JLA vs. Avengers #2 (Spoilers)

[Stone]

no offense was intended to Cap. Believe me, I'm not a fan of the current Batman. Personally, I find Batman to be one of the most annoying characters around. He started off as a detective with some MA training (judo I think), and now he can beat anyone he is put against....its stupid.

[assault]

He was actually more of a brawler in his first appearance. Come to think of it, he wasn't much of a detective, either!

 

Having the Police Commissioner as a contact is kind of nice. Just ask the Shadow.

 

Alan

[Guest Worldmaker]

Originally posted by Agent X

Captain America is a master of more than melee. I'm getting tired of the "Batman can beat anybody if he gets to plan routine." Read some Cap and think about his background.

 

Why are you assuming we haven't done that already and *still* come to the conclusion that Captain America would get slapped?

[Lord Liaden]

Easy, gang. No need to draw the Cap vs. Bats battleline here. Neither side is going to convince the other, and we don't get an "official" opinion from this series other than that it would be very close, which most of us agree to anyway.

 

I do think it appropriate that, since these two are the members of their respective teams with the most overall savvy, they would have little interest in a pointless duel in the face of much more urgent concerns.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Easy, gang. No need to draw the Cap vs. Bats battleline here. Neither side is going to convince the other, and we don't get an "official" opinion from this series other than that it would be very close, which most of us agree to anyway.

 

I do think it appropriate that, since these two are the members of their respective teams with the most overall savvy, they would have little interest in a pointless duel in the face of much more urgent concerns.

My annoyance with the Batman camp is that many of them seem to believe it wouldn't be close if Batman had time to plan. You would think that there wouldn't be any crime in Gotham if Batman was as capable as they imply. Would Batman be better off if he had time to prepare for Cap? Certainly. Would Cap be better off if he had time to prepare for Batman? Certainly. Does Batman have access to great gear? Certainly. Does Cap have access to great gear? Certainly. Is Batman a good strategic and tactical thinker? Certainly. Is Captain America a good strategic and tactical thinker? Certainly - and this is the one that the Batman Camp choose to discount.

[austenandrews]

Nah, I considered all those factors, and I still like Bats under those conditions. Not that I'm saying Cap would be a pushover, far from it. Neither would Bats be a pushover in a standup fight. But each has an advantage under certain conditions.

 

I do agree with Stone, though, that both characters had their power levels adjusted upward by virtue of membership in their respective teams.

 

-AA

[Chuckg]

> My annoyance with the Batman camp is that many of them

> seem to believe it wouldn't be close if Batman had time to

> plan. You would think that there wouldn't be any crime in

> Gotham if Batman was as capable as they imply.

 

Faulty logic, and reductio ad absurdum besides. All the planning in the world cannot overcome the basic physical limitations that: a) it still takes a finite amount of time to plan and Batman can only be in one place at one time. Hence, the continued presence of crime in Gotham no matter *how* good he is.

 

OTOH, vs. a single foe (such as Cap), that limitation isn't really coming into play...

 

 

 

You do realize, of course, that by similar 'logic' it can be argued that virtually every superhero in every comic ever written is an incompetent dolt, because crime still exists on their planet.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Agent X

My annoyance with the Batman camp is that many of them seem to believe it wouldn't be close if Batman had time to plan. You would think that there wouldn't be any crime in Gotham if Batman was as capable as they imply. Would Batman be better off if he had time to prepare for Cap? Certainly. Would Cap be better off if he had time to prepare for Batman? Certainly. Does Batman have access to great gear? Certainly. Does Cap have access to great gear? Certainly. Is Batman a good strategic and tactical thinker? Certainly. Is Captain America a good strategic and tactical thinker? Certainly - and this is the one that the Batman Camp choose to discount.

 

Blind internal compromise is part of human nature. When faced with the probable defeat of your hero, you manifest a situation in which that hero might win. Cap wins fights...better than Batman in my opinion. Batman is great in a fight. What makes him different and unique from Cap is that he solves crimes, deduces mysteries, and is a master manipulator.

