How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

[darkarus99]

I am trying to set up a balanced magic system for a high fantasy setting where magic is powerful yet not so far that in order to survive the whole party need magical defenses and items to balance them against mages. And I was wondering if anyone has a system that has worked in the past and tips to keep traditional fighters happy with their role in the combat.

[Markdoc]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

The trick is to give the non-magic types something to do. Usually, that something is combat, although rogue-types are possible.

 

To make fighters useful in combat, magic can't be instant or easy: if a Mage can cast a spell as easily as a fighter swings a sword, the fighter will soon be useless. Typically, you can create this balance with limitations like extra time, incantations, gestures, etc.

 

Another thing is to allows "powers as skills". If the fighter can buy an arrea of effect RKA defined as strikinging everyone adjacent with his sword, or an AP RKA, defined as mighty blow, he's going to be on a more level footing.

 

Cheers, Mark

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

A Blade in the back will ruin ainy Mages day. Including an Archmage.

 

IMOHO

 

QM

[Christopher]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

I am trying to set up a balanced magic system for a high fantasy setting where magic is powerful yet not so far that in order to survive the whole party need magical defenses and items to balance them against mages. And I was wondering if anyone has a system that has worked in the past and tips to keep traditional fighters happy with their role in the combat.

Generally Hero is already more balanced than D&D. The simple reason: Armor protects against Magic normally. Make certain there aren't too many Spell that target Unusual Defenses or NND's.

 

Another big balancing factor is Endurance. A fighter takes a lot of 0 END damage from his weapons, while a mage has to pay for every single DC. The mage is more likely to run out of endurance.

 

One important question is "how is magic learned/paid for". The default way is to let magician buy thier spells with Character Points. Especially when Frameworks aren't allowed, mages tend to be weaker than Fighters: Fighters can just go to a shop, while mages have to put -1 to -3 worth of Limitations on thier powers just to make them "payable" on a normal budget.

The easiest way to make certain both stay about equal, is the use of Resouce Pools. You can have a complete armory/wizards library worth of weapons and armor/spells at home, but you can only take so much along on any adventure. If you want to carry more, you have to pay character points (to simulate the increased power you have).

You might still pick up that special magical übersword/this plot device spell from time to time, but in general there are only so many weapons you can carry/spells you can memorize.

[Badger]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

A Blade in the back will ruin ainy Mages day. Including an Archmage.

 

IMOHO

 

QM

 

Beat me to it. Note: And yes, I have done that in game *looks around innocently*

[GoldenAge]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

Really, if you're going to play High Fantasy it has to be with the understanding that magic is the most influential aspect of the game. What you can do to balance magic out is provide it to everyone or, conversely, provide a foil to it to everyone.

 

True magic takes time and energy (be it provided by the caster himself, foci, or other). Casters made to adhere to the proceeding rule can be offset by other inherently non-magical characters who employ magic via items that contain their own energy source or are quickly deployed.

 

In truth, some of the best High Fantasy games I've ever played had magic oozing out of every poor. The end result was a sort of "nuclear standoff" of magic that lead to higher levels of roleplaying and inter-character communication as well as a need to be more clever.

 

Hero Fantasy is AWESOME at scaling magic and managing lots of it. It allows the GM to customize the magic specifically to each character. That keeps the characters interesting and independent. The Arabian Mage's magic will have a distinct color and applications as compared to the Tolkienesque Mage whose magic will look much different from the Melnibonéen Necromancer's magic. Much better than a bunch of PCs running around with virtually the same spells. Add to that the diversity a GM could introduce with items (magic swords and other weapons that can perform a myriad of effects for [or against] their wielder, magical wind-up steeds that grow from toys to actual size, caskets of magical snow that have the power to coat the landscape in winter despite the season, etc.) from different regions and you have an EPIC High Fantasy that can only be brought to you via the greatness of HERO SYSTEM!!!

 

Wow, let loose my Hero evangelist there, didn't I?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

I am trying to set up a balanced magic system for a high fantasy setting where magic is powerful yet not so far that in order to survive the whole party need magical defenses and items to balance them against mages. And I was wondering if anyone has a system that has worked in the past and tips to keep traditional fighters happy with their role in the combat.

