Are tanks really that tough?

[Lucius]

 

Sloping armor:

 

Would this not be better modeled by high DCV (perhaps vs certain attacks) or else as Persistant Missile Deflection?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says if I find myself compulsively arguing about tanks I may have Turret Syndrome

[L. Marcus]

... +X DCV, Only On Front Of Turret And Hull? Hm.

[assault]

If it rolls "each time it takes BODy," then each hit will cause ONE roll on the table.

 

If I hit it for 3 pts of BODy damage, that's 3 pts of BODy taken, but only 1 time that it took body.

 

 

 

Umm... yes. I've never used the rule in anger.

[Hugh Neilson]

Except that when you compare the energy output of Thor (by any reasonable interpretation of the character in game terms) and the impact resistance of Abrams armor, one quickly notices that Thor can not trash modern tanks, no matter how much it may be "part of the character". The fact remains that modern military hardware has improved to a point where conventional definitions for Bricks (or any superhero archetype for that matter) are no longer adequate. And to make them adequate requires boosts to attack powers that would exceed reasonable campaign limits by a mile.

 

The alternative seems to be to nerf modern military hardware so that it is no longer so campaign-defying...

So, to summarize, you are suggesting the problem with adjusting the stats of military hardware is that it is not realistic for a modern tank to be damaged by a blow from the magical hammer of a Norse Thunder God. I suggest an alternative interpretation that, in the source material, these characters are fully capable of damaging and destroying modern military hardware. The Hulk has consistently shown the ability to trash cutting edge, and "beyond conventional science", military hardware. The Hulk and Thor have been consistently shown to fight to a draw, therefore Thor is equally capable of destruction of military hardware.

 

In the Cineverse, the Hulk did a pretty good job of trashing the Helicarrier without trying hard. Do you think the Helicarrier would pale beside a single tank?

 

I will reiterate a previous question - in the Hero Universe, could the infamous, overpowered Doctor Destroyer prevail against a single modern tank? If not, why was he not defeated by sending in a dozen or two tanks, rather than needing a huge array of Supers? 

 

I'll agree that shredding an Abrams with a single hit is impractical for a standard starting character. but doing Body to one is pretty straightforward, and the consequences of that for the tank are pretty serious. I'll copy out the relevant section from Champions Complete:

 

"VEHICLE DAMAGE TABLE

1d6 Roll Vehicle Loses

1 One 2x Noncombat Movement multiplier

2 10m of Combat Movement

3 Vehicle’s largest Power

4 10 STR

5 5 DEX

6 1 SPD

 

Each time a Vehicle takes BODY from an attack (after defenses), roll on the Vehicle Damage Table to determine the effects. When a Vehicle has lost all of its BODY, it stops functioning entirely (via simple breakdown or dramatic explosion, at the GMs option)."

 

As I pointed out above, Penetrating attacks will routinely do Body. A 3d6 Penetrating KA is a 67 AP attack - dangerous, but not all that awesome. And typically, each such hit will cause 3 rolls on the table above.

 

The tank is going to degrade very quickly, even if it doesn't get turned into confetti. And that's within the capability of a 400 point Standard Superhero!

 

Of course, that same hero is going to have trouble handling the main gun, but there are ways around that as well.

We should not need strange and unusual constructs to handle what should be pretty basic campaign parameters. If we give half of PC's (and at least half of those in my informal survey can easily trash a tank) a 3d6 Penetrating KA, then most Supers (and their villains) can inflict 3 BOD per attack pretty reliably on each other as well. So when that 5 on 5 battle starts, all the villains coordinate on a single Hero and he's down 9 or so BOD (2/3 of the attacks being assumed to hit). Should be able to kill at least one off every adventure that involves any kind of coordination.

 

I also think that, when the hero fires off a blast capable of Stunning Grond, but clever Grond leaps out of the way and the blast hits the tank behind him, the attack should not bounce off the tank. Since Our Hero isn't using his Custom Tankbuster Blast when he attacks Grond, the tank is unscathed.

 

We are left with the main gun which cannot damage the tank, but tears through the Super, and the Super's attack which tears through tanks, but presumably will be designed not to shred Supers. This seems like a huge disconnect which can pretty easily be solved in other ways.