 

Cap becomes a victim of the simple idealist syndrome. For some reason because of his nature, he is not seen as clever. You also, unfortunately, see signs of this in DC's portrayal of Superman. Batman beat Superman? Eh. Wow, he used the clever 'kryptonite' strategy. Brilliantly insightful plan that was. It is a total insult to Superman's character to suggest Batman should beat him. The Superman I used to read was brilliant. An intellect easily on par with Batman. Idealistic, yes...but by no means gullible. An intelligently written Superman would usually be prepared for someone to use his one weakness against him. Bah.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Starlord

Blind internal compromise is part of human nature. When faced with the probable defeat of your hero, you manifest a situation in which that hero might win. Cap wins fights...better than Batman in my opinion. Batman is great in a fight. What makes him different and unique from Cap is that he solves crimes, deduces mysteries, and is a master manipulator.

 

Cap becomes a victim of the simple idealist syndrome. For some reason because of his nature, he is not seen as clever. You also, unfortunately, see signs of this in DC's portrayal of Superman. Batman beat Superman? Eh. Wow, he used the clever 'kryptonite' strategy. Brilliantly insightful plan that was. It is a total insult to Superman's character to suggest Batman should beat him. The Superman I used to read was brilliant. An intellect easily on par with Batman. Idealistic, yes...but by no means gullible. An intelligently written Superman would usually be prepared for someone to use his one weakness against him. Bah.

Supes certainly dealt with Luthor's and even Dr. Doom's use of kryptonite.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> My annoyance with the Batman camp is that many of them

> seem to believe it wouldn't be close if Batman had time to

> plan. You would think that there wouldn't be any crime in

> Gotham if Batman was as capable as they imply.

 

Faulty logic, and reductio ad absurdum besides. All the planning in the world cannot overcome the basic physical limitations that: a) it still takes a finite amount of time to plan and Batman can only be in one place at one time. Hence, the continued presence of crime in Gotham no matter *how* good he is.

 

OTOH, vs. a single foe (such as Cap), that limitation isn't really coming into play...

 

 

 

You do realize, of course, that by similar 'logic' it can be argued that virtually every superhero in every comic ever written is an incompetent dolt, because crime still exists on their planet.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Impressive the use of

 

I have heard statements to the effect that Batman given some time to plan can beat Superman, Captain America, and anyone else. I'm not exaggerating one bit. Why can't Batman neutralize his rogues' gallery as easily as he can outwit Supes? Besides, with Batman's great intellect he doesn't need to be present to effect events right?

 

I'm not downing Batman. What I am saying is that he has definite limits to his planning capabilities that are well within the realm that Captain America can adapt to as represented in his comic. They are very even in capability with Cap having the advantage of artificial enhancements. I give it to Cap in a stand-up fight 1 more time than I give it to Bats and I call it pretty even if they know each other is coming.

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by Chuckg

You do realize, of course, that by similar 'logic' it can be argued that virtually every superhero in every comic ever written is an incompetent dolt, because crime still exists on their planet.

 

Isn't that pretty much Superman's opinion of the Marvel universe?

 

-AA

[Stone]

This is not an attack on the Batman camp, just an observation..

 

Agent X makes a great point. If Batman is such a genius and incredible fighter, why are the Joker and the other non-superpowered villians still around in Batman's city? How did Joker manage to kill Robin? Is he smarter than Batman?

 

Granted, there are just as many villians for each hero in publication that seem to always escape and resurface to annoy the heroes. It just seems that the overwhelming majority have at least one power that make them a dangerous threat. Batman's stable of regular foes (Joker, Peguin, Riddler...) are all very intelligent, but other than some questionable sanity I do not not recall any powers. Then again, I quit reading Batman about 15 years ago.

[Chuckg]

The 'Batman has trouble with pro boxers' era isn't just Pre Zero-Hour, it's Pre-Crisis.

 

Remember, Marvel might not have full continuity reboots, but the DCU *does*.

[Chuckg]

> Full continuity reboot = retcon.

 

Yes, but hardly "this week's". If we use Post-Crisis continuity only, that's still almost *25 years* worth of comics. Post Zero-Hour only, that's still around 10 years.

 

[snip]

[Guest Champsguy]

All kneel, for the Munchkin King hath come forth to lay down the law.

 

 

Here's my take on Bats and Cap.

 

Cap has the physical edge. I don't think there's any doubt there. While Bats has beaten down some pretty awesome martial artists, he was still beaten by Prometheus, DC's version of the Taskmaster. Cap, meanwhile, has won fistfights with people like Mr Hyde. I can't remember Batman going hand-to-hand with bricks, but I've seen Cap do it.

