Dealing with a lethal campaign using character trees

[lou_tennant]

We just play characters with whatever EP they have earnt. Some characters have more EPs than others - but so have people in life - we even discussed this again more specifically. We all agreed that we don't mind either way, we trust the GM to keep things as 'in-line' as they feel necessary.

 

The lower point characters typically get higher EP rewards per scenario and _can_ catch-up. 

 

There are all sorts of other 'natural' ways that total character points can differ and/or be controlled without necessarily having to use gaming-fudge.

 

 

Something similar to the initial topic that we discussed recently was to give players a point 'pool' and require 3 characters to be built from this with max and min spends. This was primarily for a Champions game and was seen that it could allow for more flexibility on character concepts. Playing sessions would be put together (by the GM and players (at least in part)) to require different characters, or to be chronologically parallel or other to get a rotation or characters. Every player would 'buy in' to this idea and accept that there would be character point differences.

[Christopher]

I do see this as anymore workable. As you said about being adults, I think people might get more offended if you earned 10 pts with your first character and someone comes in with their third character with the same amount of points. I think that first you might want to make sure everyone is on the deadly game ahead of time. (wish I could link the thread that's in general discussion right now about it.) And let each character earn experience points in the game that they play. Is there a reason why a player couldn't choose a different character each session?

Don't think of it as "earning 10 points with the first charcter". If you characters truly are that disposeable, then they do not earn XP at all. It would be pointless to even track them on a per-character level.

Instead just track XP on a player/Legacy level. If one charcter dies (wich is expected to happen often according to the game premise), they just get a new character with the same XP (maybe with a small death penalty).

 

Am I the only one who sees this threads title and think 'Groot'?

I was thinking of this game, actually:

http://www.gog.com/game/rogue_legacy

 

The highest lethality (or expected lethality) game we ever played was Call of Cthulhu. It also had the simplest character generation system, and featured characters with minimal background or personality. if I write up one character to play four hours a session, and expect to play for 80 sessions, then that 320 hour character merits some up front work. If I expect him to get half way through Session 1 before being Monster Munchies, I won't be investing nearly that much time in the character. If I was ready to put 16 hours (to pick a pretty random number) into creating my long-term character, a character that will last a session or less isn't worth more than 15 minutes.

For a high lethatity game hero is too complex at creation indeed. Complex creation is one of it's core concepts.

 

Either Player characters are a lot more durable (more on the level of main characters then red shirts), or you need to make the switch a seemless (and painless for the player) as possible.

 

Why not just make character building easier with minimal backstory? That would be the easiest. And might be the best for a bloody campaign.

That sounds like the wrong solution to a real problem. Why fight the symptons instead of the diseasse?

I like a good problem as much as the next programmer, but I like it even more to KISS them in the face. Simplicity is the highest form of being advanced after all.

[Ninja-Bear]

Sorry christopher but I disagree. I gave a real solution to the poblem. Not sure though how you suggest making charscters more durable in a campaign thats supposed to bloody is a viable option. By the nature of bloody campaign then the pcs are more fragile. And as to hero being complex. It is more complex than cetain games however with alittle investment in time a GM can speed up creation of a pc. I can have a fantasy hero in 15 min.

[Mister E]

Having a character survive in a lethal campaign is a moral victory in itself. Sheer sports-person-ship ought to end any complaints players w/ still living PCs might have.

 

Dying in character is the greatest honor a role player can receive. Have fun storming the castle.

[Ninja-Bear]

Having a character survive in a lethal campaign is a moral victory in itself. Sheer sports-person-ship ought to end any complaints players w/ still living PCs might have.

 

Dying in character is the greatest honor a role player can receive. Have fun storming the castle.

Some players may agree with this however it really boils down to player expectations. I may be ok with stormming thee castle and dying but the next guy not. This is why the GM should really talkto the players first to see if its ok. And pregenerated charscters can help. Ime the less the player has invested in creating the character, the more a GM can do to the character.

[bigdamnhero]

I agree with the "Just make sure they have a couple of backup characters ready to go" school of thought.

 

The lower point characters typically get higher EP rewards per scenario and _can_ catch-up.

I've seen this done before, where the backup character starts out with fewer XP to reflect Newbie Syndrome, but then gets accelerated XP to catch up. Works for some games where PC death is not unheard of but still fairly uncommon. But if your PCs are going to be dying as fast as you think, they may not live long enough to get caught up, which could increase player frustration. I'd say keep it simple and have all a player's PCs advance at the same rate, so there's no "penalty" for dying.

 

For a high lethatity game hero is too complex at creation indeed. Complex creation is one of it's core concepts.

