DC Versus Marvel

[Uthanar]

What costumes do you like from Marvel Phoenix240? 

 

I think that most Marvel characters have costumes that make them look like they are a person in brightly colored spandex.  I like a lot of them, but they feel like that to me. 

 

DC has a number of costumes that establish an icon with me.  The Bat symbol, the red S.  Things like that.

 

Now Captain America certainly has a costume that establishes an icon to me. 

 

And Marvel has a number of really good costumes as well. 

[assault]

Marvelman became Miracleman because of Marvel comics, not DC's Captain Marvel.

 

Marvelman was, in fact a thinly disguised variant of Captain Marvel, created to replace the latter in the British market after no more US material was available.

 

Some of the original Marvelman stories are quite cool. Others are meh. They are on the kiddie side, but doesn't stop them from being good. Some are quite psychedelic.

 

Mick Anglo, Marvelman's creator, rehashed his Marvelman stories under various other names as well. If you want a generic flying brick, look at the bottom of the following page: http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/m/marvman.htm

[Nadrakas]

Wait... Watchmen "failed"? In what sense?

(Blink)...in What Alternate Universe did the Comic Fail?  Did I sleep through something???

[Old Man]

I strongly disagree on this point.

 

There are some key differences between how the two tend to costume their heroes.  DC heroes, like Uthanar said, tend to wear prominent insignia and very colorful, highly distinctive outfits.  Marvel downplays the insignia and outfits heroes in slightly more 'realistic' costumes, or even street clothes (especially jackets). 

 

Honestly I think this actually affects how well the movie franchises perform--putting the X-Men in black bodysuits with yellow trim is way easier to pull off in a live action film, whereas look at how hard it is for DC to come up with a Superman or Wonder Woman or Batman costume that isn't hated by half of America.  The briefs aren't red!  How can we explain the giant red 'S' this time?  How can she fight crime in a strapless top and a bikini bottom?  OMG they put her in pants?!  He can't even turn his head!  Nipples!!

 

One other thing Marvel does that DC really doesn't, AFAIK, is team costumes like the Fantastic Four or X-Factor:

 

 

[Andrew_A]

Marvelman/Miracleman was a blantant Captain Marvel (Fawcett) rip off (hense the change to Miracleman).  He was updated by Alan Moore and given a cynical "Watchman" style storyline where his young ally had become a ruthless dictator. 

 

Alan Moore is a very sad man.

 

That's going waaay too far Cass.

[Cassandra]

Wait... Watchmen "failed"? In what sense?

 

Because aside from the comic fan sub-culture, it isn't popular as opposed to Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, etc.

[Grailknight]

Because aside from the comic fan sub-culture, it isn't popular as opposed to Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, etc.

 

That's an apples to oranges comparison. I'd say Watchmen was enormously successful. It's easily the most influential work in the industry in the last few decades.

[drunkonduty]

I agree, Watchmen was a very good book and a very good movie. Although I'm not well enough informed about comics in general to say for sure it does seem it's grim take on the genre greatly influenced a lot of writers there after.

[Cassandra]

I agree that Watchmen was influential, but is that a good thing.  It sparked the whole depressing "heroes are crazy or worse the them bad guys" genre that even Alan Moore regretted (hence the "1963" series.)

 

The movie looked good, but it's ultra-violence turned me off of "Man of Steel".

 

I also have to say that the Watchmen was kind of a cheat.  You start out with the reasonable question of what would the "real" world be like with costumed heroes, and then you add a superhumanly powerful being who is basically useless because he can't take action he hasn't already seen himself take action in the future.  What, he didn't see that he was blocked from seeing things in 1985 and just didn't mention it to anyone?

[Cassandra]

Let me give you an example of comparison between the Watchmen and mainstream comic book characters.

 

Michael Caine has been in 129 movies (some of them TV movies), and has nominated for six Academy Awards, winning two.

He has been an actor for sixty years, and was Knighted.   Yet, when he dies he will be referred to as the actor who played Alfred in the Dark Knight series.

[Andrew_A]

Let me give you an example of comparison between the Watchmen and mainstream comic book characters.

 

Michael Caine has been in 129 movies (some of them TV movies), and has nominated for six Academy Awards, winning two.

He has been an actor for sixty years, and was Knighted.   Yet, when he dies he will be referred to as the actor who played Alfred in the Dark Knight series.

 

 

Wishful thinking. Michael Caine was an established actor with a lot of screen credits before and after Dark Knight. You're trying to compare him to Alec Guiness and the Star Wars films. The difference is that most people can't name a single movie Guiness made after Return of the Jedi. I highly doubt that Caine will be in the same boat.

 

Another point: If the Dark Knight trilogy is going to be remembered, it won't be because "Batman is an awesome character." It will be because of Christopher Nolan and David Goyer's work on the series. Would you be saying the same thing about the Dark Knight trilogy if it had been directed by Zack Snyder or, worse, Michael Bay?

 

Green Lantern is an awesome character. How many people thought Ryan Reynolds did a good job?

[bigbywolfe]

Wishful thinking. Michael Caine was an established actor with a lot of screen credits before and after Dark Knight. You're trying to compare him to Alec Guiness and the Star Wars films. The difference is that most people can't name a single movie Guiness made after Return of the Jedi. I highly doubt that Caine will be in the same boat.

