Hermit Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Originally posted by Starlord Hmmm. I can't see a scenario where Nightwing could boss Thor around. Nightwing: "Thor! Fetch my slippers!" Thor: "I SAY THEE NAY, STRIPLING!!" Maybe, but Nightwing has studied manipulation from a master Nightwing: "My slippers so far away, but what champion of justice can I rely on to retieve them?" Thor: "Fear not! The Odinson shall return thy slippers to thee, or die gloriously in the attempt!" Nightwing: "Thanks Thor." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperPheemy Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 I just can't stop myself A night in the Nightwing-led Avenger's Mansion *thunder rolls through the base* Goldilocks shouts "FOR THE HONOR OF VALHALLA!!!!" and proceeds to Hammer-fly through walls, floors and ceilings in search of Dick's slippers. Sadly, "Nuffles" the team puppy has dragged Nightwing's slippers into her puppy-shelter to chew them to bits. But, undaunted the Odinson looms over the growling puppy. "Fenris Wolf I have struggled against and prevailed! Aye, I have fought beast and monster without number, so yeild to me the slippers of Grayson and I will show thee mercy." The puppy yipps angrily and snapps at the ankles of the Thunder God "SO BE IT! Thou has earned the wrath of the GOD OF THUNDER! BY ASGARD, GRASON'S SLIPPLERS WILL! BE! MIIIINE!" Thunder again rolls through the base, lighting plays about the Uru hammer and rain washes down in sheets. With all the might of his Aesir blood, Thor brings his mighty hammer down towards Nuffles. And stopps, lifts the puppy up, scratches her behind the ears, and gives Dick a pair of puppy-chewed, sopping wet slippers for his trouble. (Come on, you didn't really think I'd have Thor smash an innocent cute widdle puppy did you? Shame on you!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Re: I just can't stop myself Originally posted by SuperPheemy (Come on, you didn't really think I'd have Thor smash an innocent cute widdle puppy did you? Shame on you!) You just have to wonder if Thor doesn't get a kick out of making folks sweat though Norse humor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Cap and sneaky tactics One scene that stays in my mind from the pre-Amalgam Marvel/DC crossover from a few years ago, was Captain America fighting Bane. Cap hurled his shield at Bane, who dodged under it and seized the Captain by neck and leg, heaving him over his head: "By relinquishing your shield you've left yourself open to my back-breaking assault! What kind of strategy will they call that, I wonder?" Meanwhile, of course, the shield is arcing back, clouts Bane in the back of his head and knocks him face-first into the dirt, out cold. Cap calmly recovers his shield and says, "The kind that works." Steve Rogers is a man who's been in actual modern warfare, who's participated in black ops missions since WW II. He's probably not in Batman's league in cunning, but I don't think he lags far behind. It seems to me that Kurt Busiek is trying his best to be impartial in this series and not play favorites with the characters. I'm not sure most of us could resist that temptation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Re: Cap and sneaky tactics Originally posted by Lord Liaden It seems to me that Kurt Busiek is trying his best to be impartial in this series and not play favorites with the characters. I'm not sure most of us could resist that temptation. Indeed, better man than I, by gadfrey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Meh, that's not "resisting temptation," that's "wussying out." How much more cliche can you get than two heroes fighting, only to end in a draw? Yawn. Why bother? Busiek needs to show some balls. He did it with Supes and Thor, now keep it going! -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Re: Batman acknowledging that Captain America was the marginally better hand-to-hand fighter... ... well, yes. I'm just pointing out that it ain't all about the hand-to-hand fight, even if both parties are at hand-to-hand range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Screw Batman and Captain America... I want to know why Superman wasn't bitchslapping Thor around like Supes was an angry pimp and Thor a 14-year old hooker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Originally posted by Worldmaker Screw Batman and Captain America... I want to know why Superman wasn't bitchslapping Thor around like Supes was an angry pimp and Thor a 14-year old hooker... Well they already made it ridiculously hard enough to fathom by having Supes actually win against a superior opponent, your suggestion would just be totally unbelievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 I contend that if Thor were a DC character facing superman, I think Thor would win. It's not because there's some kind of favoritism going on here; it's just that the two companies have decidedly different approaches to playing "Gods". DC gods are more "godly" in their power. Like everyone else, I think the fight should have been longer. But I would have had the same result. The statement "He may have been the toughest opponent I ever..." wasn't supported by the small amount of the fight they showed. I would have had Thor seriously hurt Superman with his magic hammer. Then I'd have superman stop the hammer with his bare