JLA vs. Avengers #2 (Spoilers)

[Vigil]

what about Deathstroke?

 

Hey Guys,

 

Since we're on the topic of the best MA in the DCU, you seem to have forgotten the most obvious choice...non other than the unmatchable Deathstroke. He's kicked the crap out of just about everyone he's faced, including handing Bats his head a couple of times and this is at his current reduced ability levels. The way I see him, Deathstroke has it all, siperhuman STR and SPD, a tactical ability that may rival Cappy's, and a vast knowledge of all forms of fighting. Remember how he walked all over the Titans repeatedly and the damage he did in Panic in the Sky? I think he's even fought Lady Shiva on a couple of occassions. I don't recall how those ended but I think it was a draw.

 

And then there's guys like Bronze Tiger, Kanto, Lashina to name a few.

 

Now that I think of it, it strikes me just who the best MA in the DCU is without a doubt, unarguably. It would be the Levitz Karate Kid of Legion fame. This guy could punch out Shiva, Cain, Deathstroke and Bats before they even moved. I think he's undeniably the best there is. Heck, he's even taken down Timber Wolf, Superboy and Mon-El and duked it out with Validus (the last one didn't go so well, though)...no other martial artist I know has even come close.

 

In the Marvel Universe another couple of contenders: Iron Fist could certainly give Bats a run for his money as could the Black Panther. We've seen Bats and Daredevil fight indecisively. Then there's Shang Chi, who is in a class beyond Bats and probably more in the Detahstroke/Shiva league.

 

Someone was talking about what would happen between Bats and Wolverine. It seems there may be a bit of alack of understanding going on. Bats is good, as good as a human can be. Wolverine and Captain America are way beyond what a human could touch. And planning, well you can plan for the best way to get run over by a speeding Mack truck but you're still going to get run over by a speeding Mack truck and it's going to hurt you a lot more than the truck. So much for planning. What I'm saying is that there are limits to what Bats can do against these guys. he can hit Wolvie all he wants and jam gas pellets dwn his throat and Wolvie will still tear him a new everything. Remeber Wolvie deals with guys like Sabretooth and Omega Red regularly not guys like Joker and Riddler who are, more or less, physically ineffectual.

 

That's the difference in the very structure of the 2 universes. DC's heroes are generally problem solvers who one punch the bad guys once they've escaped the death trap. take lots of thinking and problem solving ability and minimal physical difficulty. Marvel's heroes are capable underdogs who battle uphill and overcome with superior fortititude and resolve. And no one displays that more the Captain America. Remeber, this is the guy who lead the combat teams the dealt with Thanos, the Beyonder, Korvac, Ultron, Kang and the list goes on an on. Cap's used to playing in and taking control in the biggest leagues. Throwing a net over him isn't going to catch him by surprise or even really slow him down ("Gee a net, never seen that before! What can I do?"...with his reflexes he may well just scoop it up and throw it back before Bats knows what's happening). Captain America's faced all sorts of foes from the mundane to the trans-cosmic. I don't think there' really much of anything that's going to catch him by surprise and I don't think Bats (all credit where it's due) is going to undermine or shake Cap's confidence. If the Beyonder and Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet or Korvac can't do it then Bats isn't going to (please don't try and tell me he's more intimidating than them.)

 

What I'm trying to say is that Cap and Bats are proabbaly equaly good in their own spheres. It's just that there's spheres aren't equal.

 

Vigil

 

[Chuckg]

While I agree with you re: their relative skill levels, I was leaving Deathstroke and Val Armorr out of my calculations of "best" because in Deathstroke's case it's not skill, it's pure metahuman stats -- and in Val's case, well, I guess I was thinking only of 20th-century martial artists. I'm with you on the fact that if he was allowed into the contest, he'd destroy everybody else there on pure skill alone and never break a sweat.

 

I disagree with you, however, about how Cap's physical stats are 'far beyond' human capacity. The whole point about Cap is that he's peak human, not metahuman. Your scenario about him picking up a net and throwing it back upon Batman before Batman can see it move... sorry, just don't see it. *Deathstroke* isn't *that* much faster relative to the Bat (he is faster, but not that much faster), and he *IS* in the definitely superhuman range.

 

The thing about Batman is that he's about as physically peak human as it can get without actually invoking Super-Soldier Serum, but *with* invoking a buttload of mind-over-body disciplines in addition to what is literally a lifetime of fanatic training.