 

Sloping armor:

 

Would this not be better modeled by high DCV (perhaps vs certain attacks) or else as Persistant Missile Deflection?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says if I find myself compulsively arguing about tanks I may have Turret Syndrome

It could also be Damage Negation which only works against certain attacks, or even defenses that only work against certain attacks. Damage Reduction also seems reasonable, but does not make the tank fully resistant to damage, which appears to be the goal.

 

Ultimately, for Supers to feel Super, they cannot be easily defeated by any mob boss who has the connections and cash to lay his hands on a tank. Why is VIPER using all that SuperTech that their enemies can trash pretty readily when conventional military hardware would be so much more effective? SuperScience should not have sub-par performance, should it?

 

There are two ways to fix it - rewrite everything else to deal with the current military tech write-ups. Or rewrite the current military tech. It seems pretty obvious which is a better fit with the "as simple as possible" ethos, doesn't it?

[Christopher R Taylor]

It was in Golden Age Champions I think that I first saw a build on sloping armor (from the soviet T34- tank that first had it), and he built it with damage reduction unless directly perpendicular to the armor.  Essentially the slope effectively thickens armor without increased weight and tends to at least partially deflect attacks.

[massey]

I think we can safely say that MBT armor has surpassed the general expectations of comic book writers and game players alike. If both were aware of just how tough an Abrams was, they probably wouldn't expect the likes of Thor to do more than slightly dent one. 

 

I say thee nay.

[Ndreare]

Dr. DESTROYERS 10d killing attack would damage the tank, his vpp could be used to make a 10d body drain and his 40r defence combined with his combat value, speed and damage reduction man's that what ever fool comes at him with only a couple off MBT would wish they had called in sick.

[Ndreare]

Destroyer versus M1A1 MBT

Speed = 8 versus 3

OCV = 10 versus 6

DCV = 8 versus 3 (strategically would use CSL to make it 14 versus 3)

Combat Skill Levels +8 versus +3

Defense = 40r (50% damage reduction) versus 30r

Body = 30 versus 25

Attack = 10d6 RKA versus 8d6 RKA +1 stun multiplier

Alternate Attack = 10d6 Body drain from 100 point VPP

Alternate Attack = 10d6 entangle locking down tank

 

I estimate that 100 tanks could surround Dr. Destroyer and he would be frustrated with how long it takes to destroy them, but as they would only hit him on a natural 3 he would only take a couple points of damage in the end.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Destroyer versus M1A1 MBT

Speed = 8 versus 3

OCV = 10 versus 6

DCV = 8 versus 3 (strategically would use CSL to make it 14 versus 3)

Combat Skill Levels +8 versus +3

Defense = 40r (50% damage reduction) versus 30r

Body = 30 versus 25

Attack = 10d6 RKA versus 8d6 RKA +1 stun multiplier

Alternate Attack = 10d6 Body drain from 100 point VPP

Alternate Attack = 10d6 entangle locking down tank

 

I estimate that 100 tanks could surround Dr. Destroyer and he would be frustrated with how long it takes to destroy them, but as they would only hit him on a natural 3 he would only take a couple points of damage in the end.

And how many points is Destroyer currently? I would imagine he isnquite comparable to the cost of statting up modern Hulk or Thor. Totally cool with all thhose guyss ripping throuh an Abrams.

 

Your 350 point starting Super, not so much.

[Scott Baker]

And how many points is Destroyer currently? I would imagine he isnquite comparable to the cost of statting up modern Hulk or Thor. Totally cool with all thhose guyss ripping throuh an Abrams.

 

Your 350 point starting Super, not so much.

This is answering the question asked about whether Dr. Destroyer could stand up to even one modern tank.

[Hugh Neilson]

While those tanks are surrounding the Good Doctor, I suspect that the aircraft dropping missiles with AoE Explosions on him would be problematic.

