attackign armored people unarmed could be fitting.

But in superheroic games it's propably totally wrong in 95% of all campaings.

 

In a superheroic campaign I wouldn't consider a blanket rule. I might make it the result of a botched attack roll at a critical failure. Then I might rule that the attack struck the target but the target takes no damage, and the attacker still must roll damage to see how much damage reflects back on the attacker. I might do that, if it suited the campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

Based on some of the comments' date=' including the above quoted one, I want to make it clear that I'm not proposing that we reduce the effectiveness of attacks. I just wondered how we'd reflect the fact that punching hurts the attacker's fist, if we were so inclined.I agree that other attack types don't suffer this drawback, but they do have drawbacks that HTH attacks don't. For example, HTH doesn't have the risk of the attack traveling its full range and hitting someone else, or risking psychic feedback, etc. I'd only implement such a rule on punches if it didn't unfairly disadvantage characters.[/quote']

 

Actually, as I posted that, I was reminded of gunfire at Daleks ricocheting - if the rule for HTH is introduced, then it would seem equitable to also include ricochet from ranged attacks. That's at least as common in source material as the character clutching his injured hand after throwing a punch.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

The Move Through analogy is a nice idea, but I think you have to factor the defenses of the target into the equation. No one is going to break their hand punching Mr. Fantastic, but they might if they hit Thing full force. For super hard characters I would make them pay for a damage shield. But if you want to apply this for a martial artist trying to punch through a brick wall or to a brawl in a fantasy tavern where someone is wearing plate armor then you would need some kind of guideline, like using the Move Through damage as suggested earlier.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

As noted before, you would also have to take the fighters skill as a martial artist into question and his emotional balance while throwing a punch. A trained martial artist with a level head could hit harder and longer than the average office worker who has just lost his temper.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

The Move Through analogy is a nice idea' date=' but I think you have to factor the defenses of the target into the equation. No one is going to break their hand punching Mr. Fantastic, but they might if they hit Thing full force. [/quote']

 

But which has the higher defenses? Ben's tough, but hurting Reed physically is pretty rare. The SFX of the defenses also come into play. Will you break your hand punching the Blob? He must have good defenses - he's gone toe to toe with the Hulk.

 

Seems like "super-hard" justifies buying a damage aura is the best approach.

[Christopher]

Re: Hitting 'Til It Hurts

 

But which has the higher defenses? Ben's tough' date=' but hurting Reed physically is pretty rare. The SFX of the defenses also come into play. Will you break your hand punching the Blob? He must have good defenses - he's gone toe to toe with the Hulk.[/quote']

I think Reed and Blob are both very good examples for Physical Damage Reduction or Damage Negation respecitively.