JLA vs. Avengers #2 (Spoilers)

[KawangaKid]

Well, according the the latest JLA vs. Avengers, Thor goes down under the fists of Superman. Supes managed to say "...may have been the toughest opponent I've ever..." before being gang-mauled by the other Avengers.

 

As for Cap vs. Bats, they did a little dance... check out each others stances, combat abilities, reflexes... very little combat. Finally Bats admits that Cap would beat him after a very long battle. Then they both decide to get to the bottom of whoever is manipulating the two teams.

 

One of the other things I liked is the fact that there are differences between the universes that affect powers. Flash's Speed Force is one. Chaos Magic is another... The Scarlet Witch barely held up under the corruptive influence of Chaos in the DC Universe, but it gave her immense power there.

 

I liked Captain Marvel attuning her abilites to drain Green Lantern's ring, and Kyle's subsequent attempt to recharge from the Cosmic Cube.

 

I liked how Hawkeye tried to take out the Flash with the Boomerang Arrow, but Flash comments on his prior experience with boomerangs. I liked the Wonder Woman vs. Hercules confrontation in Asgard.

 

4 issues is too short for this series. It should've been a maxi-series (12 issues).

[Chuckg]

My own comments:

 

 

a) Of course, that 'Cap would win eventually' assumes that both sides are fighting fair.

 

Batman. Fight fair. Now pull the other one, it's got bells on.

 

But Batman's not going to *tell* Cap that, now is he? Much better to surprise him next time.

 

 

Captain Marvel, draining Kyle's Power Ring? I really don't think she can handle that much juice... especially since, if this is Kyle's post-Ion ring, it *CAN'T* run out of juice. Ever. The most it can do is kick down to a lesser stage of output.

 

 

c) I also found it hilarious that Hawkeye would try that trick on Captain Boomerang's nemesis. Granted, it /did/ work for Hawkeye on the Whizzer...

[Grailknight]

I liked the way they used Captain Marvel. She was the only Avenger who could stand up to Green Lantern. Bats and Cap was a classic. Hated the diss they gave to Captain Atom and Firestorm but if they didn't the fight wouldn't have been balanced.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Chuckg

My own comments:

 

 

a) Of course, that 'Cap would win eventually' assumes that both sides are fighting fair.

 

Batman. Fight fair. Now pull the other one, it's got bells on.

 

But Batman's not going to *tell* Cap that, now is he? Much better to surprise him next time.

 

That is always brought up in the bazillions of Cap vs. Bats debates we've had here.

 

I still don't understand the assumption that Cap would fall to the ground weeping in fear if someone didn't fight 'fair'.

 

The Red Skull is such an 'honorable' opponent.

[Bazza]

I refuse to read this thread or the one in the NGD Boards.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9271

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Grailknight

I liked the way they used Captain Marvel. She was the only Avenger who could stand up to Green Lantern. Bats and Cap was a classic. Hated the diss they gave to Captain Atom and Firestorm but if they didn't the fight wouldn't have been balanced.

 

Let's say it together:

 

Quasar

[Col. Orange]

My 2p. I like the Avengers... well, I like Cap. and Thor, but the JLA are on a whole other power level.

 

Cap. vs. Batman: Batman's a better all round and more varied combatant but Cap.'s stronger and far more agile - they'd tie each other up for years, neither winning.

 

Supes vs. Thor: Thor may have magic lightning (he can use it indoors, in space, in the sewers...) but Supes is stronger and far faster - an exhausting brawl but Supes'd stagger away (after checkin' Thor was okay of course).

 

WW vs. Herc.: Herc. would have his ass handed to him, not because he's weaker or a worse fighter, just because he'd be awful distracted.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Starlord

That is always brought up in the bazillions of Cap vs. Bats debates we've had here.

 

I still don't understand the assumption that Cap would fall to the ground weeping in fear if someone didn't fight 'fair'.

 

The Red Skull is such an 'honorable' opponent.

