VPP Frequency?

[Ndreare]

In previous editions VPP was something we only used on the ocational character. But I am finding in 6th I see it fitting more often, and the balance seams better worked out by having control and pool figured seperatly.

 

My question is what is the general reception to VPPs? I allow and even encourage them but do others see it the same way?

[mayapuppies]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

Prior to 6E I never allowed them. However, I believe that was more to my ignorance of how they worked than any comment on VPP's in general.

 

In the Kamarathin setting I have several professions that use them, exclusively spell casters.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

VPPs, built right, are great.

 

By 'built right' I mean

 

1. that you should probably start with an overall concept, and all the powers should relate to that directly,

2. you should generally require a 'pick list' of pre-built powers and not allow people to disrupt play by building stuff on the fly,

3. you should be aware that you can use a VPP to, for instance, increase your DCV, which does not sound like that much of a biggie but if you have 60 points to play with it can make for a tedious game,

4. it has to make sense. Yes you can have a fire VPP that can technically be used for mind control because you have cleverly (and you should imagine I am raising an eyebrow at that point) defined your mind control as 'Beguiling Flames', but that is probably not what anyone had in mind until they came across a particularly recalcitrant guard and were trying to impress a pretty NPC by not torturing him for information,

 

I like the new structure of VPPs, and I like having them in the system, but I am often wary when they crop up. They have the potential to wreck plots and (cardinal sin) make proceedings boring by simply always having the right tool for the problem rather than thinking of a cunning way around it.

 

I'm not allowed to play characters with a VPP. Not more than once, anyway.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

I like them, but recognize that they require even more player-GM trust than most elements of the HERO System (which already requires a lot of player--GM trust). With good players, they're great; with abusive players, they're a gigantic pain-in-the-neck. The various pre-build books (Champions Powers, HERO System Grimoire, etc.) also make them vastly easier to use.

[Escafarc]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

I use them a lot for PCs though not always as the major power of a character. Almost every character has a MP or VPP.

[Bloodstone]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

I use them in quite a few of my builds. At a certain point, it's more cost effective than a large MP anyhow.

 

I still find most GM's are reluctant to let me play with VPP's, refusing virtually our of reflex, even when the VPP has a very tight concept and/or is highly limited.

[Christopher]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

I try to use them for my PC's. I think one of the most important parts is to communicate with the GM what Powers I want to have in them. I usually go over the list of powers and write down for each: Yes, No or Maybe.

Of course, this can't accomodate for every built. But if I write "Desolidification": No, then my character won't be able to walk through walls. There might still be abilities out there that have to be built with Desolid.

In addition to that, I also give my characters some "deadswitch" Complication. Sure my hero might have the right tool in his VPP, but does he actually wants to use it? If a specific use of the VPP would derail the story, then the GM can just say: "Your character does not feel like using it". And I have to come up with a in Character reason.

 

I also think the seperation of Pool and Control is a good thing. It allows things like the 60 Control, 120 Pool Equipment VPP or the 30 Controll, 10 Pool wich allows utility powers, but not in battle. Once i got my copy of the 5E handbook I even wondered why they did not do it that way in the first place and why 5E GM's don't allow it to be used that way.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

I use/allow them but most often to cover specific special effects and characters with broad reaching powers. They are quite rare as most of my group prefers pretty solidly defined powers but they have used them for Mages and power cosmic types. As NPCs I use them for high level mages and such but its easier to run with preset powers so the NPCs use a predefined list of spells.

 

 

I guess what it comes down to is that they are fairly common but well defined and limited in my campaigns.

[Markdoc]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

I use them a lot. NOt so much for NPCs, oddly enough, since I usually have enough on my plate without keeping an eye on the NPCs VPP, IYKWIM

But it's rare that at least one PC does not have a VPP in the game, and in the last campaign, roughly half the PCs did.

 

I do, however encourage pre-builds (to cut down on reconfigure time) and almost always require a tight definition*. I'd almost never allow for example a VPP defined as "magic spells" or "Super powers" for the reason Sean listed. It gets boring if you can generate every single power in the book.