 

The SuperCobra carries anti-tank misiles that do 4d6 AP Explosion KA's - how are those going to penetrate the tank's defenses? They are less lethal than the Apache's chain fun (4 1/2d6 AP KA, +1 Stun Mult, Autofire). For that matter, why does so much of this hardware have increased Stun Multiples? Isn't it designed to penetrate armor, not bludgeon the target?

 

The tank has less rDef, as you note, but it cannot take Stun - Doc D can. Missiles (like those carried by aircraft) do explosive killing damage, and those dice get up there. A few infantry with LAW rockets (explosive AP killing attacks, 6 1/2d6) don't need to worry about DCV (just hit the hex), average 21 BOD and 63 STUN is putting 23 STUN past 40 hardened defenses (so 12 STUN to Doc D after damage reduction). I'm assuming Doc D has hardened defenses. If not, he's taking BOD from an average hit as well. How about those 8d6 K Explosive wire guided missiles? 28 double AP BOD and 84 average STUN (with its +1 multiple) seems like it will be pretty devastating to the Good Doctor - are his defenses double hardened? If not, that's 8 BOD and 32 STUN on an average hit. If they are, 22 STUN per hit is not insignificant - and a 4x stun multiple (1 in 3) with average BOD means 36 STUN if he's double hardened, 42 if not. A good roll may even mean he's stunned, in which case we have all those tank gunners (many, presumably, reserving for the right shot) targeting his halved DCV.

 

Now, of course, he can fly around, but even an 8 SPD can only take out so many soldiers per minute. Those missiles have massive range, and no range modifier, so they hit the hex on a 12- from quite a substantial distance away. The closer tanks will also take some damage, of course. Now, with 28 BOD - an average 11, that's 34 meters of Knockback - how muck KB res does Doc D have? He needs more than 42 meters on average if he's flying. Half DCV again.

 

Skimming through the book (pdf) looking for that, I note that rocket exhaust max'es out at an 8d6 Killing Heat Blast (although it also gets 18d6 normal physical damage). Not sold on the tank cannon being as devastating as rocket exhaust either (or the missile being quite a bit more lethal).

 

Unlike most, though, at least Doc D has a chance if the military isn't fully mobilized against him. Grond is crushed under the military's might.

[Hugh Neilson]

And how many points is Destroyer currently? I would imagine he isnquite comparable to the cost of statting up modern Hulk or Thor. Totally cool with all thhose guyss ripping throuh an Abrams.

 

Your 350 point starting Super, not so much.

Once again, back to "sorry, you can't play the characters from the source material - you need to earn a massive load of xp to play those guys". Hero is not, or should not be, the "1st level commoner struggles to become a 30th level Deity" game. Hulk was taking out military hardware with ease from his first appearance - he didn't need 10 years worth of weekly game sessions to build up enough xp. That's 52 weeks x 2 xp per session x 10 years = 1,040 xp + 450 = 1,490. How many points is Doc D built on? Am I close?

 

The Hulk got one solo movie, and was able to trash both a Helicarrier and alien combat machines far beyond Earth technology - the military was breaking out nukes in the hopes of defeating opposition while Thor (second movie), Hulk and Iron Man (third movie) were taking out the enemy tech pretty effectively. How did they get all that xp?

[Hugh Neilson]

The thread title is probably unfair though. Tanks are tough. The real question is "Are Hero Games Supers really that scrawny?"

[Ndreare]

I was only answering the question asked in as simple a format as reasonable.

 

I did not include, intelligence, the fact that destroyer is faster, has a sex of 30 making he goes first or his damage negation.

Yes destroyer is 3300 points, but close to half of those are not related to combat, and instead just expressions of his awesomeness.

 

**************

 

There was a official and licensed version of hulk published a while back in a document called Hulk Smash.

 

They listed hulk as 70 going up to 130 strength. He was not as powerful as Dr Destroyer, and would not have torn a modern MBT apart by mechanics alone. But he was pretty awesome for a 700 point character.

[Hugh Neilson]

I was only answering the question asked in as simple a format as reasonable.

 

I did not include, intelligence, the fact that destroyer is faster, has a Dex of 30 making he goes first or his damage negation.

Yes destroyer is 3300 points, but close to half of those are not related to combat, and instead just expressions of his awesomeness.