[Starlord]

Eh, Spidey beats 'em all.

[Brandi]

We're all a bunch of Comic Book Guys here, even the girls.

 

Anyway, I think when it comes to Batman having to fight anybody truly superhuman, he has to be able to set up the playing field to give him an edge or he's in trouble. Consider the big final fight of The Dark Knight Returns.

 

[And note that if Oliver had screwed up Bats might well have been killed even before the heart attack kicked in, though Supes may have only had orders to completely cripple him.]

[Vigil]

Some more thoughts

 

Hey Chuckg and Starlord and Brandi,

 

You all have valid points.

 

Yes, Spidey could probably beat Batman without too much effort and may even beat Cap but I'm kinda dubious on this (I hadn't realized how much of a "mark" I am for Cap until I got into this. before I hadn't even thought that I liked the guy all that much. I guess there are no atheists in foxholes and I'm in the Marvel one.)

 

Brandi, as to your Dark Knight point, I do agree that Miller's was the definitive portrayl of Batman and is the one that all others have been based on since. But, in response, there was a previous post that pointed out that most, if not all, of DC's big guns (Martian Manhunter, Supes, Mon El, have a shockingly pronounced vulnerability that takes them from super- to subhuman in a heartbeat. Marvel generally doesn't have equivalents...lower power levels but not with commensurate vulnerabilities.) So, while Batman has been shown to be able to defeat Superman if he has a hunk of kryptonite handy, I don't think there's such a thing as Bat-Hulk Repellant in the utility belt, so does that make Hulk superior to Superman?

 

I don't think so but the point is that Marvel's heroes don't have the sorts of cataclysmic vulnerabilities that Batman takes into consideration in his startegies. You can't beat the Hulk by lighting a match...unless it's to immolate yourself and hope to win a moral victory and you can't plan your way around that sort of raw power.

 

And Chuckg, this is what I was driving at in my previous point. There are limits to Batman's planning abilities not to mention the fact that he still has to be physically capable of executing his plans. It's one thing to figure out how to beat someone, it's quite another to actually pull it off. It's the "x factor' that obsessed the Mad Thinker in action. Bats may "love it when a plan comes together" but there's absolutely no assurance that it will. And for improvising and thinking ofn his feet, well Captain America and redited and recorded the talking book on that. There's just no comparison of there tactical abilities there.

 

Here's a few more match ups that I'd like all of your opinions on, (the current) Supes vs Gladiator or Supreme or Hyperion or Ultraman (from the Crime Syndicate) or the post Crisis Superman vs the Golden Age Superman (at his Crisis peak). Who would win?

 

Thanks for your ideas.

[Vigil]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, that as tacticians there are a few guys who also easily transcend Batman's level. Captain America (as I mentioned he wrote and then reedited and then spoke on the talking book and did all the signings and media appearances to put it in perspective.) I still maintain that the physical gap between he and Batman is more than peak human (Batman) vs slightly greater than peak human (Cappy). I think the spread is much more pronounced. If you were to put them in the danger room or on an obstacle course (like in American Gladiators) Batman would be crossing the balance beam about when Captain America broke the tape at the end. Other tacticians who dwarf Bats include Thanos and Warlock and Vril Dox and Brainiac 5 all spring to mind. And of course, my own Vigil from my team Worldwatch.

 

Vigil

 

[Starlord]

Re: Some more thoughts

 

Originally posted by Vigil

Here's a few more match ups that I'd like all of your opinions on, (the current) Supes vs Gladiator or Supreme or Hyperion or Ultraman (from the Crime Syndicate) or the post Crisis Superman vs the Golden Age Superman (at his Crisis peak). Who would win?

 

Thanks for your ideas.

 

I'd have to go with Supes on those first match-ups, particularly since they've decided Supes can squeak by Thor (not that I agree with that)...and Thor has trashed Gladiator and Hyperion one-one-one in the comics.

 

Basically, if a true Marvel fan wanted to be sure to beat Superman, I'd just bring in...

 

the Silver Surfer.

[Chuckg]

Pattern -- re: 'logic'... you are mistaken in the belief that logic doesn't apply to comic books. Logic applies to everything.

