Adding Damage to Nerve Strike

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm pretty sure a DC is a DC in 6e so it would be two levels to add one DC to any martial attack.

[WistfulD]

I'm pretty sure a DC is a DC in 6e so it would be two levels to add one DC to any martial attack.

 

Nope. In 6E, the DCs have to be divided by the Advantage level of combat significant advantages such as AVAD:NND. So in 6E, assuming that the advantage for NND in the martial art strike is +1, the DCs for martial arts DCs or CSLs would be divided by 1+1=2. So 4 CSLs per increased DC.

[Mister E]

Mama said, "Spock you out!"

 

Hmm...per the HSMA rules for building custom martial maneuvers:

• NND costs +1 point per 1/2d6 for the first 1d6, then +2 per 1/2d6 up to the max of 2d6. So 2d6 NND costs 6 points.
• NND also has to take the Uses No STR element, which is -2, so that drops the cost back to 4 pts.
• (-1 OCV and +1 DCV are a wash cost-wise)

So dropping off the Uses No STR element pushes the cost up to 6 pts; knock off the +1 DCV to bring the cost down to 5?

 

Or: What about changing Uses No STR to Uses Half STR, which is a -1 element? For anyone at 20 STR or less, the RAW 4pt maneuver is better, but at 30 STR you get a 3d6 NND. 60 STR Brick gets a 6d6NND, which is pretty powerful granted, but by superhero standards it's not completely unbalanced.

 

Or do we add STR as if it were Killing Damage, as Christopher suggested?

What about this maneuver element from the UMA 5e:

• +1 point to do +(v/5)d6 extra damage.

"A maneuver may have both NND DMG & v/5, where each 5" of relative movement translates into +1/2d6 NND DMG. The added damage cannot more than double the base damage; if the maneuver normally does 2d6 NND, then extra damage from the +v/5 Element cannot boost the maneuver up to more than 4d6 NND, no matter how fast the characters are going."

 

Clock!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Sure, but how many CSL's does it take to increase the damage from 2d6 to 3d6? (2 or 4 CSL's?) If the latter, then it is less cost effective than Martial Damage Classes. (3 point CSL's are the minimum that can be used to increase damage - 12 points vs. 8 points for 2 Martial Damage Classes).

 

*I have asked this question in the Rules Forum.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91553-using-csls-to-increase-damage-of-martial-nerve-strike/?do=findComment&comment=2441563

It takes 2CSL to increase damage by +1DC, which for Nerve Strike is 1/2d6, so yes, it takes 4CSL to increase +2 DCs.

 

Cost effective is irrelevant because those 4 skill levels can be used for other things as well, but they are there IF you need more damage.

 

And Nerve Strike is far more effective in heroic games where Con scores are more reasonable and it is actuallyy possible to stun people with them..

[Hugh Neilson]

Nope. In 6E, the DCs have to be divided by the Advantage level of combat significant advantages such as AVAD:NND. So in 6E, assuming that the advantage for NND in the martial art strike is +1, the DCs for martial arts DCs or CSLs would be divided by 1+1=2. So 4 CSLs per increased DC.

 

 

No

 

It takes 2CSL to increase damage by +1DC, which for Nerve Strike is 1/2d6, so yes, it takes 4CSL to increase +2 DCs.

NO

 

A DC is not 1d6. It is 5 AP of damaging attack. It takes 2 levels to ad 1 DC which, for NND damage, is 1/2 d6. 1d6 NND would require 4 levels, because it is 2 DCs.

 

Sorry; reading the flow of discussion, my post was unclear in this regard. In older editions, it took twice as much to add DC's to a killing attack maneuver, so that 1d6 HKA needed 4, rather than 2, levels (or 2, rather than 1, DC) to be increased one DC to 1d6+1

 

In 6e, though, NND is not a standard +1 advantage - the frequency of the defense determines the advantage, which determines the DC, which determines the number of skill levels (or MA DC's) needed to raise damage by 1d6. If rDEF is "common", the result is 5 points per DC. If it is Rare, the result is 10 points per DC. It seems like it could change by game.

[NuSoardGraphite]

 

 

No

 

 

NO

 

A DC is not 1d6. It is 5 AP of damaging attack. It takes 2 levels to ad 1 DC which, for NND damage, is 1/2 d6. 1d6 NND would require 4 levels, because it is 2 DCs.

Thats what I said. It takes 2CSL for +1 DC. For an NND attack (10pts per D6) it takes +4 CSL to get +2DC for a full +1d6 bonus. Some GMs allow a half die bonus for +2CSL.

