Running Large scale batters

[phoenix240]

Recently there was a thread discussing the relative merits of different superhero role playing games on rpg.net for running "cinematic" campaigns. The Marvel Heroic Role Playing System (Cortex) was brought up as having the benefit of making it easy to run large scale sprawling battles (the final fight scene in Iron Man 3, for example) with relative ease while more tactical systems (Like Hero System) would bog down and require a great deal of prep work such as creating a huge battle map. It was a fair observation. Running an epic battle with dozens of super powered characters across a sprawling site (like a major shipping yard/coastline) would be a pretty arduous endeavor with RAW. Most of the action is in the players' heads in MHRP so its easier to handle large scale things though fine detail is reduced (The Extremis boosted operatives and remotely operated Iron Man armors could be lumped into "Mob" characters, for example).

 

I wanted to see if we could brainstorm some House Rules and new Subsystems for handling this kind of battle in Champions more easily. Maybe some things like Mook rules and abstracted movement and range? These could have application outside of Supers obviously as Mass combat is pretty common across several genres.

[Ndreare]

I am not sure if this is helpful or not. But I have always found that a game like Hero with a full robust rules set can be run in a rules light manor by choosing not to big down and just go with the whim, while providing all the details you want for those scenes were you need it. I do not think Rob or Steve or whoever else wrote the rules ever expected people to use them at 100% everything's. Instead it is like having a powerful computer, plenty when you need it and ignore it when you don't.

 

While the ultra rules light approach allows you to go with the whim most of the time. On those moments when you need the power of a detailed matured system it is missing which creates inconsistency.

 

This causes people to think, "well game X let's me resolve it in a single roll and game Y requires 10". When actually what is going on is "game X only gives you the single roll option and game Y let's you pick between 1 and 10".

 

We do large scale conflicts in our games all the time, the map is in our heads just as written without issue or rules change at all. We simply use the existing optional mook rule that a single sold hit from a PC eliminates any non named NPC.

[IndianaJoe3]

 wanted to see if we could brainstorm some House Rules and new Subsystems for handling this kind of battle in Champions more easily. Maybe some things like Mook rules and abstracted movement and range? These could have application outside of Supers obviously as Mass combat is pretty common across several genres.

 

There are mass combat rules in Fantasy Hero, but I don't think that's what you were looking for.

[Christopher]

The Extremis boosted operatives and remotely operated Iron Man armors could be lumped into "Mob" characters, for example.

 

I wanted to see if we could brainstorm some House Rules and new Subsystems for handling this kind of battle in Champions more easily. Maybe some things like Mook rules and abstracted movement and range? These could have application outside of Supers obviously as Mass combat is pretty common across several genres.

I am not certain you need special Rules for this kind of thing. Just seperate between game effect and special effect for the rules like you do for powers. Let's say you rolled 2-3 mooks into a single sheet for Combat Purposes (the 3 man squad) and the following things happen to this "Single Character for Combat Resolution purposes":

A character knocks out the group in one attack - describe how the hero takes out multiple mooks with little to no effort, a bit like Black Widow did in Ironman two with the Rent-a-Cops.

The "group" suffered knockback and is stunned - one guy flies. The others of his team run to him to help him up/look that he is okay. They lost thier phase, are open for followup attacks and they all "moved" the knockback distance. Same game effect, different special effect.

 

Second thing is, limit thier tactics. Maybe just disallow active defense (dodge, block) or give them such a low SPD/CV that it would make no difference if they aborted or risk being stunned. Asume they can only attack and move. Asume they cannot use advanced tactics (like taking hostages with Cover maneuver) unless they have somebody to tell them to.

[megaplayboy]

You can simplify and speed up Hero a bunch if need be.

1. Distance becomes Melee, Short, Medium, Long and Extreme range

2. Even numbered speed stats--2, 4, 6, 8--for all characters to simplify the speed chart

3. Standard effect for mook weapons and for attacks on mooks. Better still if standard effect attacks do damage in multiples of 5, and if one attack stuns and a second KOs a mook.