 

Another point: If the Dark Knight trilogy is going to be remembered, it won't be because "Batman is an awesome character." It will be because of Christopher Nolan and David Goyer's work on the series. Would you be saying the same thing about the Dark Knight trilogy if it had been directed by Zack Snyder or, worse, Michael Bay?

 

Green Lantern is an awesome character. How many people thought Ryan Reynolds did a good job?

I thought Reynolds did an adequate job and might have been good if he had been given a half-way decent script. GL was not a great movie, but it was no where nearly as bad as its reviews indicate.

[kahuna's bro]

I agree with  bigbywolf on this

[Cassandra]

Wishful thinking. Michael Caine was an established actor with a lot of screen credits before and after Dark Knight. You're trying to compare him to Alec Guiness and the Star Wars films. The difference is that most people can't name a single movie Guiness made after Return of the Jedi. I highly doubt that Caine will be in the same boat.

 

Another point: If the Dark Knight trilogy is going to be remembered, it won't be because "Batman is an awesome character." It will be because of Christopher Nolan and David Goyer's work on the series. Would you be saying the same thing about the Dark Knight trilogy if it had been directed by Zack Snyder or, worse, Michael Bay?

 

Green Lantern is an awesome character. How many people thought Ryan Reynolds did a good job?

 

My comment was based on how shallow the media is, not on the body of Michael Caine's work.  Remember what happened to Cliff Robertson.  He won the Oscar for Charly, played JFK in PT-109, and his obit mentioned he played Uncle Ben in Spider-Man.

 

Regarding the Dark Knight series, yes Nolan did a great job, but he had great source material.  It is quite easy for a bad director to ruin an iconic character (Superman 3 and 4, Burton/Schumacher's Batman movies, Sheena, The Shadow, The Long Ranger, the Green Lantern, David E. Kelley's Wonder Woman, Brenda Starr), but the one thing they had in common is they took the character too far away from the source material.   

 

A Michael Bay Batman movie would be right up there with Threads, Wolf Creek, and Devil Times Five.

 

I don't blame Ryan Reynolds for Green Lantern.  I think it did as good a job with what he was given.

[kahuna's bro]

 

 

I don't blame Ryan Reynolds for Green Lantern.  I think it did as good a job with what he was given.

agreed

[Cassandra]

I also think that Helen Slater was charming as Supergirl.  The problem was the director wasn't doing a superhero story, and Warner Brothers disinterest in having a real connection to the Superman franchise.

[Greywind]

The thing with Cliff Robertson/Uncle Ben, is that it was his last role. Out of the last six items in his body of work, Raimi's Spider-Man movies are half of it.

[Cassandra]

The thing with Cliff Robertson/Uncle Ben, is that it was his last role. Out of the last six items in his body of work, Raimi's Spider-Man movies are half of it.

 

True, but hardly his most important work.

[Greywind]

Most recent. What the general population would know him for.

[Old Man]

In Caine's case, that would be the voice of Finn McMissile.  At least with moviegoers below a certain age.

 

I'd forgotten he was in Jaws IV until I went and looked at his filmography.  Poor bastard.  Although it would have terminated anyone else's movie career.

[L. Marcus]

"I've never seen the movie, but apparently it's rubbish. But I've seen the house it built, and it's terrific." Caine on Jaws IV, paraphrased.

[Cassandra]

In Caine's case, that would be the voice of Finn McMissile.  At least with moviegoers below a certain age.

 

I'd forgotten he was in Jaws IV until I went and looked at his filmography.  Poor bastard.  Although it would have terminated anyone else's movie career.

 

He actually missed out picking up his Academy Award for "Hannah and her Sister" because he was filming Jaws IV.

[drunkonduty]

Surely Michael Caine will be remembered for "I only told you to blow the bleeding doors off!" He certainly is in the UK.

 

A difference between his and Alec Guiness's careers is that Guiness did Star Wars at more or less the end of his career. (Of the 5 films he made after Jedi the only one I've seen is Passage to India. But Kafka looks interesting.) Caine has already done 5 projects since the last Batman.

 

But, and I think this is the more important factor, their careers have been very different. Most of Guiness's works were low budget (compared to Hollywood) dramas made in the UK. They were also very much made by the British, for the British. The style and subject matter would not have sold them in the US. Most of them would not be known to an audience outside of the UK. So the first time most theatre goers in the US ever saw Alec Guiness was in Star Wars. But ask my dad, 70 years old, English film buff what does he remember Alec Guiness for, it'll probably be for Smiley in the series Smiley's People.

 

Caine had done a lot of big name, big budget Hollywood movies before doing Batman. It looks like the new ones coming include some big bidget stuff too. He's just done more stuff a US audience would know. Thus there's more room for variation in what people will remember him for. Personally, I've only seen one of the latest Batman franchise, I'd forgotten he was in it. I will always remember Caine for the first role I saw him in: Lt. Gonville Bromley in Zulu.

[Cassandra]

Zulu is a classic.  Caine was great, along with Nigel Green and Stanley Baker.

 

Caine and Green were together in the 1969 movie Play Dirty, which was along the lines of The Dirty Dozen.

 

Shock Cinema magazine said that no one played a soldier like Michael Caine.

[lemming]

"And I've felt torture, I've felt pain
Just like that film with Michael Caine" - Godfathers "Birth, School, Work, Death"