 

Me, personally, I rate damage class by dice of damage, not the Active cost. But thats a personal House Rule, not the standard and I am well aware of it.

[Hyper-Man]

Steve's answer was surprising but it does indicate that he's following this thread.

 

I look forward to the response to Hugh's followup question.

 

from:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91553-using-csls-to-increase-damage-of-martial-nerve-strike/
 

 

Posted Today, 08:42 AM

I swear there’s a rule for this somewhere, but I can’t find it and I don’t have time to keep looking. So let’s say it takes2 CSLs to add +1 DC to a Nerve Strike, unless the GM rules otherwise. That’s simpler and hopefully helps make Nerve Strike a more tactically viable option.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

It takes 2CSL to increase damage by +1DC, which for Nerve Strike is 1/2d6, so yes, it takes 4CSL to increase +2 DCs.

 

Cost effective is irrelevant because those 4 skill levels can be used for other things as well, but they are there IF you need more damage.

 

And Nerve Strike is far more effective in heroic games where Con scores are more reasonable and it is actuallyy possible to stun people with them..

You could buy 5pt csl and put a limitation on only nerve strike (-1) and I would also define that as only increase damage. (-0)?

[WistfulD]

 In 6e, though, NND is not a standard +1 advantage - the frequency of the defense determines the advantage, which determines the DC, which determines the number of skill levels (or MA DC's) needed to raise damage by 1d6. If rDEF is "common", the result is 5 points per DC. If it is Rare, the result is 10 points per DC. It seems like it could change by game.

 

Which makes your "NO" comment all the more confusing, since that's exactly what I said. Assuming that the advantage were 1, it would take 2 purchased DCs to make an effective DC for the NND attack, because you have to divide it by 1+total advantage. Whether +1 is the intended advantage is not established, although Steve's ruling suggests that it is +0.

[Grailknight]

Steve's ruling confuses me because it is not consistent with the effect of 4 point Martial DC's. In printed material and Hero Designer, requires 2 Martial DC'S to add 1d6 to the NND Martial Moves and only 1d6 for the normal damage. Two skill levels only add 1d6 to normal attacks, so why would they add the same to ANY advantaged attack. No matter how low the advantage it still cost more than 5 points per die.

 

Edit: Looks like Steve has ruled that it takes 2 DC to add 1d6 to Nerve Strike.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Steve's ruling confuses me because it is not consistent with the effect of 4 point Martial DC's. In printed material and Hero Designer, requires 2 Martial DC'S to add 1d6 to the NND Martial Moves and only 1d6 for the normal damage. Two skill levels only add 1d6 to normal attacks, so why would they add the same to ANY advantaged attack. No matter how low the advantage it still cost more than 5 points per die.

 

Edit: Looks like Steve has ruled that it takes 2 DC to add 1d6 to Nerve Strike.

Good ole Steve. Consistent at being inconsistent.

 

Nerve strike is built with NND. Thats a +1 Advantage. This is evidenced in the fact that +1 DC for a martial art only increases Nerve strike by + 1/2d6. +2CLSs. Should do the same. If one wanted to be consistent. I know that I am not consistent at foollowing RAW aand I normally ignore advantages when it comes to adding damage,, however I observe maximum damage rules (no more than double base DC)

[bigdamnhero]

And Nerve Strike is far more effective in heroic games where Con scores are more reasonable and it is actuallyy possible to stun people with them..

Mathematically possible, yes. But odds of rolling 9+ on 2d6 are what, less than 20%? (Too lazy to do actual math now.) So 4 out of 5 times, you'll fail to STUN Joe/Jane Bystander. I don't consider that very effective. 

 

Great discussion on how many CSLs/DCs it would take to add damage - thanks!

[bigdamnhero]

"A maneuver may have both NND DMG & v/5, where each 5" of relative movement translates into +1/2d6 NND DMG. The added damage cannot more than double the base damage; if the maneuver normally does 2d6 NND, then extra damage from the +v/5 Element cannot boost the maneuver up to more than 4d6 NND, no matter how fast the characters are going."

So extending that same logic:

• 5" of Movement* normally adds +1d6, so here it would add +1/2d6 NND.
• +5 STR normally adds +1d6, so here it would add +1/2d6 NND.
• 2 CSLs normally adds +1d6, so here it would add +1/2d6 NND

I don't know why that wouldn't also work in 6ed (5" = 10m obviously).

[Mister E]

APGII p29

 

HKA has a GM option to change the standard characteristic used to add damage (i.e. STR) to another characteristic (e.g. END for a ki attack). This is free.