4. Players get one minute to declare their actions--if they delay, that comes out of their minute. No endless analysis before making a decision. If the player can't explain what they are attempting to do in one minute flat, they just can't do it, or they'll have to do it over multiple phases.

5. Don't track END expenditures, but don't allow pushing either under most circumstances.

6. Half rolls = max damage, if you want combats over in a hurry.

7. Keep CV modifiers to a minimum.

8. Among the villains, only the main bad guy gets recoveries. The heroes get recoveries in multiples of 5 stun.

9. Don't map combat on a hex map but instead loosely diagram where everyone is located.

10. If there's more than a couple dozen combatants, then abstract/story out some of the fighting and focus on the main battles, which should involve the PCs.

[Old Man]

You can simplify and speed up Hero a bunch if need be.

1. Distance becomes Melee, Short, Medium, Long and Extreme range

2. Even numbered speed stats--2, 4, 6, 8--for all characters to simplify the speed chart

.

9. Don't map combat on a hex map but instead loosely diagram where everyone is located.

10. If there's more than a couple dozen combatants, then abstract/story out some of the fighting and focus on the main battles, which should involve the PCs.

 

 

I think these are the key--just overall, lower the resolution of the combat in both time and space.  So instead of 2m hexes and individual segments, go a turn at a time with city block-sized hexes, and work out how many mooks on either side get killed.

 

This way, if there are supporting-cast combats happening alongside the main PC-villain combat, it can still happen without causing too much delay.  Basically each post-12 you would just work out what's happening between the National Guard and the Chitauri, and where the big crowds of innocent bystanders are.

[Armitage]

10. If there's more than a couple dozen combatants, then abstract/story out some of the fighting and focus on the main battles, which should involve the PCs.

 

 

A related digression, so I can share my pain.

 

Years ago, I was in a group that was playing through Day of the Destroyer.  When the final assault on Dr. Destroyer's island took place, the PCs were one of several hero teams participating in the attack, along with UNTIL.  At one point an NPC hero team got into a fight with a villain team "off camera."

 

Did the GM

A) Decide the outcome ahead of time and report the results to the players as part of the story;

B ) Decide the outcome on the spur of the moment and report the results to the players as part of the story;

C) Run the battle with the players temporarily controlling the NPC heroes; or

D) Run the battle solo, spending half-an-hour rolling dice and taking notes while the players sat around twiddling their thumbs.

 

If you guessed anything other than "D", you missed the point of this post.

[Greywind]

How large of a batter are we looking at? Ogre? Hill Giant? Storm Giant? Titan?

[dmjalund]

How large of a batter are we looking at? Ogre? Hill Giant? Storm Giant? Titan?

We're gonna need a bigger bat!

[Captain Obvious]

The Fantasy Hero rules can be used for this sort of thing.  It gets weird if you have a huge number of very different combatants, though.  If you have the full roster of the Justice League as one side of your battle, you'll have combine some pretty different power sets into one unit to keep things manageable.  Also, the FH rules-as-written don't cover a lot of powers outside of KAs and normal attacks (Mind Control, for instance).

 

One of these days I'll actually have time to sit down and work out my full War Hero rules.  I started doing this under 4th Ed rules, and then started re-tweaking them for 5th Ed.  Now I guess I'll have to do 6th, and hope 7th Ed doesn't come out while I'm doing it.  (sigh...)

 

I should have time next year to do it...

[Lucius]

How much batter do you need? You're limited by the size the mixing bowl you have.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says if you have Godlike quantities of batter you can make Pan Cakes

[phoenix240]

Sorry, if there's some way to edit a Thread title with the new software let me know and I'll fix the typo.

 

 

On topic, maybe the Swarm rules could be incorporated for large groups of basically identical opponents to borrow a concept from some mass combat systems?

[Greywind]

What? And stop the puns?