 

*This applies to MP as well.

 

cheers, Mark

[McCoy]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

In the source material, seems like many characters have a VPP. That's how I would build, for example, Spiderman's web shooters. Most of the time he uses them for swinging, or as an entangle. But also has used them as a limited form of stretching to retrieve an otherwise out of reach object, or fired webbing into someone's eyes as a flash attack. Every once in a while will use them in a way he never has before, like the first time he made a parachute.

 

Building powers as a VPP encourages the player to think about their Sx and push the envelops in entertaining ways (IMHO).

[Bloodstone]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

In the source material' date=' seems like many characters have a VPP. That's how I would build, for example, Spiderman's web shooters. Most of the time he uses them for swinging, or as an entangle. But also has used them as a limited form of stretching to retrieve an otherwise out of reach object, or fired webbing into someone's eyes as a flash attack. Every once in a while will use them in a way he never has before, like the first time he made a parachute. [/quote']

 

I can totally see that, but I'd usually build such a character with a moderate sized MP and a decent Power and/or Inventor Skill roll(s).

[McCoy]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

I can totally see that' date=' but I'd usually build such a character with a moderate sized MP and a decent Power and/or Inventor Skill roll(s).[/quote']

Yes, could be built as a MP with new slots added with XP. But the MP approach doesn't allow for powers to be added "on the fly." IIRC Spidy once went up against Lava Man, was taking damage from LM's damage shield every time he punched him, whipped up some webbing boxing gloves. "Extra ED, only vs damage shield."

 

If the GM allows adding MP slots on the fly, then it's a moot point.

[Bloodstone]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

Yes, could be built as a MP with new slots added with XP. But the MP approach doesn't allow for powers to be added "on the fly." IIRC Spidy once went up against Lava Man, was taking damage from LM's damage shield every time he punched him, whipped up some webbing boxing gloves. "Extra ED, only vs damage shield."

 

If the GM allows adding MP slots on the fly, then it's a moot point.

 

That's exactly what the Power Skill is designed for though.

 

Plus if you ever upgrade that MP to a VPP, you'll need a Power skill anyhow, so may as well get it early on in your career

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

The infrequency/unique nature of the additional webbing uses makes me think of them as exercises of the Power Skill rather than a VPP. Of course, I tend to view VPPs as reserved for mystics, gadgeteers, and cosmic types. (Things like Brick Tricks VPPs tend to set my teeth on edge for anyone with less than a full Kryptonian assortment of powers, and even for Menton I preferred the Multipower approach to his 6th edition VPP.)

[Christopher]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

Yes ideally the webbing trick would be allowed as use of the powers Skill. But the problem with that is, that the power skill is not clearly defined - so it stands or falls with the GM. The VPP however is clearly defined. There are some ideas in the APG I 39, but the Boxing Glose will likely be above that guidelines.

[Bloodstone]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

Of course' date=' I tend to view VPPs as reserved for mystics, gadgeteers, and cosmic types. (Things like Brick Tricks VPPs tend to set my teeth on edge for anyone with less than a full Kryptonian assortment of powers, and even for Menton I preferred the Multipower approach to his 6th edition VPP.)[/quote']

 

I get that reaction a lot. Especially if someone utters the word "Cosmic" as a short hand way of saying No Skill Roll Required, Can Change as a Zero Phase Action

 

Personally, I see no reason to place an artificial limit on a tool like VPPs.

 

Sure, I will tend to build things like Brick Tricks or Utility belts as MP's, especially at the start of a characters career when they don't necessarily have that many tricks up their sleeves.

 

But once that pool gets to a certain size and cost, you outgrow the MP.

 

I see no reason to continue on that path when there is a superior and sometimes cheaper tool at hand.

[Martin2]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

Yes, could be built as a MP with new slots added with XP. But the MP approach doesn't allow for powers to be added "on the fly." IIRC Spidy once went up against Lava Man, was taking damage from LM's damage shield every time he punched him, whipped up some webbing boxing gloves. "Extra ED, only vs damage shield."

 

If the GM allows adding MP slots on the fly, then it's a moot point.

