You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

[Cassandra]

Are superheroes by their vary definition crazy?

 

We know that Batman is obsessed with crime fighting to the exclusion of having a normal social life, and that Bruce Wayne's wealthy is a facade to support his crusade.

 

We know that Wonder Woman wishes to show all women that power they have within themselves through her example, although that is a bit much coming from an immortal super strong Princess who can deflect bullets.

 

Spider-Man uses his powers to make up for failing to protect his Uncle Ben, and hides behind a mask of humor to disguise his teenage angst.

 

The X-Men feel persecuted, even though they are in a universe that doesn't seem to have any problem with people who build powered armor or accidentally get the powers.

 

Then there are the Watchmen. Nite-Owl 1 and 2 were what we'd consider classic comic book characters, but the rest of the members have issues that make Batman look like the Millionaire Playboy he pretends to be.

 

So, are they all out of their minds?

[Greywind]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Nite-Owl had his hangups. That was shown in the arousal that both he and Laurie felt after the fight in the alley, and the sex they had after the building fire.

 

It does tend to take a rather different mind-set to put on spandex and throw yourself into harm's way.

[dmjalund]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

The X-Men feel persecuted' date=' even though they are in a universe that doesn't seem to have any problem with people who build powered armor or accidentally get the powers[/quote']

 

It's not the X-men that are crazy. It's the very selective prejudices of the world they live in, that seem crazy.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Are superheroes by their vary definition crazy?

 

We know that Batman is obsessed with crime fighting to the exclusion of having a normal social life, and that Bruce Wayne's wealthy is a facade to support his crusade.

 

We know that Wonder Woman wishes to show all women that power they have within themselves through her example, although that is a bit much coming from an immortal super strong Princess who can deflect bullets.

 

Spider-Man uses his powers to make up for failing to protect his Uncle Ben, and hides behind a mask of humor to disguise his teenage angst.

 

The X-Men feel persecuted, even though they are in a universe that doesn't seem to have any problem with people who build powered armor or accidentally get the powers.

 

Then there are the Watchmen. Nite-Owl 1 and 2 were what we'd consider classic comic book characters, but the rest of the members have issues that make Batman look like the Millionaire Playboy he pretends to be.

 

So, are they all out of their minds?

 

That was always my base assumption for Superheroics with the Hero system. Everybody felt that they needed Psych. Lims. to have enough points. It also seemed to jive with the comics, because what guy in his right mind would put his shorts outside his longjohns, don a mask (or some other means, of hiding one's identity) and go fight crime?

 

Having powers made you crazy, but in ways that promoted behaviors like putting on a disguise (the main purpose of a hero/villain costume), patrolling for trouble, rescuing people in danger, etc. Supers rarely do what they do just on a lark. Many of them need to do what they do to feel like they are "doing what's they ought". Good guys would be running around doing "good deeds" because they'd feel badly if they did not. That's why I would allow PSLs like "Code of the Superhero" and the like, in campaigns where it was generally understood by all what did and did not count as heroic behavior.

 

Real mass-murderers were never (in these settings) super-powered. They were invariably normal humans, just to remember that real monsters look like us, that normals can be crazy and do super damage, too. Besides, finding one person out of billions is more difficult than finding one out of dozens or hundreds (of known and suspected supers).

 

Likewise, villains may not necessarily murderous, but their madness drives them to come up with plots that often don't make sense or are easily thwartable. Others might feel a distinct need to earn far more money than they need, and will work for villains with a plan if they just can't come up with a plan that works by themselves. Even brilliant evil geniuses will habitually discount the heroes' ability to avoid or escape his "inescapeable trap" and get caught flat-dooted when they realize the heroes have arrived anyway "...But you were dead!" Sure they're crazy. They probably have named the syndrome by now unless supers have just arrived on the scene. Masked Avenger syndrome or something like that, I'd imagine, named after which hero/villain it was diagnosed in first, ot after the doctor who discovered it (and published) first.

 

Yeah, in most settings, I'd say so. Crazy helps, in the right measure.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Ever hear the old saying, "It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you"?

 

Book Of The Destroyer makes an interesting observation about ol' Dr. D. He displays all the textbook behaviors of megalomania and delusions of grandeur. Thing is, he really is more brilliant than everyone else, and he really does have the capacity to conquer the world. Does it count as madness if you can back it up?