 

Who the hell said that Cap 'would fall to the ground weeping'? You're deliberately trivializing the opposing POV so you don't have to look at it.

 

As even Nomad has managed to prove, Cap is *not* immune to a swift blindside kick to the nuts, or the tactical equivalent of same. And while the Red Skull might not be honorable, he's also not very cunning. (He *tries* to be, but eesh...) And far too often, the Skull defaults merely to matching his bare fists vs Cap's bare fist anyway... pride is a bugger, ain't it?

 

It's not unexpected that Cap can see the Skull's not really very sophisticated attempts to unfairly manipulate situational advantage coming and counter them. Batman, OTOH, is an entirely different level of opponent when it comes to deviousness.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Who the hell said that Cap 'would fall to the ground weeping'? You're deliberately trivializing the opposing POV so you don't have to look at it.

 

I'm trivializing it because it doesn't make sense. Batman is a relatively unknown entity to Cap, he'd expect just about anything. Simply using sneaky tricks from his utility belt is not 'unfair', he is merely using the weapons at his disposal. Cap would be ready for that (whether he could counter them is another matter).

 

To Cap all is fair once battle commences. 'Unfair' tactics would only work out of combat against Cap, perhaps depending on Bats getting Cap to trust him, then deceiving him.

 

Anyway, you had Bats himself admitting Cap is the better one-on-one fighter. They're probably even as combat leaders. However, Batman's strengths don't just focus on combat, he is most dangerous behind-the-scenes figuring things out.

 

Recently, Cap was powerless against the Triune Understanding. He didn't understand how to deal with them. I imagine Bats infiltrating their organization and exposing them in one issue or so.

[Chuckg]

> I'm trivializing it because it doesn't make sense. Batman is a

> relatively unknown entity to Cap, he'd expect just about

> anything. Simply using sneaky tricks from his utility belt is

> not 'unfair', he is merely using the weapons at his disposal.

> Cap would be ready for that

 

Cap would be ready for something he doesn't know about?

 

'Staying alert for anything' is not the same thing as 'Knowing about everything that's going to come at you'.

 

To use Champions rulespeak, while Batman obviously wouldn't get the x2 STUN multiplier for an out of combat surprise, because Cap is obviously expecting attack, he *would* still be eligible for a Surprise Move bonus.

 

And as narrowly matched as they already are, that's just the edge he needs.

 

[snip]

> Anyway, you had Bats himself admitting Cap is the better

> one-on-one fighter.

 

... by a very narrow margin, as both of them acknowledged that it would take forever to wear Batman down.

 

Incidentally, seeing as how Captain America has superhuman endurance -- he metabolism generates virtually zero fatigue poisons -- while Batman *does* fatigue eventually, admitting that Cap could eventually wear Batman down isn't actually conceding anything about a superior level of *skill* for Cap.

 

It's merely conceding that he has a borderline-metahuman physical attribute that even Batman's fanatical level of physical training could not hope to match.

 

Two guys. Both 99+% evenly matched in OCV, DCV, PD, ED, and Damage Classes.

 

One of them has 0 END for STR and Running and a 15+ REC, and the other one doesn't. If the fight can be dragged out for long enough, who's going to win? And by what superior "skill"?

[Blue]

Originally posted by Chuckg

>Cap would be ready for something he doesn't know about?

I tend to give cap the benefit of the doubt on all this. The guy has fought plenty of dirty fighters, as has nearly every superhero. It's just part of the daily fight against crime.

 

Simply put, I think batman's edge comes from the never-ending array of gimmicks he has all over him. They could fight a long time and I tend to think Cap would win, being a "super-soldier" and not essentially a highly-trained normal. But as soon as batman starts pulling out gadgets its all over. So it's not so much a matter of "fighting dirty", it's a matter of whether batman uses the items that make him the batman.

[Chuckg]

> I tend to give cap the benefit of the doubt on all this. The

> guy has fought plenty of dirty fighters, as has nearly every

> superhero.

 

Yes, but...

 

> It's just part of the daily fight against crime.