 

I think giving comic book characters with 50 years+ experience is a bad example for players to use for what they can do with their powers.

 

Most comic book characters do have a VPP as a writer can bring in new power every comic.

 

Spidey is a good (so bad example) he is a scientist and the ideal candidate for a VPP for his web shooters as the writters can come up with the flash attack, extra ED versus damage shield etc.

 

If you have a Spiderman clone (and not in deed Spiderman) how much investment should you allow if they have only just invested 20 points on swinging and 60 points on entangle and then they say "well its exactly the same as Spidermans web shooter so I want flash sight / hearing which he used in comic number xx, extra Ed versus damage shield in comic xy etc so can I use a power roll to simulate it?".

 

When the original Spiderman is a VPP powered by comic power.

[Christopher]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

When the original Spiderman is a VPP powered by comic power.

Cosmic (+2) Advantage has nothing to do with Cosmic Speical Effect.

It is a short, incredibly stupidly named, way to write "No Skill Roll +1" and "0-phase to Change +1".

[Bloodstone]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

Cosmic (+2) Advantage has nothing to do with Cosmic Speical Effect.

It is a short, incredibly stupidly named, way to write "No Skill Roll +1" and "0-phase to Change +1".

 

He's not talking about SFX

 

He said "powered by COMIC power" not coSmic power

[Christopher]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

He's not talking about SFX

 

He said "powered by COMIC power" not coSmic power

Oh, misread that

 

But seriously, I vote that we call it from now on "Effortless Change" instead of Cosmic.

[Ndreare]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

Frequently my players are inspired by characters from fcition. So I think Spiderman/Batman/darkness whatever are valid examples.

 

I think in 23 years of gaming no player has ever asked "hey can I make a guy like X but totally a neub". Instead they ask " I want to play a scientist with force manipulation likegreenlantaern" or "I want to make a tank like the Hulk".

[RexMundi]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

Love VPP's. Always have and I love them more even now. They add in that structured flexibility you see in other Super Hero genre games (for example), while not violating the "Gotta Pay to Play" HERO set up. I have noticed though that folks that are more, hmm, rigid in their thinking or just not good at doing stuff on the fly within the character concept, tend to be very Anti VPP, especially as a gm......

 

~Rex

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

Love VPP's. Always have and I love them more even now. They add in that structured flexibility you see in other Super Hero genre games (for example), while not violating the "Gotta Pay to Play" HERO set up. I have noticed though that folks that are more, hmm, rigid in their thinking or just not good at doing stuff on the fly within the character concept, tend to be very Anti VPP, especially as a gm......

 

~Rex

 

Diplomatically said

[Ice9]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

I use them pretty frequently. For broad powers, covering all the applications of one versatile power, and simplifying utility belts.

They're also useful for making sure you don't run into the "the character should be able to do X, but I forgot to buy it" problem.

 

I'd agree that super-broad SFX like "magic" or "cosmic energy" or "ultra tech" are usually undesirable. I'm not going to say they should never be used, but it's a big caution area, more so than VPPs in general.

[Christopher]

Re: VPP Frequency?

 

One point where I tried to use them:

Bricks. But not Brick ticks, but Brick Immunities. It's a borg-style "adaption" VPP (No Skill Roll, Trigger, NCC, between one phase and one turn to "activate" a power). The downside is that you need to be affected by an attack/environment at least once before it works. It's mostly so the character can overcome any weather condition and NND's, not to increase the defense in general (+10 PD for example is not what is intended).

 

The GM has multiple ways to circumvent it: Just let the enemies focus on my character first (so there is not enough time to adapt), use a +1/4 IPE to make the target Effect Invisible (so the body has no idea what is causing the problems so it can't adapt) or just overflood the body with adverse conditions so there is no more "place" in the Pool.

 

 

I used something similar for a Gadgteer hero. To build small stuff like Binoculars, Environmental adaption, etc., ...

 

Ironman propably has a Air Conditioning in that armor and Bricks should be resistant to a wide range of attacks, but actually buying all at once might be to expensive. Also it leaves no room for the defenses being overwhelmed by the environment.