 

Superheroes may think they have special powers and a special purpose in life, believe in aliens and the supernatural, be hypervigilant against attacks by their perceived enemies, even hear voices telling them secrets or what to do -- all behaviors that could earn them rubber wallpaper at the Hotel Silly in real life. But in the heightened reality of a super Earth, all these things may be real and justified. Can you define someone as "crazy" if they fit the world they live in?

 

Now at the opposite end of the personality spectrum from Batman, as in so many other ways, is Superman. Perhaps the most extraordinary example of superhumanity on the planet; but as Clark Kent he lives as normal a life as he can. Again contrary to the more recent interpretations of Batman, Superman as currently defined views his costumed identity as the disguise, and Kent as the person he really is. Ironically, in his world Superman could be accused of being crazy for hiding his true nature under the pretense of simple humanity.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

You know when I say "crazy" I am not suggesting necessarily bat-exhaust crazy, right? Just chock full of quirks and foibles, some of which can be classified as PSLs or other limitations. It's a YMMV kinda thing. Putting on Spandex or circus tights is not necessarily a prerequisite for crimefighting. Police wear uniforms. So do the Guardian Angels. Both wear arguably colorful costumes that look nothing like comic-book superhero-wear.

 

Some supers are more crazy than others. There are loads of healthy behaviors the super might otherwise participate in; why doesn't a superhuman just enlist in the military, become a firefighter or cop, or just go into business? If there are "sane" supers running around, they probably did just that. The villains, at least, would tend to go into legitimate businesses, at least as a cover for their illegal operations and to establish an alibi for themselves.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Well, consider Captain America, who did join the army. His commanders decided he would be more valuable in his stars-and-stripes outfit because of its symbolic value, the emotions that it could evoke.

 

That, to me, is the essence of the superhero (or villain) costume. In donning it the super takes on the qualities of something beyond the common man, something for people to aspire to, or to fear. It's a match for his or her extraordinary nature, and part of the mythic grandeur inherent in the genre which has contributed to its appeal.

 

I keep thinking back to one of the reputed inspirations for the character of Superman, Philip Wylie's novel The Gladiator. It's protagonist, Hugo Danner, is born with strength and invulnerability vastly beyond any other human. In almost every case of normal people learning the truth about him, they react with fear and jealousy, refusing to accept him. Superman in the comics doesn't evoke that reaction from most people, and while that could certainly be argued as being unrealistic, I believe the costume and code-name can be considered a major justification for it. In putting them on Clark Kent becomes an immediately recognized symbol of truth and justice, devoted to helping and protecting the whole world, embodying the best in human nature. Such a person isn't judged by the same standards as the man on the street. Clark Kent without the alternate identity is just a man with incredible, dangerous abilities, that most people would be suspected of abusing. Superman isn't viewed that way, because, well, he's Superman.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Well, consider Captain America, who did join the army. His commanders decided he would be more valuable in his stars-and-stripes outfit because of its symbolic value, the emotions that it could evoke.

 

That, to me, is the essence of the superhero (or villain) costume. In donning it the super takes on the qualities of something beyond the common man, something for people to aspire to, or to fear. It's a match for his or her extraordinary nature, and part of the mythic grandeur inherent in the genre which has contributed to its appeal.

 

I keep thinking back to one of the reputed inspirations for the character of Superman, Philip Wylie's novel The Gladiator. It's protagonist, Hugo Danner, is born with strength and invulnerability vastly beyond any other human. In almost every case of normal people learning the truth about him, they react with fear and jealousy, refusing to accept him. Superman in the comics doesn't evoke that reaction from most people, and while that could certainly be argued as being unrealistic, I believe the costume and code-name can be considered a major justification for it. In putting them on Clark Kent becomes an immediately recognized symbol of truth and justice, devoted to helping and protecting the whole world, embodying the best in human nature. Such a person isn't judged by the same standards as the man on the street. Clark Kent without the alternate identity is just a man with incredible, dangerous abilities, that most people would be suspected of abusing. Superman isn't viewed that way, because, well, he's Superman.

 

Good point.

 

It still takes an uncommon mindset to decide to do what superheroes are portrayed as doing: performing police, fire, and rescue duties without being specifically trained and certified to perform them by a recognized authority (depending upon the character; some have police powers or similar authority to act in an official capacity). Of course, superhero settings are slightly crazy anyway, in that everyone has pretty-much come to accept this state of affairs.

[Lucius]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Comic book worlds are crazy. But no crazier than The World They Call Real.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Some people would call me crazy for talking to a palindromedary.