 

*Real-world physics* doesn't apply to comic books, just as it fails to apply to much science fiction, virtually all fantasy, and most other genres. And yet, fiction of all varieties is still able to deliver *internally* consistent stories and arguments, even if those arguments are not *externally* consistent with mundane physical laws. This is a form of logic... one of the most basic forms, called 'consistency'.

 

re: 'rat's ass' -- [snip]

 

 

Vigil -- again, I just can't grasp why you are so determined to have Cap be *that far* above peak human.

 

I mean... Cap easily dodges volleys of machine-gun fire at point-blank range. So does Batman.

 

Cap easily throws aerodynamic projectiles on obnoxious ricochet and boomerang shots and never, ever misses. So does Batman.

 

Cap effortlessly does gymnastics under harrying circumstances. Batman has been routinely throwing swinglines around Gotham City for years without ever once becoming street pizza... and remember, at the heights he works at the first time Batman ever blows a Bat-line grapple is the *last* time he'll blow one, barring a miracle.

 

Cap can do curls with weights than normal bodybuilders would be hard-pressed to use for their bench press. Batman can pick up and move vending machines that would normally take two guys and a dolly to drag.

 

The one *big* superiority I will grant Cap physically is endurance -- Batman still has a metabolism that generates fatigue poisons, Cap explicitly does not.

 

But just because Batman can do an Iron Man triathlon and "only" have enough wind left at the end of it to beat down fifteen ninjas, that's still extremely damn impressive, and the fact that Cap could do that same triathlon and barely have broken a sweat at all won't change that.

 

IMO, *if* Captain America beats Batman in a straight-up hand-to-hand fight... and that's by no means a guarantee... then Cap will do so by dragging the fight out for a *very* long time, and gradually wearing Batman down until he's finally done enough wearing that he can make the KO punch actually land home.

 

But there will be no walkovers, no 'casually sweep the net aside and surprise Batman with the pounce', and nothing else of the tone of 'I'm Captain America, you're only human.'

 

Cap is peak human, not Agent Smith.

 

 

 

Edit -- [snip]

[Blue]

Do we need a poll for this?

 

Heck, let's make on anyway. One poll coming up!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Re: Some more thoughts

 

Originally posted by Starlord

I'd have to go with Supes on those first match-ups, particularly since they've decided Supes can squeak by Thor (not that I agree with that)...and Thor has trashed Gladiator and Hyperion one-one-one in the comics.

 

Basically, if a true Marvel fan wanted to be sure to beat Superman, I'd just bring in...

 

the Silver Surfer.

 

Except that Thor has already beaten the Silver Surfer in the past.

 

I'm tellin' ya, these who-would-beat-who debates are a Mobius strip of comics trivia citations. You should just try something less complicated, like untying the Gordian Knot.

[Vigil]

The knot's not a problem. That's what swords are for.

[austenandrews]

For me it doesn't come down to logic or game statistics or what-have-you. For me the real question is, can you write a comic book in which X beats Y in a genuine fight, without resorting to cheap tactics? As I see it, absolutely you can write a convincing story having Bats defeat Cap, through clever use of stealth and whatnot. That's no stretch at all. Put'em in a cage match and it's a stretch, no question. Let Batman control the battlefield, you've got a story.

 

End of discussion for me. *shrug*

 

-AA

[Chuckg]

Agent X -- I missed this post of yours before...

 

[snip]

> Why can't Batman neutralize his rogues' gallery as easily as

> he can outwit Supes?

 

That's the thing. He *can* neutralize 99.9+% of his rogues' gallery as easily as etc... with extremely rare exceptions such as Ra's Al Ghul, "Batman vs. X" conflicts end with X in jail or in Arkham.

 

At which point, the Editor Gawds intervene and allow X a chance for recidivism, instead of simply burying him in the Slab for fifty years to life. But then again, every other superhero (except for the Frank Castle-type lethal-force using vigilantes) suffers this problem as well... no matter how many times they put the villains away, no matter how cleverly they do so, the villains will keep coming back.

 

That includes Captain America, BTW. As well as Reed Richards, Thor, etc, etc.

 

I say again -- you cannot use Batman's "failure" to eliminate his Rogue's Gallery permanently from play as proof that Batman is somehow incapable...

 

... because nigh-on every superhero ever published, no matter how powerful, no matter how skilled, no matter how brilliant, and no matter how devious, has the exact same problem -- the villains will, eventually, get out of jail and get back in the plot.