 

... it is not part of the daily grind to go up against dirty fighters *who are as skilled and creative at it as Batman*.

 

I mean, you can play chess every day of your life vs. people who actually are fairly good, but that doesn't mean you're guaranteed to be whipping Gary Kasparov's ass any time soon, does it?

 

Bruce is pretty much the king of, errr, "creatively and unexpectedly manipulating situational advantage", I believe is the proper euphemism for it.

 

Although, yes, provided that the utility belt is available, by all means haul it out first. Whatever gets it done the fastest, definitely.

 

(Sorry if I sound a little strident on this, but you have no idea of how many Captain America fanboys I've run into who have honestly tried to claim that the Mighty Shield would make Cap immune to flashbangs, sonic grenades, smoke, gas, being ninja'ed up on...)

[Hermit]

Just IMO

 

Originally posted by Starlord

I'm trivializing it because it doesn't make sense. Batman is a relatively unknown entity to Cap, he'd expect just about anything. Simply using sneaky tricks from his utility belt is not 'unfair', he is merely using the weapons at his disposal. Cap would be ready for that (whether he could counter them is another matter).

 

Agreed, one of the reasons Nomad got the cheap shot on Cap was because Jack was like family to Steve. Steve let his guard down for a friend, he wouldn't do it for a total stranger like Bats.

 

To Cap all is fair once battle commences. 'Unfair' tactics would only work out of combat against Cap, perhaps depending on Bats getting Cap to trust him, then deceiving him.

 

Yup, that might do it.

Anyway, you had Bats himself admitting Cap is the better one-on-one fighter.

 

Huzzah! Given Bruce probably does have "Analyze" out the wazoo, It makes sense he wouldn't wate time fighting a superior hand to hand opponent unless he had to.

 

They're probably even as combat leaders.

 

Here I must protest. ("I am not a merry man!" ) While, as always, it depends on who's writing, Cap has the proven edge in small unit tactics over about... oh, just about anyone in both universes. Heck, in my opinion, Nightwing is the better combat leader than his mentor. Batman is the premiere detective/deduction expert in his universe, Captain America is the tactic master on the side of the angels in his.

 

 

Recently, Cap was powerless against the Triune Understanding. He didn't understand how to deal with them. I imagine Bats infiltrating their organization and exposing them in one issue or so.

 

Or just having Wayne Industries buy them out

 

You can bet that after this cross over is done, barring some sort of mind wipe, Batman will be thinking of new ways to 'handle' the Avengers if they 'ever go rogue and we have to fight them again' and Captain America will be going over the battle and figuring out how they should handle the JLA if they ever must clash once more. Bats will look for individual weaknesses, Cap will look at the team picture and how to better coordinate on that scale.

 

It's just the way they think.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Chuckg

[bCap would be ready for something he doesn't know about?

 

'Staying alert for anything' is not the same thing as 'Knowing about everything that's going to come at you'.

 

To use Champions rulespeak, while Batman obviously wouldn't get the x2 STUN multiplier for an out of combat surprise, because Cap is obviously expecting attack, he *would* still be eligible for a Surprise Move bonus.

 

And as narrowly matched as they already are, that's just the edge he needs.

[/b]

 

Well, noone would know for sure what's coming next from either of them. That doesn't have anything to do with unfair or dirty tactics, just clever fighting. Cap isn't a 'clever' fighter??? For example, Bats couldn't be prepared for Caps to seemingly throw his shield away, meanwhile its bouncing off 5 walls, and streaking for his back. That's not 'dirty' or 'unfair', just clever.

[Starlord]

Re: Just IMO

 

Originally posted by Hermit

Here I must protest. ("I am not a merry man!" ) While, as always, it depends on who's writing, Cap has the proven edge in small unit tactics over about... oh, just about anyone in both universes. Heck, in my opinion, Nightwing is the better combat leader than his mentor. Batman is the premiere detective/deduction expert in his universe, Captain America is the tactic master on the side of the angels in his.