[concord]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Here is an excerpt from the Wardens campaign where the resident Winslow Institute fellow, Dr. Saveda, gives the Wardens an assessment of a potential new member, Dawn... a young woman whose parents died in a plane crash just prior to her starting college.

 

From the Files of Dr. Miranda Saveda

 

What was I going to tell them, "Oh sure, she is a great candidate for membership in the Wardens. She is just as screwed up in the head as the rest of you."

 

No, I told them what they wanted to hear. She has a sense of purpose like most advocate paranormals, she believes... no, knows... that she has her abilities for a reason and that they are not just a random happening. She also has a driving desire to make a difference in the world and help others.

 

Hearing my analysis, they readily accepted her into the group.

 

What is it about the "orphan warrior" type, whether they are upholding the law or branded as "terrorists," they always desire to take up the mantle of champion of the people.

[DShomshak]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Heh. I'm just amused by all the "Gaining powers twisted his mind" statements in supervillain origin stories (it's practically a refrain in Champions: Villains I, II and III). Outside of satires such as the Guide to a Nonexistent Universe, though, I've never seen a hero's origin story use that line to explain why a formerly normal person who suddenly gains super-powers decides they should put on a costume and fight crime. I mean, if the metamorphosis of empowerment can cause one form of warped thought, why not the other?

 

While I have used the "twisted his mind" bit for villains whose origin was especially traumatic, usually I try to suggest they weren't very nice people before they had powers. Conversely, in heroic origin stories I often try to suggest that characters had heroic qualities already and gaining powers just lets them do good on a larger scale or more direct manner.

 

It's also worth considering that most notions of "normal" or "sane" behavior are based on people having a certain degree of power, i.e. almost none. When you can punch through an armored car, shoot laser beams from your eyes, fly or read people's minds, your choices become somewhat wider. Or at least your calculations of consequences change.

 

To return to the Doctor Destroyer example, he isn't crazy because he wants to conquer the world. He's crazy because he keeps trying to conquer the world through one grand gesture of overwhelming power. It's not hard to think of other, slower plans that would have a better chance of success.

 

Dean Shomshak

[kahuna's bro]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Heh. I'm just amused by all the "Gaining powers twisted his mind" statements in supervillain origin stories (it's practically a refrain in Champions: Villains I, II and III). Outside of satires such as the Guide to a Nonexistent Universe, though, I've never seen a hero's origin story use that line to explain why a formerly normal person who suddenly gains super-powers decides they should put on a costume and fight crime. I mean, if the metamorphosis of empowerment can cause one form of warped thought, why not the other?

 

 

 

 

/QUOTE]that sounds reasonable

[Cassandra]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Let's take a few comic book heroes and what their Psychological Limits are.

 

Batman

 

Code vs. Killing (Common/Total)

Obsessed with Justice (Uncommon/Strong)

Hated of Guns (Uncommon/Moderate)

Protective of Innocents (Common/Strong)

 

He never kills, but is willing to do what is necessary to see Justice is done. It's been said that Batman is the real person, and that Bruce Wayne is a facade, a means to an end to finance his crusade. This does make him highly functional, and gives him something of a social life even though he'd rather be on the streets patrolling. Batman because of his origin will never use a gun himself, but doesn't prevent others from doing so. He does protect the innocent above all, and that allows the Police to cut him some slack.

 

 

Martian Manhunter

 

Fear of Fire (Uncommon/Strong)

Code of the Hero (Common/Strong)

Desperate for Acceptance (Uncommon/Strong)

Protective of Innocents (Common/Strong)

 

Fear of fire is natural considering it's his one weakness. As the last Martian (until Miss Martian showed up) he was all alone, the last of his kind. As a hero he Protects the Innocents and plays by the rules.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Heh. I'm just amused by all the "Gaining powers twisted his mind" statements in supervillain origin stories (it's practically a refrain in Champions: Villains I, II and III). Outside of satires such as the Guide to a Nonexistent Universe, though, I've never seen a hero's origin story use that line to explain why a formerly normal person who suddenly gains super-powers decides they should put on a costume and fight crime. I mean, if the metamorphosis of empowerment can cause one form of warped thought, why not the other?

 

While I have used the "twisted his mind" bit for villains whose origin was especially traumatic, usually I try to suggest they weren't very nice people before they had powers. Conversely, in heroic origin stories I often try to suggest that characters had heroic qualities already and gaining powers just lets them do good on a larger scale or more direct manner.