 

Edit -- the only real solution to the above problem has been the Frank Castle/Authority solution... kill the villains. At which point, all they've done is trade in the recidivism problem for another problem... i.e., for every villain they mow down, two more spring up.

[Lord Liaden]

Please, guys, this one isn't winnable, and it's going in a direction that's not worthy of you. Remember your true classiness, and just walk away.

[Hermit]

I don't know who used the "F" word first in this thread, nor do I really, at this point care.

 

But I would like to respectfully ask that we tone down the profanity and snideness 'just' a bit, please?

 

Thank you.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

That would be Chuck. Since I can't shove my fist down his throat, I opt to cuss him out a bit. Sorry if that offends, but you can just hit the ignore button in my profile.

 

Personally I'd hate to do that, PG. You've made a positive contribution to these boards in the past, and I don't want to lose that just because you let your temper get the better of you once.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

Thanks for the vote of confidence, LL.

 

OK, tell ya what. I'm going to go get rid of all of my prior posts in this thread and ignore chuck. Seems to be the best I can manage. I can at least make that effort for you, Hermit, and others on the board who deserve a show of respect. I apologize to all of you.

 

Thank you.

[Chuckg]

Very well. As soon as I see Pattern Ghost's posts go down, I'll delete all of my sarcastic responses and continuations of the flame war.

 

Edit -- and now they're all down, and so should all of mine be. If I missed one, somebody please let me know where.

[Blue]

Sad day.

 

Checking my ignore list there are two names I don't even recognize, so I deleted them.... and then welcomed two new members.

[Hermit]

Thanks again, to you both this time.

 

I'm going to the Batman/Cap thread for this thing now, and peeking on here from time to time hoping for updates on the overall series

[Starlord]

Re: Re: Re: Some more thoughts

 

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Except that Thor has already beaten the Silver Surfer in the past.

 

I'm tellin' ya, these who-would-beat-who debates are a Mobius strip of comics trivia citations. You should just try something less complicated, like untying the Gordian Knot.

 

 

But, but, but....THEY'RE SO MUCH FUN TO DEBATE!!!

 

*You'd think a Thor fanboy like myself would've known he beat Silver Surfer. How embarassing.

[Chuckg]

The Thor vs. Silver Surfer victories are what some friends of mine jokingly call "Pre-Crisis Thor"... (as in Pre-Crisis Superman vs. Post-Crisis Supes).

 

Thor was a lot more buff during the early Simonson era than he's been in later eras, just as the Silver Surfer's been a lot more buff in many later appearances in his own title than he was in many of his earlier FF appearances and other such contemporaries.

 

Then again, both Thor and the Surfer have had such wide variation up and down in their power curves over their respective lifetimes that they genuinely are an 'Any Given Sunday' situation, IMO. It depends on which point in their lifeline you pick the Surfer and Thor from.

 

(It also depends on whether or not the Surfer will display the tactical ability of a hard-boiled egg or not... Norrin is *really* awful about using the full potential of his powers sometimes, whereas Thor is a very experienced warrior.)

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Edit -- the only real solution to the above problem has been the Frank Castle/Authority solution... kill the villains. ::snip::

That isn't the only option, there is always th option to modify their behaviour ie B-Mod them with one of Tom Thumb's machines.

[Bazza]

Re: Re: Some more thoughts

 

Originally posted by Starlord

the Silver Surfer.

I'd go with Adam Warlock, I doubt both of them can survive a Karmic Blast.

[Superskrull]

Re: Re: Re: Some more thoughts

 

Originally posted by Bazza

I'd go with Adam Warlock, I doubt both of them can survive a Karmic Blast.

 

If you are talking about Thor being attacked by Warlock, forget it. Thor can shrug off a Karmic Blast like it was a 9d EB. I believe it was in the Blood And Thunder storyline.

Warlock also mentioned he hated fighting Thor 'cause he had stomped his butt back when Adam was Him (not to be confused with Her or even It, the Living Colossus)

Apparently, Warlock found Asgardians to be more fortified than most against a karmic assault. This was the period of time where Thor was a nutcase and talking to his imaginary girlfriend while bitching about how Daddy never loved him. You'd think he'd have figured out Odin hated him years ago.

Of course, Thor believes talking eyeballs are a good source of information, too.