 

Agreed for the most part. You alluded to where I was going later in your post. Cap would manage team tactics better. I think Batman can even things out because, whether leading or not, he would quickly deduce the villains weakness and use his teammates to exploit it.

[Chuckg]

[snip]

> Cap isn't a 'clever' fighter???

 

Cap is less clever than Batman. This is no shame... pretty much everybody short of intellects like Victor von Doom is less clever than Batman, especially inside one of Batman's specialities.

 

> For example, Bats couldn't be prepared for Caps to

> seemingly throw his shield away, meanwhile its bouncing off

> 5 walls, and streaking for his back. That's not 'dirty'

> or 'unfair', just clever.

 

Actually, Batman *can* quite logically be prepared for that... the concept of the "pretend to miss but actually boomerang around and hit 'em in the back when they're not expecting it" shot is something that Batman has not only repeatedly seen before(*), but repeatedly *used* before. If a fighter of Cap's obvious skill level makes that apparently senseless a miss, one of the *first* things that should come to his mind is "that damn thing's gonna rebound and try to bite me in the butt".

 

As for their relative benefits in team leadership -- Captain America, no contest. Nightwing might make Cap work for it(**), Batman wouldn't. Bruce's role on a team is optimized as 'guy who figures out what strategy needs to be executed and then hands it over to the team leader for execution", not as "guy who actually leads the team himself".

 

 

 

(*) From Oliver Queen, Connor Hawke, Captain Boomerang, and God alone knows how many others...

 

 

(**) The Avengers, for many years, have been composed of mostly professionals who take direction well, and even those prima donnas who don't still respect *Cap* too much to give him any trouble, even if they give other Avengers chairmen trouble.

 

Nightwing, OTOH, has been leading the Titans -- which, in all of that team's incarnations, has been unfavorably compared to herding kittens. Kittens with ADHD. On crack.

 

 

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Actually, Batman *can* quite logically be prepared for that... the concept of the "pretend to miss but actually boomerang around and hit 'em in the back when they're not expecting it" shot is something that Batman has not only repeatedly seen before(*), but repeatedly *used* before.

Though I could see Cap throwing his shield and "missing" Batman and *oops* clobbering Flash.

 

My thoughts go back to all those Champions martial arts fights where it was who ever rolled well to hit, then rolled enough damage won the fight.

I think they both could win, but it would be a long fight at 1:1 odds.

[Chuckg]

> Though I could see Cap throwing his shield and "missing"

> Batman and *oops* clobbering Flash.

 

Unless Wally's having a bad day I can't, because assuming that the Flash isn't making the rookie speedster's mistake of repeatedly following a set route, predicting Flash's course that far in advance takes a precog, not a marksman.

 

OTOH, the *oops* clobbering somebody else is a valid tactic... at least, if there was anybody else on the JLA besides Batman who was either:

 

a) hittable with the shield, or

 

somebody whom hitting with the shield would do any good.

 

Given that six members of the JLA can soak at *least* artillery fire with their bare skin/force field (even Aquaman pretty much ignores small arms and STR 50 punches now), and the seventh has speed-based DCV I Don't Even Want To Think About it...

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Nightwing, OTOH, has been leading the Titans -- which, in all of that team's incarnations, has been unfavorably compared to herding kittens. Kittens with ADHD. On crack.

 

*L* On this we agree. In fact, it's one of the things that makes me regret not being a reader right now, I would love to see what Dick is doing with the Outsiders.

 

If you folks don't mind the topic variation....

Exactly who would you say is D.C.'s 'best leader'/tactician super hero? and who would you say is Marvel's best 'Detective'?

 

Off the top of my head, Nightwing might just have it for DC. Detective heroes seem almost rare in Marvel, perhaps Moon Knight? (Who is not what you'd call a top tier character)

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by Hermit

If you folks don't mind the topic variation....

Exactly who would you say is D.C.'s 'best leader'/tactician super hero? and who would you say is Marvel's best 'Detective'?