 

I have to admit, that "twisted his mind" tactic in the Champions Villains trilogy annoys me with its frequency. Like you, I generally prefer that villains (and heroes for that matter) have something in their background that would naturally lead them to take on the roles they do. I find it more compelling when you can trace the path in a person's life that ends in such extraordinary personas.

 

I have heard Champs fans suggest that Nighthawk's origin seems like a pretty extreme reaction to a relatively minor trauma, and that his injuries from VIPER's attack may have included undiagnosed brain damage.

 

To return to the Doctor Destroyer example' date=' he isn't crazy because he wants to conquer the world. He's crazy because he keeps trying to conquer the world through one grand gesture of overwhelming power. It's not hard to think of other, slower plans that would have a better chance of success.[/quote']

 

Looked at from a real-world perspective, that's a very reasonable assessment. However, we're also dealing with the conventions and expectations of the comic-book genre. Master Villains in the comics routinely launch massive schemes designed to gain their desires at a single stroke. While that certainly reeks of impractical rampant megalomania, it also creates a single crisis and threat for superheroes to confront and defeat, which suits the dramatic and storytelling requirements of the classic comic-book format. Long, subtle plots that gradually, quietly accumulate power are probably more practical, but unless they come to a head in a big way there won't be the grand showdown and dustup that most of us comic-readers want to see.

 

I'm reminded of a degree of controversy over the CU's resident Archlich, Takofanes. Some people questioned his mental competence based on the fact he's been active in the modern world since 1987, and to date has apparently accomplished nothing more than random destruction. My feeling is that there's a fundamental conflict between the expectations for a comic-book Master Villain, such as Dr. Destroyer, versus a fantasy Dark Lord, which is Takofanes' background. If you read about Kal-turak/ Takofanes' activities in The Turakian Age, you see that he operated much like Tolkien's Sauron: patiently spending centuries building his power base, while subtly weakening and subverting those who would stand against him. When Kal-turak finally struck with overwhelming force, the world was unprepared to withstand him, and he conquered it and ruled for many generations of Men. It would be reasonable to expect him to follow the same tactics today, even though he seems like a sluggard compared to other Master Villains.

[Cassandra]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Superman

 

Code of the Hero (Very Common/Strong)

Code Versus Killing (Common/Total)

Loves Lois (Uncommon/Strong)

 

 

The true blue hero.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Let's take a few comic book heroes and what their Psychological Limits are.

 

Batman

 

Code vs. Killing (Common/Total)

Obsessed with Justice (Uncommon/Strong)

Hated of Guns (Uncommon/Moderate)

Protective of Innocents (Common/Strong)

 

He never kills, but is willing to do what is necessary to see Justice is done. It's been said that Batman is the real person, and that Bruce Wayne is a facade, a means to an end to finance his crusade. This does make him highly functional, and gives him something of a social life even though he'd rather be on the streets patrolling. Batman because of his origin will never use a gun himself, but doesn't prevent others from doing so. He does protect the innocent above all, and that allows the Police to cut him some slack.

 

 

Martian Manhunter

 

Fear of Fire (Uncommon/Strong)

Code of the Hero (Common/Strong)

Desperate for Acceptance (Uncommon/Strong)

Protective of Innocents (Common/Strong)

 

Fear of fire is natural considering it's his one weakness. As the last Martian (until Miss Martian showed up) he was all alone, the last of his kind. As a hero he Protects the Innocents and plays by the rules.

i remember reading somwheer that bruce wayne considers the batman persona to be his rea lpersonality while the bruc one is used for a relase valvue also i agree with lord laidin's nighthaw theory

[GoldenAge]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

read my sig,

[dmjalund]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Superman

 

Code of the Hero (Very Common/Strong)

Code Versus Killing (Common/Total)

Loves Lois (Uncommon/Strong)

 

 

The true blue hero.

 

LOIS: If it came to between saving me and saving the world, what would you do?

 

SUPERMANL It would never come to that darling.

[Cassandra]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

When the Joker poisoned Lois, Superman wouldn't kill him even to get the cure.

 

When Manchester Black made Superman think Lois was dead, he wouldn't kill him out of revenge.

[Nothere]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Insanity is not being able to accept reality. Thus there are a couple of factors to consider in deciding if a superhero is insane. First inspiration. In real life there are people who dress up in costume use superhero names and "fight crime". Not having superpowers they don't get into fist fights with gangs of drug dealers, but do more community outrach. With nearly 100 years of president they aren't crazy. Someone who suddenly can fly and shoot lasers makimng use of 100 years of president is also sane. The first person to do it, espically with little fictional president is a bit questionable.

