austenandrews Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 I love the idea of that image, but I agree that the rendering is Liefeld-wrong. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by austenandrews I love the idea of that image, but I agree that the rendering is Liefeld-wrong. Yeah, but its obviously meant to be more cool-looking than realistic... a concept common to comic book covers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by austenandrews I love the idea of that image, but I agree that the rendering is Liefeld-wrong. -AA The image is cool (and if it's not Perez it's a good imitator), but not the 'idea' of it in my opinion. In other words, if this turns out to be a 'let's-give-all-our-powers-and-weapons-to-Supes-and-he'll-save-the-day' type of ending, I'll be disappointed. It also might indicate that Superman has gone crazy or is mentally controlled and has 'taken' the items. I won't like that either. Supes may be the greatest comics hero every, but none of the heroes should be that 'singled out' in this series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Re: Superman as warrior Originally posted by Lord Liaden I can understand the "warrior" argument. It's not so much having killed, or being willing to kill, but accepting that killing may sometimes be necessary, which Superman adamantly refuses. That's more pasteurized than Viking culture, where killing your enemies (or being killed by them) in honorable combat was the greatest glory; but this is the twenty-first century, after all. Reminds me of the old Manhunter miniseries from the 1970's, where Manhunter is going after his enemies and Batman offers to accompany him, but Manhunter refuses, saying to him: "You have your ways of operating, and within them you're fine. But you won't kill. And this is a killing mission." BTW, if anyone is interested in an official take on Superman's "worthiness," this is supposed to be the cover to issue #4: http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0309/16/jlaavengers4.jpg Thanks LL, I needed the support (and glad someone didn't think I was crazy) Someone at work today however pointed out the personality shift supes went through in Our World at War, so he might be worthy under my idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Re: JLA vs. Avengers #2 (Spoilers) Originally posted by KawangaKid As for Cap vs. Bats, they did a little dance... check out each others stances, combat abilities, reflexes... very little combat. Finally Bats admits that Cap would beat him after a very long battle. Then they both decide to get to the bottom of whoever is manipulating the two teams. Actually, what was said was "It's conceivable you could beat me..." Not exactly what I would call a full out admission that Cap would win, just an acknowledgement that he could. John D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 worthiness of the power of Thor I like Scott's interpretation of the "worthy" quoted below: Originally posted by GestaltBennie What would I do with Thor? Hmm? [snip] As a gag, we might also have a police dog fetch the hammer for Thor (since nothing bars animals from being worthy of the power of Thor) and end up being taken by Odin to serve among his hounds. [snip] Scott Bennie puts a new slant on things, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Regarding Batman/Cap, my personal opinion is that if they fought 100 times, Cap would win 51 of the battles. For all the Bat supporters, note that Batman beats him 49 times...so no whining. I could easily write a scenario with either man winning...and it would be completely plausible. I gave Cap a slight edge for a couple reasons. One....difference in mentality. Batman likes to plan(and don't try to say he doesn't) while Cap likes to improvise. Generally, the latter talent is of a bit more use in a fight.Two, Cap is probably one of the few people in either universe who is a better martial artist than Bats. Cap has more experience and has a soldier's background, which Bats definitely does not have(unless DC has revised him somehow). Plus, Cap does have a physical edge, however slight. Could Bats beat Cap? Certainly. And probably anyone else he puts his mind to. So could Cap in my book. Again, to all the Bats supporters, I can easily write a win for either one....as I could for most DC/Marvel encounters. As to the Supes lifting Thor's Hammer thing, it's more telling who hasn't lifted the hammer than who has. Like Sub Mariner could not...even though he's a noble soul. I guess the real question is just how noble one has to be? Overall, I'm guessing Supes can probably lift the hammer. However, I wouldn't say this judging by his behavior in the miniseries which has...to be quite frank...been very odd. It's like he's turned into Super Cynic Man, dissing the Marvelverse heroes at every opportunity. Has anyone else noticed this....or is this something going on in his own book(which I don't read regularly)? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Superman's Odd Behaviour True,Supes IS behaving oddly.Outside of John Byrne's run on the Superman books I can't remember him being so arrogant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Re: Superman's Odd Behaviour Originally posted by Southern Cross True,Supes IS behaving oddly.Outside of John Byrne's run on the Superman books I can't remember him being so arrogant. Same with Cap... my money's on the two of them being mentally manipulated by the Gamemasters to make sure the two teams didn't go "Hey, we're both being set up... let's do something about it" very early in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Re: Re: Superman's Odd Behaviour Originally posted by Worldmaker Same with Cap... my money's on the two of them being mentally manipulated by the Gamemasters to make sure the two teams didn't go "Hey, we're both being set up... let's do something about it" very early in the game. I thought it as much as said so in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Re: Re: Superman's Odd Behaviour Originally posted by Worldmaker Same with Cap... my money's on the two of them being mentally manipulated by the Gamemasters to make sure the two teams didn't go "Hey, we're both being set up... let's do something about it" very early in the game. Same here, but Cap seems more 'fuzzy'. Except for his 'fascist' comments early on...he appeared much more 'in character' than Superman. And agreeing to help Batman seems to go against the theory as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Concerning Cap versus Bats, it's one of those situational things. Put them in a cage match and Cap should win 75% of the time. But that's not how Batman operates. He'd lose at least that often in cage matches against Bane or Clayface or an army of other opponents. You could argue that Batman's victories come from avoiding such direct confrontations. His famous ongoing wars (with the Joker, the Penguin, etc.) are about controlling the battlefield much more than raw fighting ability. In other words, pit solo Batman against solo Cap in a dark warehouse district, and there's no question who would win 75% of the time. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by austenandrews Concerning Cap versus Bats, it's one of those situational things. Put them in a cage match and Cap should win 75% of the time. But that's not how Batman operates. He'd lose at least that often in cage matches against Bane or Clayface or an army of other opponents. You could argue that Batman's victories come from avoiding such direct confrontations. His famous ongoing wars (with the Joker, the Penguin, etc.) are about controlling the battlefield much more than raw fighting ability. In other words, pit solo Batman against solo Cap in a dark warehouse district, and there's no question who would win 75% of the time. -AA Au contraire, Cap is quite capable of controlling the battlefield. When it comes to solving riddles, I give it to Batman. When it comes to two guys squaring off and knowing the other guy is after them, it's a dead heat except for Captain America's super-soldier enhancements that give him a slight advantage. Batman would win his share but Cap would win slightly more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X When it comes to two guys squaring off and knowing the other guy is after them, it's a dead heat except for Captain America's super-soldier enhancements that give him a slight advantage. Batman would win his share but Cap would win slightly more. He doesn't have them anymore. His physiology is 100% normal. They had a rather long story that culminated in Cap's learning that the Super Soldier serum wore off a long, long time ago... he's just been keeping in shape, and the training never wears off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by Worldmaker He doesn't have them anymore. His physiology is 100% normal. They had a rather long story that culminated in Cap's learning that the Super Soldier serum wore off a long, long time ago... he's just been keeping in shape, and the training never wears off. Lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Funny last I heard was that it had rewritten his DNA and that it could not be purged from his system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz Funny last I heard was that it had rewritten his DNA and that it could not be purged from his system... Heh. Wouldn't surprise me if they retconned the retcon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 I'm just impressed that after all these years of being thwarted by just about everybody, it looks like one of the Grandmaster's schemes may actually have worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 If he gets to slap around Krona, I'm wondering who is waiting in the wings? Are they going to pull a switcheroo and have Thanos and some by-blow of the Anti-monitor show up? Something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Let's not forget Metron - he must have some stake in what's going on, and he's always been a wild card. We've also had Eternity and (I think) Kismet prominently displayed near the beginning of the first two issues. I wouldn't be surprised if they would become involved in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X If he gets to slap around Krona, I'm wondering who is waiting in the wings? Are they going to pull a switcheroo and have Thanos and some by-blow of the Anti-monitor show up? Something else? I don't think that anyone is waiting in the wings. Judging from the items that he has acquired, Grandmaster should be all powerful. I expect issue #3 to start with Grandmaster casually disposing of Krona and setting himself up as the man in charge. Now what do you do if you are the Grandmaster and now running everything? D'uh, you hold a contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by Ranxerox I don't think that anyone is waiting in the wings. Judging from the items that he has acquired, Grandmaster should be all powerful. I expect issue #3 to start with Grandmaster casually disposing of Krona and setting himself up as the man in charge. Now what do you do if you are the Grandmaster and now running everything? D'uh, you hold a contest. That sounds pretty logical. That doesn't mean that's what is going to happen but I like the sound of it. I'm sure if it goes down this way Krona will have something to say about it in issue 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Au contraire, Cap is quite capable of controlling the battlefield. When it comes to solving riddles, I give it to Batman. When it comes to two guys squaring off and knowing the other guy is after them, it's a dead heat except for Captain America's super-soldier enhancements that give him a slight advantage. Batman would win his share but Cap would win slightly more. I'm not trying to slight Cap's smarts & tactical abilities, far from it. But come on, Batman's got so many toys that with enough preparation, he practically gave Superman a run for his money. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by Starlord The image is cool (and if it's not Perez it's a good imitator), but not the 'idea' of it in my opinion. In other words, if this turns out to be a 'let's-give-all-our-powers-and-weapons-to-Supes-and-he'll-save-the-day' type of ending, I'll be disappointed. Well that is the front cover. There is red energy flowing in the background and where the lightning hits the edge of the frame a little blue maybe green energy. All of that red material could be Supe's cape, but it could also be some red material drifting from the back cover, which I suspect will be a Marvel character with a couple of DC items. I vote for Wanda with GL's Ring and Diana's Lasso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4y Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 I'm not trying to slight Cap's smarts & tactical abilities, far from it. But come on, Batman's got so many toys that with enough preparation, he practically gave Superman a run for his money. Batman has kicked Superman's butt at least once. Just goes to prove the million monkey theory, or in this cause, writers. I still can't help but cringe at how bloody aweful that picture is. I have trouble believing a profession artist could do something that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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