Less so with MHI tho, since very few characters have any real powers. it's not like making a 400-point superhero, or even a FH wizard with a long list of spells: Pretty-much just Characteristics, Skills, a few Talents, and Equipment.

 

Some players may agree with this however it really boils down to player expectations. I may be ok with stormming thee castle and dying but the next guy not. This is why the GM should really talkto the players first to see if its ok.

Amen! Telling the players to make sure they have 2 backup characters ready to go should be a tip off that this is going to be a lethal game, but I would want to get explicit buy-in that all the players are ok with it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Christopher Hero's core concept is flexability not complexity per se. Hero as you know has a lot of options so you can biild the game you desire and depending on game play/mechanics and genre, directly relates to how much potentional complex character generation has.

 

P.s. it took me a long time to understand this.

[Christopher]

Christopher Hero's core concept is flexability not complexity per se. Hero as you know has a lot of options so you can biild the game you desire and depending on game play/mechanics and genre, directly relates to how much potentional complex character generation has.

 

P.s. it took me a long time to understand this.

Every system that is more flexible is more complex/slower then something not flexible. Flexibility costs, always.

That is one of the first things you learn as programmer and it does excuse 99% of all lack of flexibility you see in other peoples work from learning that.

 

 

I agree with the "Just make sure they have a couple of backup characters ready to go" school of thought.

 

[...]

 

Amen! Telling the players to make sure they have 2 backup characters ready to go should be a tip off that this is going to be a lethal game, but I would want to get explicit buy-in that all the players are ok with it.

You could also go the way of Paranoia. Where everyone has 6 clones ready to take up the second they die. But then again it was developed with this in mind.

It is the only P&P RPG I know of that has Computergame like lives for characters.

[bigdamnhero]

Every system that is more flexible is more complex/slower then something not flexible. Flexibility costs, always.

Not necessarily. The bulk of Hero's complexity is in Powers. If you're running a game where the PCs are all vanilla mortals (to use the Dresden Files term), then all you need to worry about is Characteristics, Skills, maybe a few Perks or Talents, and some Complications. The fact that the section on Powers exists doesn't make anything more complex/slower if you're not using them. Creating a Hero character under those conditions is no more complex than, say, any version of D&D in the last 25 years.

[Spacethingy]

Not strictly relevant, but I once saw a build in this forum for a power that essentially gives the PC extra lives; I believe it was built as Regeneration (Resurrection only) with Charges, with a custom limitation "Player must provide an excuse for why the character is actually alive." The flavor being, of course, that the character heroically or luckily avoided death at the last second, ie the "My bible stopped the bullet" approach (or, alternatively, the "it was actually a robot that looked like me" approach).

 

If you just declare that every character has this power with, say, two charges that never recover, then you can kill each character three times before the player needs to make a new one. A bit more breathing room for making a lethal campaign, while your players don't need to worry about making multiple characters for a while.

[Lucius]

 

I did that write-up, but I got the idea from Zornwil.

 

 

"I insert another quarter for extra lives" is probably not a good rationale.....

 

9 Lives, AKA Cheat the Reaper: Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; +1/4) (51 Active Points); 8 clips of 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Minutes which Never Recovers (Increased Reloading Time: 6 Hours; -3 3/4), Conditional Power Power does not activate until death (-1 1/2), Does Not Work On Some Damage ([Player must provide a plausible explanation for why the character is not dead. Exact effects of Power will fit the story.]; -1/4)

 

They say life is cheap, and they're right. Here's a way to get 8 extra lives for 1 pt each. This gives a character a total of 9 lives (first one's free, remember) as long as the player - perhaps with help from other players, including the one running the game - can come up with some suitable in-game reason for the character to not really be dead, or to come back. Things like "Okay, the character's dead, but his identical twin comes to town to avenge him!" are cheap and cliched, so if allowed at all they should probably only be used once (after all, how many twins can one person have?) "I wasn't brain-dead yet, and the paramedics revived me" works too, maybe more than once, but the more often a rationale is used, the less plausible it will sound. By the time you come to that last revival, it should be getting very hard to find an excuse for living you haven't used....

 

If the character has some ready-made and reusable rationale, such as being a genetic engineer who could easily have up to 8 clones on hand, the requirement to come up with a plausible explanation is less onerous and worth only -1/4 or NO limitation value at all.

 

Although the charges never recover, you could buy the whole power again; but if you're dying that regularly, maybe you should consider a different character, or else playing with people who aren't out to get you. Besides, can you really come up with THAT many "return from the dead" scenarios?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

But "I have a palindromedary" might be

[Christopher R Taylor]

When I set up my Colonial Marines game at the local game store to help generate business and interest, I had a sign up sheet.  The game was designed to be very dangerous, with all the lethality options dialed up to max and a dangerous setting.  If a character died, the player put their name at the bottom of the list, and the people were to cycle through as replacements.  Because the game was more about gear and play than experience building, it was intended that people have a fair turnover (the CM being low on the gear totem pole).  I only was able to run one session though, so I never got to see how that would play out.