 

Second why. If their worried about reprisals, or aware the cops don't like citizens breakinging into private prioperty to beat people up, they are showing sanity. If they have decided they are the one true deliver of justice, and or a symbol of hope for all mankind, please see a psychatrist.

 

Finally your secret idenity and you. No one knows that simple unassuming Billy Bland is in reality Captain Awsome. If you have ever had this thought please get medical assistance. You are not two people. You may act differently to avoid problems but you are you, not two people.

[DShomshak]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Looked at from a real-world perspective' date=' that's a very reasonable assessment. However, we're also dealing with the conventions and expectations of the comic-book genre. Master Villains in the comics routinely launch massive schemes designed to gain their desires at a single stroke. While that certainly reeks of impractical rampant megalomania, it also creates a single crisis and threat for superheroes to confront and defeat, which suits the dramatic and storytelling requirements of the classic comic-book format. Long, subtle plots that gradually, quietly accumulate power are probably more practical, but unless they come to a head in a big way there won't be the grand showdown and dustup that most of us comic-readers want to see.[/quote']

 

Hey, I know and love the story conventions too! It's still amusing now and then to step back and critique them from another perspective.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

I'm reminded of a degree of controversy over the CU's resident Archlich, Takofanes. Some people questioned his mental competence based on the fact he's been active in the modern world since 1987, and to date has apparently accomplished nothing more than random destruction. My feeling is that there's a fundamental conflict between the expectations for a comic-book Master Villain, such as Dr. Destroyer, versus a fantasy Dark Lord, which is Takofanes' background. If you read about Kal-turak/ Takofanes' activities in The Turakian Age, you see that he operated much like Tolkien's Sauron: patiently spending centuries building his power base, while subtly weakening and subverting those who would stand against him. When Kal-turak finally struck with overwhelming force, the world was unprepared to withstand him, and he conquered it and ruled for many generations of Men. It would be reasonable to expect him to follow the same tactics today, even though he seems like a sluggard compared to other Master Villains.

(I admit, I dislike Takofanes for reasons that have nothing to do with the character himself. First, I got there first, dammit, with Archimago. Second, Big T is designed to link two settings and genres, and I thought that linking all the HERO published settings into one big meta-setting was a bad idea the moment I heard of it. I still do. But that is a different topic.)

 

Getting to the point, I've thought it might be a fun "reveal" to have heroes, after great effort and danger, penetrate the mind of Takofanes... and find there's nothing there. Tens of thousands of years of imprisonment are too much even for an undead arch-wizard. His ego crumbled, leaving only fragments of knowledge and a force of magic that keeps him going through the motions.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Greywind]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

"Archie Magoo"?

 

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Hey, I know and love the story conventions too! It's still amusing now and then to step back and critique them from another perspective.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

I'm glad that the CU has a Dark Lord archvillain, and that there's an ancient age of wondrous swords and sorcery in the past of the Champions Universe. I just wish that the Valdorian Age had been settled on instead of a generic Gygaxian fantasy world. That being said, you work with what you've got.

 

The Archimago is cool, too; and the Zodiac Working is a great way to keep him "alive." In that sense, because it's all that we have of him in the modern version of the CU, the image that I have is of a villain whose master plan, by intent, no less, only really gets underway once he is finally, irrevocably dead. That's one cold legacy to leave to the world.

 

With Dr. Destroyer, well, we know that he isn't Doctor Doom, and I think that Steve's picture of him is on the nose, if you read between the lines of his "narration" in Day of the Destroyer He's bipolar, grandiose, narcissistic, and mainly rapid cycling, although his most severe depressed episodes have been pretty long. (Yeah, Albert, you totally just faked your death so that you could advance your technology. The Battle of Detroit wasn't suicidal ideation at all.) The world is hostage to (amongst others) a massively resourceful tweaker whose ostensible plots to take over the Earth are little more than the externally-misdirected aggression of a severe, manic-depressive. He's like that raving meth-head walking down the street, peering into the recycling bins, except that he can, and will, kill us all.

 

It's because the world has people like that in it that it needs heroes.

[Zen Archer]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

I think others have said similar in this thread, but:

 

In our world, yeah, it may well be crazy to put on a costume and fight crime.

 

In a comic-book world, it might well be a totally sane response.