Shouldn't PC's also spend points on things not related to combat and be awesome as well?

 

There was a official and licensed version of hulk published a while back in a document called Hulk Smash.

 

They listed hulk as 70 going up to 130 strength. He was not as powerful as Dr Destroyer, and would not have torn a modern MBT apart by mechanics alone. But he was pretty awesome for a 700 point character.

So here we have even a (semi) official version of a character who rips tanks apart in the source material, but can't even scratch it from the front (and Hulk's not really the kind of character I envision carefully positioning his attacks to hit the weak points) based on Hero builds. I stand by my comments that the military gear builds are the problem. It should not require a character to have DC's well above "Very high-powered" or even "Cosmic" standards to reliably destroy, not just damage, conventional 21st century military hardware, nor to have defenses in the same range to weather attacks from conventional military technology.

 

Doc D is well beyond "Very High Powered" DC's, is in their CV and defense range (before considering his damage reduction), and is still at risk from a mobilized force using standard military hardware. How would a Cosmically Powerful character stand up to Cosmic technology? Or is the USS Enterprise or a Star Destroyer also inferior to an Abrams?

[massey]

What is really funny is that all these superheroes can't scratch an Abrams, but there's a guy at our local game store who was in the Army very briefly, and without even trying he managed to crash one so it didn't move no more.  That's why he is no longer in the Army.

[massey]

Destroyer versus M1A1 MBT

Speed = 8 versus 3

OCV = 10 versus 6

DCV = 8 versus 3 (strategically would use CSL to make it 14 versus 3)

Combat Skill Levels +8 versus +3

Defense = 40r (50% damage reduction) versus 30r

Body = 30 versus 25

Attack = 10d6 RKA versus 8d6 RKA +1 stun multiplier

Alternate Attack = 10d6 Body drain from 100 point VPP

Alternate Attack = 10d6 entangle locking down tank

 

I estimate that 100 tanks could surround Dr. Destroyer and he would be frustrated with how long it takes to destroy them, but as they would only hit him on a natural 3 he would only take a couple points of damage in the end.

 

Isn't that 8D6 RKA from the tank an Explosion?  Then they wouldn't worry about hitting Dr D's DCV.

 

Even if it isn't, it only takes one attack to knock him prone.  I'd do a move-through on him if I were driving the tank.  It's larger than a hex, so you're basically going to hit him automatically.  He doesn't have KB resistance so he'll be knocked prone.  Then the other tanks with held actions coordinate their attacks and open fire.  I estimate it would take no more than half a dozen tanks as written to beat Destroyer.

 

Is his VPP Cosmic?  Did he prep to bring out that 10D6 Body Drain?

 

Edit:  The Explosion is on the TOW Missile.  That's what I was thinking of.  Oh well, the Army has a lot of those as well.

 

Edit #2:  I'd direct everyone's attention to the Object Body Table, page 449 of 5th Edition revised rulebook.  A large bridge, as an unliving object, has 25 Body.

 

http://goldengatebridge.org/research/factsGGBDesign.php

 

The Golden Gate Bridge is substantially heavier than the example "large bridge".  With the doublings, at its most it should have 30 Body.  That shows how far off military equipment is.

[zslane]

I think Hugh nailed it on the head. The problem isn't necessarily one of "realism", but that in order for characters to damage modern military hardware (written up such that everything is energy-consistent), they have to be built on far more points than would be allowed in any campaign. Dr. Destroyer may have a KA capable of "Hulking" an Abrams, but are PCs going to be allowed to have that attack? I daresay not.

 

So, since we're not about to let PCs have attacks capable of tearing apart a Helicarrier like the Hulk or Thor can, what are we to do? Clearly we have to nerf the vehicles instead.

 

The whole point of this thread is to find ways to allow PCs to do what we see in the comics (and, I suppose, in the movies). I say that comic/movie writers are allowing superheroes to trash modern hardware with the same ease they did in the 1960s, which makes no sense given the steep performance increase of military hardware since then. Iron Man may have tech that keeps pace (notice the teeny little missile that insta-kills that tank in the first Iron Man movie), but Mjolnir is just a magic hammer, and it hasn't changed in millenia. The Hulk may earn XP, but there is nothing in-universe I know of to explain a steady increase in his base STR that matches the military technology improvement curve.