hands and the result we all know from the book. I think the result was just; however it was too short to be satisfying. And that is the problem with having 1.5 billion characters involved in a 4 issue series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by JeffreyWKramer Mr. Terrific (currently in JSA) is probably the best tactician in the current DCU. Oracle is also very good, though she has obvious limits as a field leader. As for overall leadership, Mr. Terrific is probably more or less on par with Nightwing. Wonder Woman *should* be very good at tactics and leadership, but this hasn't ever really been portrayed. Apparently Athena shorted her in the gift department. One recent JSA showed Captain Marvel actually using his "Wisdom of Solomon" to good tactical effect, but that is ignored most of the time. For all he shows good tactical sense, I'm inclined to think the S in SHAZAM stands for Shemp. As to MU detectives... yeesh, good question. Moon Knight might be it. Spidey, back when I read his books, was a pretty good detective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Blue I contend that if Thor were a DC character facing superman, I think Thor would win. It's not because there's some kind of favoritism going on here; it's just that the two companies have decidedly different approaches to playing "Gods". DC gods are more "godly" in their power. Like everyone else, I think the fight should have been longer. But I would have had the same result. The statement "He may have been the toughest opponent I ever..." wasn't supported by the small amount of the fight they showed. I would have had Thor seriously hurt Superman with his magic hammer. Then I'd have superman stop the hammer with his bare hands and the result we all know from the book. I think the result was just; however it was too short to be satisfying. And that is the problem with having 1.5 billion characters involved in a 4 issue series. No catching of the hammer. Avoiding the hammer okay - catching hammer is just bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X No catching of the hammer. Avoiding the hammer okay - catching hammer is just bad. We're talking about a hero capable of moving fast enough to catch bullets out of the air. In comparison, snatching something as large and as slow-moving as Mjolnir out of the air would have been child's play. The hammer never should have been a problem for Superman. And the person who says Superman isn't "worthy" to pick the thing up needs to go back and read some Superman books. So it should have come down to strength vs. strength, and I'm sorry, but Superman is all over Thor in the strength department. As I said, it should have been a bitchslap, with Thor crying for his Mommy at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Posted this on the NGD Forums, and thought it'd go well here too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Starlord Posted this on the NGD Forums, and thought it'd go well here too. Funny! Total bullshit, but funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Actualy I agree, Superman is not worthy of the Power of Thor, and I will tell you why. He is not a warrior, the vikings valued warriors, a man who goes insane after killing three people who DESERVED TO DIE (they killed an entire plannet save superman, and an artificial life form) is not a warrior. Same with Captain Marvel (DC) Wonder Woman however (Who is a warrior) should be able to lift the hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz Actualy I agree, Superman is not worthy of the Power of Thor, and I will tell you why. He is not a warrior, the vikings valued warriors, a man who goes insane after killing three people who DESERVED TO DIE (they killed an entire plannet save superman, and an artificial life form) is not a warrior. Same with Captain Marvel (DC) Wonder Woman however (Who is a warrior) should be able to lift the hammer Interesting opinion. Totally contradicted by the history of Thor as a Marvel Comics character, but still an interesting theory. In the history of Thor as a Marvel character, it has always been the nobility that matters when it comes to using Mjolnir, and not the "warriordom". Thor lost the use of the hammer temporarily when his ethical character... not his bravery or courage or skill as a fighter, but his ETHICAL CHARACTER... was no longer up to snuff; and let me point out that Beta Ray Bill, for example, was a scientist and an explorer, not a warrior, before he met Thor... but he was a *noble* and *goodly* scientist and explorer, and he had no problem hefting the hammer at all. (And yes, Beta Ray Bill is a warrior *now*, but you made warriordom a condition of using the hammer, and Bill's warriordom was thrust upon him ex-post facto). Now, anyone here want to try and say that Superman isn't as noble as Thor, and thus not worthy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 I agree the nobility of spirit is part of it, I am just saying that being a warrior is part of it too: Ahh but I do know my Thor history so let us look at those who have lifted the hammer Don Blake: Actualy he was Thor in disguise Captain America/Steve Rogers: He served his time in WWII and was more than willing to kill when the time calls for it (However he is reluctant to do so) Beta Ray Bill: The guy who was willing (AND CAPABLE) of killing Thor to make sure his people got