 

as others have mentioned, in a "High Fantasy" type of game, make sure your fighters and rogues have special abilities that set them apart as well as Magic for mages and priests. Fighters should be able to purchase Combat Talents that make them supreme comatants; Autofire Hand Killing Attacks, Armor Piercing strikes, Deadly Blow (extra Damage Classes added to your attacks) Damage Resistance, Steel Whirlwind (Area of Effect HKA, Selective). Rogues should have access to special Stealth skills, outright Invisibility to sight while hiding in shadows (Requires skill roll, Stealth or Concealment), Inaudibility to hearing while sneaking (RSR stealth again) Deadly Blow with a sneak attack (Back Stab!) Poisonous attacks, Perfect dodging (Desolidification on skill roll), etc.

 

I also provide a ton of magic items in my campaign that boosts their wielders abilities into the strosphere. Many magical weapons and armor will give fighters abilities that will easily put them on par with a powerful mage. Of course, mages have access to all kinds of magical boosts as well, wizards staffs and magical orbs that will enhance their magical prowess, so it goes both ways. Besides, most players love, Love, LOVE finding powerful artifacts that their character can wield. Some even wield them responsibly, contrary to popular opinion on the subject.

[Old Man]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

Generally in FH you already have to require that mages buy a certain number of limitations on their spells, just so they don't wind up flying around zapping at each other like costumed superheroes. You could actually dial that up, even if the overall effect of the spells are greater. Concentrate DCV0 for a full turn is a serious limitation for any spellcaster. I'm not sure I've ever had a PC stab one in the back, but I've definitely shot a couple with arrows in the forehead or throat.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

Like others have said, the Limitations on spells can help a great deal.

 

If everything takes a Full Turn to cast, and you disallow Reduced Endurance then a mage already limits their tactical options to standing still.

 

Also, High Fantasy does invoke the idea of some really powerful people, especially mages. One thing, and you have to be careful here, is to allow non-mages to spend points on magic items. Assuming many characters are trending towards high points (the low end of the superhero spectrum in some cases) then this can balance itself out. The mage may have some versatility, but that fighter packs on heckuva wallop with that magic sword while encased in magic resistant armor...

 

On the other hand, in lower point games, while tending to lose some of the High Fantasy luster, the points tend to equal themselves out rather nicely. Sure the mage may be able to drop 80 points of 175 into a Magic Multipower Pool... but after Skills and Characteristics they may not be as battle worthy as they think they are (range, plus low OCV = a lot of high powered missing).

 

Also - you can limit Active Points, or more simply just limit Damage Classes - doesn't matter if the mage can do 3D6 Killing, so can the Fighter, and he likely has to pay less points for it.

 

Also, sometimes you just need to restrict In Game Magic Abilities. Maybe no mage has ever, not once, figured out a Teleport Spell that doesn't magically quarter them to the ends of the earth....

[Vondy]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

The trick is to give the non-magic types something to do. Usually' date=' that something is combat, although rogue-types are possible.[/quote']

 

In my experience, making magic powerful but narrow in scope is the best way to handle this.

 

No generalist mages with D&D junk bin miscellaneous spell lists!

 

Anything more than a cantrip should fit fairly tightly into the thematic focus.

[bluesguy]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

I have to jump in... I know Darkarus and we have had a few conversations about this as well. My one recommendation is to read Magic System Design on Killershrike's site. IF the goal of magic is to make it big and flashy then he has some really good suggestions. He has some recommendations on how to balance that with non-magical types.

 

Giving PCs the ability to buy magic items w/ character points is a very good one as well.

[GoldenAge]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

Giving PCs the ability to buy magic items w/ character points is a very good one as well.

I'd go even further than that...

 

Assuming you're not bringing in all the PCs at a low level (cuz that makes my point moot) I'd allow each of them to make customized and very specific magical items. Items that reflect their long journey to appropriate them and the characters who wield them. Break some molds! Forge some new ideas in magic and its interaction with reality and the multiverse! Create some legends that the characters can flourish proudly and with great effect. Make the items as much a part of your story as the heroes that are honored or cursed to hold them. The way the characters deal with such magic could solidify and refine their heroic (or demonic) personality, making for great stories.

 

Relish Elric not for his awesome abilities as a mage (for they were awesome) but for his mighty struggles with the vampiric runesword Stormbringer!

Bilbo and Frodo were wondrous people but twas the Ring from whence the legend grew!

Aladin was but a boy, yet his luck brought him into the presence of the Magic Lamp!

Arthur would have been a promising sovereign but with Excalibur at his side he was the greatest king!

 

How all of those characters dealt with their burden (for great magic, be it good or evil, is always a heavy burden) culminated in them becoming legends. Now, take several individuals of that stature, add magical creatures and wizards of different ilks and bring them together to create an epic legend!!!