[massey]

I'd say most of the advances on the "military technology improvement curve" are illusory, as far as Hero stats go.

True, a modern tank will slaughter a 1970s tank, which will itself stomp a 1960s tank, which will beat a 1940s tank, etc. But... so what? In the real world, ANY damage that gets through a tank's armor basically destroys it. If a tank takes one Body, it usually goes boom, depending on where it hits. A big jump in power might just be the addition of an extra pip of RKA -- if it's enough to get through the armor, then it's great. The past 50 years of development might have added a grand total of +5 PD Armor and an extra D6+1 RKA.

[Hyper-Man]

I admit to a certain fondness for older tanks (and aircraft) in this kind of comparison, but it's kind of a cop out.

 

Thor can trash modern tanks because he should be able to trash them, It's part of the character. Likewise the Hulk.

 

Yeah!

Because obviously they can't make tanks out of the same material as the windows used here:

 

 

 

HM

[massey]

Yeah!

Because obviously they can't make tanks out of the same material as the windows used here:

 

 

 

 

To be fair, the windows were only supposed to hold long enough for a guy to push a button, dropping the container to the ground.

[Hyper-Man]

Maybe modern tank armor is built partly with Damage Negation and their weapons are built with the Reduced Negation Adder.

 

This is quite different than AP or Penetrating in that having Reduced Negation on an attack does nothing EXTRA to anything besides Damage Negation.

[Ndreare]

For the record a direct question was asked and ignored, then asked again. I answered the question based on the write up of Dr. Destroyer in Villains Volume 1 and the M1A1 presented on page 51 of The ultimate Vehicle. For my own games I use penetrating on supernatural strength.

 

Hough and massey, your responses seam pretty hostile but based on the information yes you can add other elements such as other weapons, but the question was asked about a specific vehicle as listed in the book. Moving the target does not help him get his answer. As such I will answer in a hostile manner my self

 

1: I was responding specifically about Dr. Destroyer versus an M1A1.

2: Doctor Destroyer would always go first and has enough movement and a 35 intelligence to determine who attacks and who has line of site.

3: Dr. D has a Con of 55 and 100 endurance so in the event 22 stun does get through to him, he is unlikely to do much more than get more pissed.

4: Dr. D also has the ability to add +4 more CSLs and increase his damage reduction to 75% for 12 seconds if wanted.

5: Dr. D could leave at any time.

6: Doctor Destroyers VPP skill is 30, his pool has no other relevant limitations so he can use any of his 5 extra actions more than the tank crews to change his VPP to something useful.

7. The only attack that stands a chance of hurting our villain is listed as follows. It IS NOT area of effect and would be required to roll to hit.

M256 120mm Smoothbore Cannon:

RKA 8d6, Indirect (can be arced over some

intervening obstacles; +¼), +1 Increased

STUN Multiplier (+¼), Increased Maximum

Range (2,000”; +¼), 55 Charges (+½); OIF

Bulky (-1), Real Weapon (-¼)

 

8: I did also point out that the Hulk could not perform as expected and in my own games we use a work around.

9: My view of the topic did not change with me answering the questions asked.

10: Moving the target by adding other vehicles and other weapons will not change the answer to the question asked which was to the effect of ‘could even Dr. Destroyed defeat a M1A1’.

11: There are many intangible benefits to being a super intelligent tactically minded and highly maneuverable being that would favor Dr. Destroyer if you were to play this out on the table.

12: Have a nice day.

[Hyper-Man]

In the first Hulk movie he did not actually defeat a tanks armor. He lifted the turret off, bent the barrel of the main gun and threw a tank a great distance. But he did NOT punch through the armor.

[massey]

In the fist Hulk movie he did not actually defeat a tanks armor. He lifted the turret off, bent the barrel of the main gun and threw a tank a great distance. But he did NOT punch through the armor.

 

How do you lift the turret off, or bend the main gun, in Hero rules, without overcoming its rPD?