 

Multiple Characteritics is a new Advantage. With it for +1/4 a HKA can have a choice of either of two characteristics to add damage to it.

 

Why not use this concept for Nerve Strike? It specifically forbids the adding of damage w/ STR. Is that reason enough not to add damage w/ another characteristic?

[Hyper-Man]

APGII p29

 

HKA has a GM option to change the standard characteristic used to add damage (i.e. STR) to another characteristic (e.g. END for a ki attack). This is free.

 

Multiple Characteritics is a new Advantage. With it for +1/4 a HKA can have a choice of either of two characteristics to add damage to it.

 

Why not use this concept for Nerve Strike? It specifically forbids the adding of damage w/ STR. Is that reason enough not to add damage w/ another characteristic?

 

Since adding Advantages to Martial Maneuvers is poorly supported in the system at best, this just brings us back to rebuilding the attack as an HA with Advantages which I already provided a starting example of up thread.

[Hugh Neilson]

Which makes your "NO" comment all the more confusing, since that's exactly what I said. Assuming that the advantage were 1, it would take 2 purchased DCs to make an effective DC for the NND attack, because you have to divide it by 1+total advantage. Whether +1 is the intended advantage is not established, although Steve's ruling suggests that it is +0.

It takes 2 skill levels to add a DC. Always. It never takes three or more. It never takes one or less. Two skill levels equals 1 DC.

 

But 1 DC is not 1d6 - it is 1 DC. For a normal damage, no advantages attack, 1 DC = 1d6. For a no advantages killing attack, 3 DC = 1d6. 1 DC of Nerve Strike is taken to be 1/2d6, so 1d6 = 2 DC. It does not take "2 purchased DCs to make an effective DC for the NND attack". It takes "2 purchased DCs to make a full 1d6 (which is 2 DCs) for the NND attack".

 

Your comments equate 1 DC to 1d6, but 1 DC is not universally 1d6. Commingling the two muddies the discussion.

 

To the nerve strike specifically, my preference is to interpret the rule that 2 DC = 1d6 to mean this is a +1 NND advantage, which means the Defense is Rare. That means just having rPD is not enough to be immune to Nerve Strike (at least in a typical campaign in my experience), because rPD is common or very common, not remotely Rare. So I come back to my NND preference, looking less to mechanics and more to SFX. Combat Luck? No protection from Nerve Strike - those nerve clusters are still exposed. Force Field? Not "rigid"- no protection. Armor a la Iron Man? Rigid - protects from Nerve Strike. Some aspect of the SFX of that rPD has to go beyond simple defense, and actually create a barrier between the Strike and the Nerves. And I will interpret this in such a matter that the defense is Rare - at least as infrequent as the other defenses noted in the book as Rare.

 

So guess what, Thor? That Nerve Strike is just as effective against your Asgardian Nerve Clusters.

[Lucius]

So guess what, Thor? That Nerve Strike is just as effective against your Asgardian Nerve Clusters.

 

Funny you say that, I would have interpreted a sufficiently non-Human physiology as a defense against Nerve Strike.

 

Of course, I also sometimes wonder how effective Martial Arts should be against non-Human, or non-humanoid, targets. And if their impressive bang-for-the-buck (with Nerve Strike being the exception) isn't supposed to be, or shouldn't be, balanced by some kind of noticeable implied Limitation.

 

When it comes down to it there's not much Martial Arts does that Powers can't do - it just does it so much cheaper.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says abolishing Martial Arts might actually seem simpler, but it would lead to yet another mandatory "here's how you build this thing" example that must be included in the rules.  So it would still be taking up at least as much rulebook space.

[Greywind]

With the form comes the function.

[Hugh Neilson]

Funny you say that, I would have interpreted a sufficiently non-Human physiology as a defense against Nerve Strike.

Sufficiently non-Human? I agree - and I left that out of my post, so thanks for bringing it up. So, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch - no rigid PD and human physiology. Affected.

 

Iron Man? Rigid RD - unaffected, assuming he's in his armor. Captain America - if he can get the shield in the way, he's unaffected (how did he build the shield ).

 

Vision - non-human nerve structure, so immune.

 

Hulk, Thor - they look "human-compatible" enough to me, but these are the characters where rulings have to be made. Hopefully, the players are building characters, not the type that joins an X-Men game with a character description spending a page and a half on the composition of every item they carry to show there is no metal in it.

[Mister E]

Nerve Strike Impairing & Disabling w/ STUN damage is a signifant advantage.