 

Set each appart, make them unique. As Vondy said, give them greatness but narrow their scope. Allow each mage and character to look, feel and act differently (maybe even reflecting locational, instructional, and, heck, maybe even temporal differences). They are the heroes (by hook or by crook) and they deserve to be special.

[Christopher]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

Also - you can limit Active Points, or more simply just limit Damage Classes - doesn't matter if the mage can do 3D6 Killing, so can the Fighter, and he likely has to pay less points for it.

 

Also, sometimes you just need to restrict In Game Magic Abilities. Maybe no mage has ever, not once, figured out a Teleport Spell that doesn't magically quarter them to the ends of the earth....

I prefer both a Damage Class Limit and a (higher) Active Point Limit. Not every advantage counts for Damage Classes (Reduced Endurance, affects Desolid).

 

Also you have to determine how fast/slow travel should be. Maybe you don't want the group to have access to megascaled movement. Or if, you could use the "1m, Megascaled a lot" approach - that way it is easy to interfere with it/make it impossible (a simple -1 Teleport CE, Megascaled). Not every souvereign wants people just porting armies or adventueres/comandos into thier lands!

[bluesguy]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

The whole concept of the Megascale in a high fantasy magic world could be 'problematic'. For instance what happens if a wizard wants to have a 10d6 fireball (more like a nuke) that has a 1km radius, is indirect, and has 10 or more kilometer range. And they have bought specific range mods to make it likely they will get a close hit ("getting close only counts in horseshoes and nuclear warfare"). The effect would be something like a battleship lobbing a shell 20 miles away and blowing away a city block. And to lower the 'real cost' then there could be some expensive focuses, extra time, concentration, huge end spend, etc.

[Christopher]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

The whole concept of the Megascale in a high fantasy magic world could be 'problematic'. For instance what happens if a wizard wants to have a 10d6 fireball (more like a nuke) that has a 1km radius' date=' is indirect, and has 10 or more kilometer range. And they have bought specific range mods to make it likely they will get a close hit ("getting close only counts in horseshoes and nuclear warfare"). The effect would be something like a battleship lobbing a shell 20 miles away and blowing away a city block. And to lower the 'real cost' then there could be some expensive focuses, extra time, concentration, huge end spend, etc.[/quote']

Megascale is to build flavorfull, not gambreaking powers.

You just gave an example for a propably gamebreaking ability.

 

So you provided a built and then told us why it is not allowed.

[Markdoc]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

The whole concept of the Megascale in a high fantasy magic world could be 'problematic'. For instance what happens if a wizard wants to have a 10d6 fireball (more like a nuke) that has a 1km radius' date=' is indirect, and has 10 or more kilometer range. And they have bought specific range mods to make it likely they will get a close hit ("getting close only counts in horseshoes and nuclear warfare"). The effect would be something like a battleship lobbing a shell 20 miles away and blowing away a city block. And to lower the 'real cost' then there could be some expensive focuses, extra time, concentration, huge end spend, etc.[/quote']

 

We're talking epic fantasy here. So he throws his crummy little 10d6 fireball, and it goes "poot" on the city's defence shield. Laughing boy has just made 40 or 50 powerful wizards and warriors very angry. It makes no sense to think of epic fantasy like a mundane game: it doesn't play the same.

 

When I think epic fantasy, I think of things like Lord of light where one character uses his fireblast to write his name on the moon!

 

Cheers, Mark

[GoldenAge]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

When I think epic fantasy' date=' I think of things like [i']Lord of light[/i] where one character uses his fireblast to write his name on the moon!

I've been promoting EPIC events... But even I wouldn't let it go THAT far.

[Cancer]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

Whatever you do for balance, don't overdo it. I've seen settings where "magic user" was a synonym for "large slow target" and if combat-type PCs ever appear on the same tactical map the magic-user is dead in no more than a couple turns.

 

"Balance" does not mean hamstringing the genre-definining character type, making him worthless in actual tactical combat, or making him scary only to NPCs.

[GoldenAge]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

Whatever you do for balance, don't overdo it. I've seen settings where "magic user" was a synonym for "large slow target" and if combat-type PCs ever appear on the same tactical map the magic-user is dead in no more than a couple turns.

 

"Balance" does not mean hamstringing the genre-definining character type, making him worthless in actual tactical combat, or making him scary only to NPCs.

Good point!

[Markdoc]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

Whatever you do for balance, don't overdo it. I've seen settings where "magic user" was a synonym for "large slow target" and if combat-type PCs ever appear on the same tactical map the magic-user is dead in no more than a couple turns.