 

Mr. Terrific (currently in JSA) is probably the best tactician in the current DCU. Oracle is also very good, though she has obvious limits as a field leader. As for overall leadership, Mr. Terrific is probably more or less on par with Nightwing.

 

Wonder Woman *should* be very good at tactics and leadership, but this hasn't ever really been portrayed. Apparently Athena shorted her in the gift department.

 

One recent JSA showed Captain Marvel actually using his "Wisdom of Solomon" to good tactical effect, but that is ignored most of the time. For all he shows good tactical sense, I'm inclined to think the S in SHAZAM stands for Shemp.

 

As to MU detectives... yeesh, good question. Moon Knight might be it.

[SuperPheemy]

So, what we have is Bats and Cap squaring off in the middle of a JLA/Avengers brawl Royale. Both square off in classic Hong Kong Action Theatre master style (sans dubbing) and proceed to start fighting in a display that would leave Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan scratching their heads wondering "How dey do dat?".

 

Cap throws his shield, easily dodged by the Bat.

BUT, the shield was really aimed at Wonder Woman who, while fighting Vision might have been taken by surprise when the android fades into intangibility, allowing the shield to pass through him and take the Amazon by surprise.

HOWEVER, Wonder Woman with her reactions honed by deity-level reflexes and Amazonian combat training deflects the shield with her magic bracelets.

YET, Cap threw his Shield EXPECTING WW to deflect it, and actually counted on her deflecting the Shield, thus the deflection was actually a bounce attack sending the Shield towards

PLASTIC MAN! Who has stretched himself at knee-level to Quicksilver in a silly attempt to trip the speedster. Flung Shields don't bother Plas too much, and he simply takes the impact, bowing out like a trampoline and bouncing the Shield away. Sending it in a supposedly harmless direction, where it careens off a wall, the floor, the ceiling, and shoots back accross the battlefield.

JUST in time to fly through the wake of the Flash's passing, where the Shield's vector and velocity are changed enough that it screams toward Batman's unsuspecting head.

BUT the Bat was expecting an attack from behind and shifts his balance at the last moment to spin out of the way of the incoming projectile while using his change in style to sneak a devastating kick at Cap's midsection.

CAP takes the shot, rolls with it, catches his shield and with the momentum generated...

 

Watches helplessly as the writer, editor, and artist have simultaneous fatal annurisims trying to satisfy comic fandom.

 

In the aftermath...

 

Bruce goes slightly crazed, and goes on a crusade to eradicate such careless fandom before it kills again.

 

Steve is overwhelmed with guilt being involved in the deaths of innocent comic producers, he hangs up the shield and spends 24 issues of his comic filling in as a guest artist for "Family Circus".

 

The Fans continue to argue...

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy

Steve is overwhelmed with guilt being involved in the deaths of innocent comic producers, he hangs up the shield and spends 24 issues of his comic filling in as a guest artist for "Family Circus".

 

Actually, that's Kyle.

 

Hilarious post, though!

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy [/b]

Nothin' but net. Yeah! Now that's how a fight between Cap and Batman would go!

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> Cap isn't a 'clever' fighter???

 

Cap is less clever than Batman. This is no shame... pretty much everybody short of intellects like Victor von Doom is less clever than Batman, especially inside one of Batman's specialities.

 

Yes, Cap is less clever than Batman...but that's not what I said. You'll not convince me that Batman is a more clever 'fighter' (which IS what I said) than Captain America. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

In this particular context, we have Batman essentially admitting Cap could beat him in a one-on-one fight. To use your own words...this is no shame. Cap is all about fighting. Doesn't make him the better superhero, Bats maybe falls short of him there, but surpasses him in many non-martial skills.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Hermit

*L* On this we agree. In fact, it's one of the things that makes me regret not being a reader right now, I would love to see what Dick is doing with the Outsiders.

 

Hmmm. I can't see a scenario where Nightwing could boss Thor around like Captain America can.

 

Nightwing: "Thor! Fetch my slippers!"

 

Thor: "I SAY THEE NAY, STRIPLING!!"