Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Pattern Ghost]

It was the 80s, they needed more ninja.

[Vondy]

It was the 80s, they needed more ninja.

 

Dude, what are you smoking?

 

Who in the 80's ever heard of a Japanese Ninja? 

 

That's utter crazy talk and disinformation. 

 

For your future reference: REAL Ninjas are white, American, and wear camouflage pants...

 

The 80's was the golden era of the white boy ninjas!

 

Betsy as a white girl Ninja would have almost been the norm in the eighties.

 

Except, well... girl power and a British accent.

 

Not that normal and eighties go together, mind you. 

 

But still...

 

[zslane]

I like it when the source material is honored as well. However, Marvel does play with the "traditional" identities of their characters through their various comic reboots. Nick Fury isn't just a graying white dude anymore. There's been a black Spider-Man. Ms. Marvel is an Indian girl. Thor was a woman for a while. There doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rule that says Marvel is prohibited from changing things up, whether it is in their comics or their movies or their tv shows.

 

If Marvel wanted to make Danny Rand an asian guy, they could have done so and it would have seemed as un-radical a notion as Miles Morales or Kamala Kahn. Given all the opportunities for change that Marvel has taken advantage of recently in the comics, it becomes a little conspicuous when they don't do so in other media. It just becomes fodder for SJWs, and the bad press from disappointing them is arguably worse than the nerdrage they draw for daring to stray from the source material in any way.

[Clonus]

I disagree.

 

I think they should stick with the source material. It has exosted these many years for a reason.

 

Now there are times in the comics where they experiment with these things, such as Nick Fury in the Ultimates line, which allowed them to use Sam Jackson in the cinematic universe. But in general, you should go with the iconic character, except for where it makes sense to do otherwise.

 

It doesnt "make sense" to change Danny Rand into an asian. It would only be for the purpose of satifying PC and it also strays into the area of obvious stereotypes. That should be avoided whenever possible.

 

I dunno.  "White guy who is better than Asians at the martial art they invented" is a pretty venerable Hollywood (and comic book) stereotype in its own right.  

[Vondy]

I dunno.  "White guy who is better than Asians at the martial art they invented" is a pretty venerable Hollywood (and comic book) stereotype in its own right.  

 

Mighty Whitey.

 

Scroll down to comic books and you'll find... Iron Fist.

[Enforcer84]

So I take it the white female ancient one is a huge issue for some of you then?

[Vondy]

So I take it the white female ancient one is a huge issue for some of you then?

 

Not for me. Its just a second string make-believe character. Who bloody cares?

 

Black Hamlet doesn't bother me one iota. White chick ancient one doesn't bother me, either.

 

Unless, of course, she's a crystal-loving, granola lifestyle, anti-vaxxer, vegan in yoga pants.

 

Well, unless she looks great in yoga pants and works as a tantra instructor and doula.

 

I could overlook a lot for that.

 

On the other hand, some people will be very grim if he's not a true to source Fu Manchu Ripoff.

 

Their loss.

[Old Man]

For example, Psyclocke is supposed to be an Asian girl, and they cast her as Oliva Munn who is half Vietnamese but it doesn't really fit the character.

 

Vietnamese is not Asian?  Furthermore it's not clear that she's ever set foot in Vietnam; she's an Air Force brat who grew up on base in Tokyo and graduated high school in Oklahoma.  At any rate she appears Asian enough to match Psylocke, IMO.  This casting bothers me a lot less than casting Black Widow as Major Kusanagi, even though she won't be Major Kusanagi.

[Enforcer84]

Not for me. Its just a second string make-believe character. Who bloody cares?

 

Black Hamlet doesn't bother me one iota. White chick ancient one doesn't bother me, either.

 

Unless, of course, she's a crystal-loving, granola lifestyle, anti-vaxxer, vegan in yoga pants.

 

Well, unless she looks great in yoga pants and works as a tantra instructor and doula.

 

I could overlook a lot for that.

 

On the other hand, some people will be very grim if he's not a true to source Fu Manchu ripoff.