 

"Balance" does not mean hamstringing the genre-definining character type, making him worthless in actual tactical combat, or making him scary only to NPCs.

 

Actually the mage who is hamstrung in tactical combat is a perfectly playable character - as long as he can do other things which are important for the game. Indeed, in my last game one PC played a mage with no defensive spells, and one offensive spell - a 1-hex 15 STR TK! That character was not only viable, but a valuable member of the party, who saved the group's lives many times, over a campaign that lasted 5+ years!

 

Our experience (across multiple GMs, and multiple campaigns) is that if mages can reliably (or even semi-reliably) go toe to toe with other combat type PCs, then there's no reason to play anything else, and soon, every PC will be a mage. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing: I have fond memories of campaigns we played where every PC was a mage! It simply depends on what kind of game you want.

 

Basically the combat-mage is only a genre-defining character if that genre is D&D and D&D-like games, and those games have their own (admittedly, relatively ineffective) control methods to provide balance (no armour, lower HP, restricted number of powers, 2 bad saves, etc). Hero system doesn't have any bias in that direction, which means of course, there are no in-built controls. It's up to the GM to provide them.

 

cheers, Mark

[Cancer]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

Actually the mage who is hamstrung in tactical combat is a perfectly playable character - as long as he can do other things which are important for the game. Indeed' date=' in my last game one PC played a mage with no defensive spells, and [b']one [/b]offensive spell - a 1-hex 15 STR TK! That character was not only viable, but a valuable member of the party, who saved the group's lives many times, over a campaign that lasted 5+ years!

 

I envy all you guys with GMs who don't have "Stomp The Squishies" as a permanent modus operandi.

[rentauri]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

I've never like the whole extra time, concentration on everything ideas, certain spells sure but not everything. One thing that can help limit it is a Pre-generated spell list. Simply limiting the selection to your pre-approved list can help balance some of your issues. Also Fantasy Hero has plenty of ideas of Spell Systems to help with some ideas, Lex Magisterium (page 303) is "This is a magic system appropriate to High Fantasy campaigns featuring lots of powerful magic." Of course it also tries to make magic cheaper so you may need to tweak it. One of the core ideas is that a character has a Spell Rank and the spell's listed have a Spell Cirlce. To be able to cast a spell the mage must have a Rank at least twice the Spell's circle or he can't even cast it and the circle is based on the Spell's Active Points/20.

 

Another way you can work with magic is require all magic to use an Endurance Reserve instead of the normal character's Endurance however in this Endurance Reserve the mage is limited to only 1-4 REC with all magic costing END (and only a select few having the Half END advantage). This way magic becomes a resource that can be used as a huge striking attacks that the character will need to recharge or they have cast all day at a slower pace. Of course this idea, I think, goes against some aspects of High Fantasy however it is not limiting the power of the spell simply that which fuels it. It can also become very nasty for these mages when your Anti-Magic Spell is bought as Suppress Endurance Reserve and can be even more of a bad day if warriors have a mystical combat technique that allow them to 'cut' at the heart of a mages magic and use Suppress Endurance Reserve. This idea is based on the Eldrtich Lore system (page 300) in Fantasy Hero and one of my favorite ones.

[Gary Miles]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

We're talking epic fantasy here. So he throws his crummy little 10d6 fireball, and it goes "poot" on the city's defence shield. Laughing boy has just made 40 or 50 powerful wizards and warriors very angry. It makes no sense to think of epic fantasy like a mundane game: it doesn't play the same.

 

When I think epic fantasy, I think of things like Lord of light where one character uses his fireblast to write his name on the moon!

 

That was in "THE TICK", and the villain was Chairface Chippendale.

[Markdoc]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

I envy all you guys with GMs who don't have "Stomp The Squishies" as a permanent modus operandi.

 

I was the GM!

In truth though, we have had similar characters in most of our games, regardless of GM. There's only been one who'd snuff characters like that out of hand. That doesnt mean that they got a free ride: simply that the PCs protected their squishies

 

Cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Re: How to balance mages in high fnatasy.

 

I envy all you guys with GMs who don't have "Stomp The Squishies" as a permanent modus operandi.

 

That's not so bad. In fact, on a couple of occasions we turned the tables on the GM, knowing that any half-intelligent baddies were going to gun for the squishies as soon as the balloon went up. The squishies would go into defense mode, everyone else would hold actions, then when the baddies went for the squishies, everyone would switch levels to OCV and haul off with offensive strikes and haymakers.

 

It also helped spark some creative 'squishy' builds. Mages can make incredibly good tanks if they want to be.