to saftey Sigmond (IIRC): Thor in disguise again Thunderstrike/Eric Masterson: Originaly Bounded with Thor, and then Thor was "repressed" into him. There is only one individual I do not know about, he is from the future, I fear I know very little of him The only other four people I know of to lift it are Odin (Want to debate this one?), Wonder Woman, Thor's son (Guardians of the Galaxy), and I seem to recall a walk on of a Cop who handed it to him, but can't swear to that one. So unless Future boy was a librarian, I think my theroy stands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz I agree the nobility of spirit is part of it, I am just saying that being a warrior is part of it too: Ahh but I do know my Thor history so let us look at those who have lifted the hammer Don Blake: Actualy he was Thor in disguise Captain America/Steve Rogers: He served his time in WWII and was more than willing to kill when the time calls for it (However he is reluctant to do so) Beta Ray Bill: The guy who was willing (AND CAPABLE) of killing Thor to make sure his people got to saftey Sigmond (IIRC): Thor in disguise again Thunderstrike/Eric Masterson: Originaly Bounded with Thor, and then Thor was "repressed" into him. There is only one individual I do not know about, he is from the future, I fear I know very little of him The only other four people I know of to lift it are Odin (Want to debate this one?), Wonder Woman, Thor's son (Guardians of the Galaxy), and I seem to recall a walk on of a Cop who handed it to him, but can't swear to that one. So unless Future boy was a librarian, I think my theroy stands... So all it takes is a willingness to kill someone else and nobility? So anyone who was noble and *did* kill someone is thus qualified, because you do not kill someone without being willing to do so. Superman, for example. Sorry, but I still think you're off base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Worldmaker We're talking about a hero capable of moving fast enough to catch bullets out of the air. In comparison, snatching something as large and as slow-moving as Mjolnir out of the air would have been child's play. The hammer never should have been a problem for Superman. And the person who says Superman isn't "worthy" to pick the thing up needs to go back and read some Superman books. So it should have come down to strength vs. strength, and I'm sorry, but Superman is all over Thor in the strength department. As I said, it should have been a bitchslap, with Thor crying for his Mommy at the end. You don't read enough Thor, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 By the old definition of the enchantment, Superman should be able to lift the hammer. He's been retconned so many times by now that you'd need a lawyer and an archivist to figure it out. But I'd be surprised if Supers didn't lift the hammer during this series. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Superman as warrior I can understand the "warrior" argument. It's not so much having killed, or being willing to kill, but accepting that killing may sometimes be necessary, which Superman adamantly refuses. That's more pasteurized than Viking culture, where killing your enemies (or being killed by them) in honorable combat was the greatest glory; but this is the twenty-first century, after all. Reminds me of the old Manhunter miniseries from the 1970's, where Manhunter is going after his enemies and Batman offers to accompany him, but Manhunter refuses, saying to him: "You have your ways of operating, and within them you're fine. But you won't kill. And this is a killing mission." BTW, if anyone is interested in an official take on Superman's "worthiness," this is supposed to be the cover to issue #4: http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0309/16/jlaavengers4.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Re: Superman as warrior Originally posted by Lord Liaden BTW, if anyone is interested in an official take on Superman's "worthiness," this is supposed to be the cover to issue #4: http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0309/16/jlaavengers4.jpg Well... I won't gloat, as I am above those things. But I will say "I told you so!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4y Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 BTW, if anyone is interested in an official take on Superman's "worthiness," this is supposed to be the cover to issue #4: http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stor...laavengers4.jpg All in all a very poorly drawn picture. Proportions suck, his grip on the hammer is wrong and holding the shield up there to protect, what exactly, the air beside his left shoulder? Must be to make sure you can still see his chest (otherwise we'd have no idea it's Superman if we can't see the 'S', right?) If thats Superman then the 'S' is for "Special." I seriously doubt thats the picture for the cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 I guess you could take up the veracity of the drawing with Comics Continuum - they're the ones who posted it. It certainly looks like a Perez drawing to me, and I think the odd proportions and positioning are just for maximum visual impact. It certainly is an unprecedented image in the history of comics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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