 

As far as "fighting dirty", I hereby name anybody who references this a complete 'tard. What does "fighting dirty" mean in a fight? Just what, pray tell, will Batman do that's "not fair"? What specifically is he supposed to do to Captain America?

 

I've seen Batman re-wire Prometheus' helmet. Was that dirty? Maybe. I've seen him use kryptonite and other kinds of crap that people were vulnerable to. But what is Cap's weakness? He doesn't get his powers from a magic ring, and barring bad writing, they never go away. Simply, there's no way for Bats to cheat Cap, without resorting to Lex Luthor style attacks ("Cap won't like it when I have protestors appear on the doorstep of Avengers' Mansion. Bwah-hah-hah!").

 

People also forget one thing: the super-soldier serum enhanced Cap's brain as well. This isn't talked about as much, but he's one smart cookie.

 

Now, Cap isn't as good a scientist as Batman is. Batman is no Reed Richards, but he's a good real-world scientist. He's a great detective, and he speaks more languages than I want to know. THIS is Bat's advantage over Cap. Steve Rogers is a nice guy, but he's an all-american boy. Batman is James Bond. He can blend in with Tanzanian royalty, because he knows which fork goes where. Batman has more disguise skills, and security skills, and infiltration skills than Cap does.

 

If your daughter is kidnapped, Batman is the guy who can get her back unharmed (I say that, but most of the times I remember people being kidnapped with Bats on the case, they ended up dead). He's the detective. Cap is the combat leader. Batman is the infiltration guy. When the big guns start blasting, it's time for Bats to find a corner to lurk in, and it's time for Cap to find a bad guy to punch.

 

 

In a fight, Cap wins 60% of the time (fair or not). This doesn't mean that Cap is a better character--it just means he wins in a fight. I think both these guys lose to Wonder Man, and he's a goober.

[Chuckg]

Batman was beaten by Prometheus... the first time. When Batman admits that he was stupidly overconfident and let his guard down.

 

The second time, in 'World War III', Batman was successfully making Prometheus eat his billy club even /before/ the cheat with the helmet came into play, on pure skill alone. Batman only needed to activate the helmet cheat because Prometheus had brought his wrist-gun into play at a critical moment... the pure HTH brawl was going all Batman's way.

[Vigil]

re: Wonderman's gooberdom

 

Yeah,

 

He may be portrayed as goober, but Wondy's hands down the world's most powerful goober (when written right).

 

As Count Nefaria (a way more stylish version of Superman) said in the timeless Avengers #165 "...and you may be the mightiest mortal who ever lived..."

 

Of course then he punches Wondy through the mansion, wiping out Captain America with his invulnerable bod as he passes while Nefaria says, "...except, of course, for me."

 

But the first part is really cool and it shows that Wondy rules. Oh yeah, and Cap gives Wondy his shield to continue the fight.

 

So there. Definitve proof that Batman and Cap are both Wondeman-wannabes.

 

Vigil

[Starlord]

...now what about Batman v. Wolverine?

[Chuckg]

Pattern Ghost -- who the hell said that Batman was the best hand-to-hand combatant in the DCU? "The Best in the DCU" is a title that has a helluva lot of crowding at the top.

 

Then again, the only two contenders for that title who are clearly ahead of Batman (Cassandra Cain and Lady Shiva) both have such obnoxious chi mastery and other such aberrant skills that they are *WELL* up into the metahuman range, despite having absolutely no metagenes.

 

(Cassandra can move in literal Matrix bullet time for brief periods, finish punching four people unconscious before the first one she hit has time enough to finish the blink she caught him halfway through, shatter brick walls *by accident* while fighting, and see an enemy's movements before it happens. Shiva hasn't yet demonstrated bullet time (because she doesn't have any fight scenes vs. people with guns), but she matches Cassandra neck-and-neck in everything else.)

 

It is a logical fallacy to assume that you *must* be the best in the DCU to compare with the best in the MU.

 

And BTW, nobody here has disputed the fact that Cap has a superior physique to Batman... only marginally superior in some areas (reaction time, agility), somewhat superior in others (strength), downright obnoxiously superior in one (endurance). What we are saying is that between his skills and his unorthodoxness, Batman can make up for loss of physicality with better and smarter fighting.