 

Their loss.

I don't recall you bemoaning the casting Heimdall who was similarly a minor character. But I did hear some. Was wondering from their perspective. 

[Vondy]

I don't recall you bemoaning the casting Heimdall who was similarly a minor character. But I did hear some. Was wondering from their perspective. 

 

Look, anyone who hates Idris Elba... oh, never mind. I give up.

 

What we really need is Eminem cast as Othello in a re-skinned rap-tempo Shakespearean extravaganza!

 

Baby, I'm on a roll tonight.

[Enforcer84]

Look, anyone who hates Idris Elba... oh, never mind. I give up.

 

What we really need is Eminem cast as Othello in a re-skinned rap-tempo Shakespearean extravaganza!

 

Baby, I'm on a roll tonight.

Or John Wayne as Genghis Khan. Ooops. Been done

[Christopher R Taylor]

I thought black Heimdall was a bit much, I mean, you'd think that the Norse would have noticed this dude is black when they told the legends and myths these people were based on.  I can buy they got Thor's hair color off, but a black guy in Norway kinda stands out.  And the white British ancient one bothers me less by the change than by taking away a pretty significant role from an Asian actor.  I mean, how hard would it be to find an old mystical seeming Asian dude?  It was just obviously a "we need more women in the movies" move rather than any story thing.

 

Vietnamese is not Asian?

Half Vietnamese is not all Asian, nor less Japanese.  I'm not a huge Munn fan to begin with, either, but I haven't been terribly impressed with any of the X-Men movies anyway so, no big deal.

 

But for me, the casting choices matter less than the motivation behind them: they're not doing it for story reasons or character reasons, its the stuff Vondy and Zslane wrote about above, its striving for a checklist of "social justice" choices in some kind of virtue signalling that is just lame.

[Vondy]

Or John Wayne as Genghis Khan. Ooops. Been done

 

I mean, how can this go wrong...

 

[Vondy]

 

But for me, the casting choices matter less than the motivation behind them: they're not doing it for story reasons or character reasons, its the stuff Vondy and Zslane wrote about above, its striving for a checklist of "social justice" choices in some kind of virtue signalling that is just lame.

 

I agree with this element of it. I'm not a fan of being PC for its own sake. That's stupid and mildly fascistic. At the same time, I don't have much patience for reactionary ultra-orthodox fans, either. If an actor (or actress) has the chops for the role, let them at it.

 

My case in point for this is TV Elektra. Elodie Yung rocked it. She is eloquent, educated, (hot), has a black belt, and really respects her character. She brought a lot of other actresses who looked more the part would not have.I don't like flashback story-telling, but she also has a wild that suits the Elektra who always gets Matt into trouble. It can be done, and done well.

 

As for Heimdall, Marvel's Asgardians are space-aliens the ancient Norse worshiped as gods. At that point, Black Asgardian is not so far fetched. Besides, maybe the Vikings erroneously assumed it was like being Black Irish. 

[zslane]

I'd prefer it if Marvel was simply left to its own discretion on these matters. But the world at large won't give them that much latitude. Everyone with an agenda is pulling at whatever exposed thread they can reach.

 

I don't care how they cast any of these characters as long as they do them well. Look at DC. They cast Superman with a suitably handome, square-jawed actor who certainly looks the part, but they got everything else so wrong he is unrecognizable as the last son of Krypton, at least to me (and a whole lot of others, apparently). Look at Paramount. They so thoroughly destroyed the iconic Star Trek characters in the new reboot that I refuse to acknowledge the new movies even exist. There are a lot of worse ways to ruin the legacy of your most treasured franchise characters than to cast them off-race or gender-swapped.

 

Look, it makes sense to me to update characters for a new generation (as long as you do it well). It makes sense to me to redraw and redefine characters in an effort to expand the fanbase and enlarge the potential audience. It makes no good sense to me to change characters in fundamental ways just to pander to social critics who aren't as interested in good storytelling as they are in merely balancing the scales. By the same token, I am not persuaded by any argument that says something is superior or more right merely because it is how it's always been.