[bigdamnhero]

Neat idea, Christopher!

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't know that I'd be all that excited to commit to a game I'd only play some of the time. With a smaller player base, you'd have the same players cycling through new characters. If you have, say, 3 signups per player slot, then I'm supposed to, what, hang around the game store twiddling my thumbs in case my turn to play comes up (or the game stops whenever a character dies since we need to tell the next guy in line he's up next week)?

[Doc Democracy]

Personally I prefer the idea of taking an experience hit but get accelerated XP until the new character is back at the level but it really does depend on how often you expect folk to bite the bullet.  If it is an every other session thing, then I think I would assign XP by providing equipment that 'holds' the XP of the group and they can divvy that up as they need.  The characters themselves do not gain experience, the group acquires stuff that helps them survive and that stuff (possibly in an equipment pool) is always available. 

 

As such, new characters come in with no real difference to any of the existing characters but may have to convince the other characters that they can be trusted with the kit.  more roleplay, less mechanics.

[Ninja-Bear]

Christopher Taylor, I still playing around with writing up a one-shot with PRIMUS agents Infiltrating a VIPER nest. The nest has some genetic monsters running about (I.e. Aliens). What I considered is that during play if someone gets killed then they get to play either an agent from another squad, a VIPER agent or if dies again a VIPER scientist.

[Ninja-Bear]

Every system that is more flexible is more complex/slower then something not flexible. Flexibility costs, always.

 

I dare say that we both agree on Hero being flexible and that has an initial more time investment.  But I ask you, what is the flexibility of Hero is good for? The short answer is that the gaming group can play a game to their style of play. If the gamers want a lethal game and are concerned about character creation being a time consuming hindrance then character templates can be a viable option. And Hero is flexible that you can create your own or modify existing ones based on your needs. To me ultimately the flexibility of Hero is a tool for the game design not the goal of game design.

[Doc Democracy]

I think that Ninja-Bear is right. The flexibility of the system should mean that it is possible to play a game where the players experience is not so flexible or time-consuming.

 

I think that Christopher is right.  To get that game the GM inputs a lot of time and effort.

 

:-)

 

As far as I can see it the thread is about the inconvenience to players of a high lethality game.  If the GM wants to run one, then HERO will allow him to create a game where that lethality does not inconvenience the players any more than any number of other games (that are inherently less flexible than HERO).

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Doc Democracy I absolutely agree that no matter what you choose the initial set up takes time. Unless of course you run a pregenerated world.

[Lucius]

Game Operations Director: "Before you can scramble to your feet you feel the searing pain of the creature's claws sinking into your leg, dragging you back. Just before you lose consciousness, you remember one last thing from those legends you had scoffed at: a prophecy that a band of heroes would at last come to defeat these devils. If the monsters are real, surely the heroes are too, and with your last breath you cry out a summons and a warning - and then the darkness closes in. Okay, toss that sheet aside and pull out your main character. A few days later you're reading the paper and realize this is the second mysterious disappearance in that same rural county upstate. Maybe the nightmares you've been having aren't connected...you don't remember much of them. What do you think?"

Player: "I think I'm calling up the gang and we're going on a road trip to do a little snooping around."

 

 

Chapter One / Opening Scene Victims:  (Total: 135 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost)

Duplication (creates 2 100-point Duplicates), Altered Duplicates (100%; +1) (54 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Doomed. At least one must die in first scene,; -1),  Nonpersistent (-1/4), Only In Alternate Identity (Absent) (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

 plus

Regeneration (9 BODY per Day), Resurrection (56 Active Points); Resurrection Only (-2), 2 clips of 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Day (Increased Reloading Time: 6 Hours; -1 1/4), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Is a completely different person in different place; -1), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

plus (OPTIONAL)

Mind Link , One Specific Mind, No LOS Needed, Psychic Bond, Unlimited range in this dimension (25 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1), Linked (Compound Power; -1/2), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Knocked Out (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 5)

 

At least occasionally, the player's (main) character does not appear in the first scene of the adventure; instead the player plays one or two people, at least one of whom are going to die in the scene that sets things in motion to involve the hero or heroes. Next adventure there could be a completely different victim or victims for the character to play out the death scene for. The second victim, if there is one,  may survive to bear witness and possibly help the hero; the hero may get nightmares, visions, or just hunches, if that fits the character conception, to justify knowledge revealed in the opening scene; or the victim could leave a diary, tape recording, message scrawled in blood on the floor, or other clues. As long as the player character gets some benefit worth the 20 to 25 pts this will cost.