 

Another logical fallacy is to make the assumption that because we're saying that Cap isn't as clever, as adept at controlling the battlefield, or etc. as Captain America, we are therefore somehow claiming that Cap is stupid.

 

Cap is not stupid. Cap is quite briliant, agreed. It's just that Batman is significantly *above* "quite" brilliant... he's all the way up there at "breathtaking genius", with some spikes on the chart that go all the way up to "Holy Shit".

[JmOz]

Green Arrow is also a better HtH than Batman (again in the Lady Shiva Range)

[JmOz]

To clarify Conner is a better HtH, not Oliver

[Chuckg]

Actually, while the dialogue said that, the actual results didn't support it...

 

Batman has fought Shiva three times, and while he's never won any points without outside assistance, he's always managed to keep her from hurting *him* too badly.

 

Connor went up against Shiva and almost died. He did inflict more damage on her than Batman ever has (Shiva's broken arm)... but Shiva repaid that by kicking in his ribs and putting him down and helpless, and she would've shoved that sword right through his head if Robin hadn't called in that debt of honor she owed him to save Connor's life.

 

So despite the narrative hyperbole, I do not consider Connor Hawke as superior to Batman... superior to Nightwing, yes, clearly, but Batman's made a better showing than he did, repeatedly.

 

Cassandra Cain has fought Shiva (edit) twice that I can recall... she got bitch-slapped all through the first one and then sucker-punched Shiva after the fight was over (punched her with her /broken/ arm, no less!), and won the second one cleanly by knockout... but it was still a very close thing.

[BlackSword]

Martial Artists in the DCU

 

I think when first introduced, Cassandra was heads and shoulders above everyone else in the MAs areana. Part of the reason for this was she couldn't communicate and was only able to read people by body language, and very subtle body language at that. It was in this time that Batman tested her and said hit me. Nothing happened and then Bats coughed up some blood, and smiled. She was fast. One of her story lines in the Batgirl comic a metahuman touched her mind and gave her the ability to commincate normally, this effected her fighting ability and depowered her somewhat.

 

I missed some of the comics in the Lady Shiva storyline, but I think her first loss to Shiva was partially psychological.

 

In the current Batman/Superman series pretty much every supervillain comes after Superman to collect a bounty (issue 3?). Bats is helping him and comes up against Lady Shiva. Batman notes in a little blue box that Lady Shiva and him have had a bit of a competition over who was the better fighter. Batman's next comment is something along the line of, "I remember what she did to Catwoman" "I try not to enjoy this."

 

Part of who is the best MA in the DC universe is storyline, but I think the current continuity supports the top four being (in no particular order) Batman, Lady Shiva, Conner, Cassandra Cain. I think they are pretty much at the same level (well above everyone else). In game terms their fights would come down to luck of the dice.

 

Also, in the recent Straight Shooter series Conner was getting beat up pretty good by the bad guy. I was expecting Conner to hold up much better considering he is supposed to be one of the best martial artists in the DCU.

[austenandrews]

I have no idea who all these DC martial artists are that you're talking about, but I always thought the Joker was smarter than Batman. Is there some question about that? I never saw Batman as a super-genius. Like someone said, he's James Bond. The Joker is Blofeld, on a whole 'nother level. Good thing he's a total loon.

 

And whoever said that Batman's utility belt wouldn't help him against Cap must be talking about a different Batman than the one I know. Fistfight Cap until his oxygen metabolism is way up, slap a net over him (it's been done lots of times, don't get cocky ) and then toss out a few pellets of knockout gas. Lure Cap onto precarious footing and use swinglines to even the odds. Come on, this is Batman, not Moon Knight. Give him some credit.

 

Of course I tend to agree, if Cap makes Bats eat shield more than once or twice, it's nitey-nite for Brucie.

 

-AA

[Chuckg]

Re: Cassandra and her move-reading ability... after vigorous training with Lady Shiva, Cassandra got it back. She can speak now *and* she has the full uber-thing she had before. Cassandra's having lost that ability temporarily (an ability which Shiva shares, BTW) is why she lost the first fight vs. Shiva... the second time, she was fighting unimpaired.

 

Re: Lady Shiva and that recent showing vs. Talia... well, the comics discussion forum I hang out on has a term for such events -- 'Spider-Man vs. Firelord'. (i.e. -- a one-off fluke occurrence where a character came in vastly above or below their usual performance level, in a manner that just isn't even remotely plausible.)