[Vondy]

I don't care how they cast any of these characters as long as they do them well.

 

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

We have a winner!

[Enforcer84]

That attitude would render much of the pre-movie bitching quiet.

[Pattern Ghost]

 This casting bothers me a lot less than casting Black Widow as Major Kusanagi, even though she won't be Major Kusanagi.

 

Someone made a very good point that Ghost in the Shell is very much a Japanese story, and shouldn't be Westernized. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

 

On the other hand, the character is a full body conversion cyborg, so the face she wears doesn't have to match her original appearance. The Major isn't usually drawn with strongly Asian features (though more so than a lot of manga/anime characters, where there's a tendency to whitewash the main characters), and Johansson doesn't really look that far off, discounting a slight epicanthic fold that's sometimes shown in the anime. I'd prefer a Japanese actress, and do think it's a bit messed up, but none have Johansson's name recognition in the US.

 

Now, if they change the setting or the story in too significant of a way, that's a step to far. Most of the supporting cast should be Japanese or Asian, in keeping with the setting and history of the setting.

 

Edit: I was looking for a profile shot of the Major to compare to Johansson's profile, and came across this, which shows what I was getting at with her resemblance to the character:

 

[Pattern Ghost]

BTW, I do expect Hollywood to screw it up, even though I'm mostly OK with the casting for the lead.

 

It's always best to go in with low expectations.

[Greywind]

I agree about Obama and about minor characters being shifted.  For example, Psyclocke is supposed to be an Asian girl, and they cast her as Oliva Munn who is half Vietnamese but it doesn't really fit the character.  Missed opportunity (I do appreciate her insisting her costume be purple at least).  Danny Rand, I don't care if he's a cracker or not; he's just not a big enough or established enough character.  Other less major characters you could do a lot with.  A black guy playing Wonder Man?  Why not, he's an energy construct anyway.  Others it matters more, like Tony Stark.

 

Eh, Betsy Braddock was a white British girl until someone came up with a bad idea.

[Greywind]

https://www.facebook.com/Marveldeutschland/videos/773072222829009/

[Lord Liaden]

Not super fond of how Black Panther looks but they still have all those lighting effects and stuff to do with the film digitally, so who knows

 

Fair opinion. To me he looks marvelous in every clip I've seen.

[Starlord]

I dunno.  "White guy who is better than Asians at the martial art they invented" is a pretty venerable Hollywood (and comic book) stereotype in its own right.  

 

I understand the sentiment, but I know I could google so many examples where a culture isn't the best at the thing they invented so its not really that radical IMO.

 

Off the top of my head:

 

British invented Soccer and Golf

White guy invented Basketball

Koreans are being surpassed in Taekwondo

Chuck Norris was an international Karate champion (almost your exact example)

Eh, you get the point.

[Starlord]

I'm just waiting for the day when someone complains they didn't get a Kryptonian to play Superman.

[massey]

I agree about Obama and about minor characters being shifted.  For example, Psyclocke is supposed to be an Asian girl, and they cast her as Oliva Munn who is half Vietnamese but it doesn't really fit the character.  Missed opportunity (I do appreciate her insisting her costume be purple at least).  Danny Rand, I don't care if he's a cracker or not; he's just not a big enough or established enough character.  Other less major characters you could do a lot with.  A black guy playing Wonder Man?  Why not, he's an energy construct anyway.  Others it matters more, like Tony Stark.

 

Psylocke is a British girl, who was kidnapped by the Hand and genetically modified to be Japanese.  Just to be pedantic about it.

 

Oh, and apparently I went to Jr High with Olivia Munn, but I didn't know it at the time.  I ran into an old friend a couple of years ago, and was talking to her.  And she mentioned how her younger sister had gone to Hollywood to be an actress.  And I'm like "oh yeah, anyone I've heard of?"  And she looked at me like I was dumb and said "yeah, Olivia Munn".  And I said "oh".  And it made sense, because my friend's last name is Munn.