 

This ability could work in monster hunting or occult investigation type games, but could also work in detective or crime fighting contexts (how many cop shows open with the murder scene?) or an espionage game, in which case the victim could be the prior agent who failed in this mission or an assassin's victim or the innocent bystander who stumbled into something big and got killed for knowing too much.

 

edit: just realized, I needed another Limitation on the Ressurrection so it's only for the Duplicates.....

 

edit again: actually, shouldn't I put that Power ON the Duplicates instead of on the main character? Ooops

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says we've gone from expendable characters to out and out doomed ones.

[Vondy]

In my opinion, character trees are better suited to games with much less intensive character building / design requirements Hero is a front-loaded system. Actual play is reasonably simple and quick, but building a character, especially for genres that use the powers section of the rulebook extensively (superheroes, fantasy, urban fantasy, horror, etc) can be time intensive. Even building a pulp hero or dark champions hero is more time-intensive than building a character in many other systems. As a result, Hero is not a game that lends itself well to "disposable" or "replaceable" characters. A tangential observation is that more design investment also tends to mean more character investment. So, character trees in Hero are something I would look askance at. It takes a very specific breed of gamer who also has significant time on their hands to want to build multiple hero characters "just in case." Character trees do work for games with minimal character design and an expectation of high-lethality. But, for me, if I were asked to build multiple hero characters for a game, I'd respectfully BOW OUT.

[Scott Baker]

In my opinion, character trees are better suited to games with much less intensive character building / design requirements Hero is a front-loaded system. Actual play is reasonably simple and quick, but building a character, especially for genres that use the powers section of the rulebook extensively (superheroes, fantasy, urban fantasy, horror, etc) can be time intensive. Even building a pulp hero or dark champions hero is more time-intensive than building a character in many other systems. As a result, Hero is not a game that lends itself well to "disposable" or "replaceable" characters. A tangential observation is that more design investment also tends to mean more character investment. So, character trees in Hero are something I would look askance at. It takes a very specific breed of gamer who also has significant time on their hands to want to build multiple hero characters "just in case." Character trees do work for games with minimal character design and an expectation of high-lethality. But, for me, if I were asked to build multiple hero characters for a game, I'd respectfully BOW OUT.

I think that for "normal" Hero System games this is true. Addressing this for a more lethal game may be as easy as using a system like the Superhero Gallery (Champions 6E 243; Superhero Gallery Expanded PDF).

[Ninja-Bear]

Also character trees are helpful if you want to run a one shot with limited time. I.e. if you have an afternoon to play and you want everyone to "make" a character in an hour.

[Mister E]

In high school we used to play Shadowrun w/ 3 characters ea.

 

Aside from the obvious lethality of that particular game, having 3 characters was nice because we were constantly splitting the party up.

 

Deckers were in virtual reality. I never played one. Building computers was not interesting to me at the time.

 

Wage mages in the Astral plane. I had an owl shaman that pretty much lived there & never died in game.

 

Riggers hijacked vehicles & bases. Custom vehicles got unsane.

 

Street samurai & physical adepts stayed in the real world & went anywhere a vehicle could not. Initiative & maxing out number of attacks was key here. That & Smart weapons.

 

The fastest character possible was a physad w/ wired reflexes. I called mine "Trigger". Trigger was inspired by Michael Douglas in the movie Falling Down. A postal wage slave whose mind snapped. He woke up one day w/ guns & grenades all over him & w/o any memory of how he knew how to use them. Short temper. Shoots first. Homocidal maniac. Mysterious multiple personalities. Very dangerous. Little help most of the time.

 

Everybody was so specialized that there was little people could do to help each other directly.

 

The GM was brutal. In order to be competitive everything had to be over balanced. We were finely tuned athletes w/ little room for error & it didn't take much to for something to go wrong.

 

Once we ea. made large corperate sponsered urban brawler teams for simsense broadcast & had them just chew each other up in a demiliterized zone for fun.

 

It was always hard to see a favorite PC get spattered. But it was fun.

 

It's just a game.

 

When the mercenary military grade equipment was made available I got the courage to make a super tough troll in heavy armor w/ the new source book.

 

The very first scene the troll steps out onto the street & gets its head blown clear off w/ ridiculously lucky sniper rifle shot.

 

I'll never forget it.

[Lucius]

 

At first I was expecting my Trollop (female Troll) character in Monster Hunter to get killed, but I'm starting to think she may last a while after all.

 

I do have a back up already made.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Unless the palindromedary ate it.