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Alverant

How to build, EB with AE knockback

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I thought about giving this weapon to some mooks in my campaign. As a GM I could just list the mechanics without worrying about the details but I'd like to know the best way to build this.

 

What I want to do is have your standard EB with AE 1 Hex with knockback. The twist is every object in the hexes around the target hex also takes the same amount of knockback. Targets in those hexes won't take damage from the EB but they will be knocked back. How would I do this?

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Well there are a variety of ways, all of them either using linked or triggered (more expensive, unadvisable).

The way that springs to mind for me is a linked blast that deals no damage, perhaps with x2 knockback, in an AE.  You don't even need a lot of dice with the double knockback advantage.  So half the dice of your blast, plus the area effect and x2kb would give you a nice effect.

Another way is a linked telekinetic throw away from the center of the impact point in an AE, with limitations to make it only throw people, but that's kind of awkward and pointlessly complicated.

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I believe it's +1/4 to double the size of the AE.  So you've got AE: Hex (+1/2), Doubled area (+1/4).  That way it affects adjacent hexes.  Then put a limitation on that so that they don't take damage.  That's the easiest way.

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In 6th edition radius is +1/4 for 1-4m radius, then it increases a quarter for each 4m radius.  So it would be a 2m radius for +1/4 plus a linked blast of 4m radius that does no damage (also +1/4).

 

I am saying you don't link the blast.  You buy a bigger radius.  Put a limitation on the radius so that beyond a certain point, it only does KB.  There is no need to buy two blasts.

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2ndary Effect Radius: (Total: 26 Active Cost, 13 Real Cost) Naked Advantage: Area Of Effect (1m *(extended) Radius; +1/4) for up to 60 Active Points, Does Knockback (+1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2) (26 Active Points); Limited Power Extra Radius does no damage, only knockback (-1) (Real Cost: 13)
 

edit: Wait, I don't need the Knockback Advantage to be added to this if it's already on the original Power this is modifying...just by a Naked Advantage: Area of Effect (extended) and Limit it to do no damage....

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Radius

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The problem with the build is, at +1/4 to get the AE needed, any disadvantage would give you essentially an effect for free.

 

It's a -0 Disadvantage.

 

Just add +1/4 to the cost of the AE EB, and specify that anything outside the target hex takes only KB.

 

If the goal is to make all the little things in adjacent hexes do extra damage by being thrown around, instead just build an explosion.

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Stop trying to make this with Knockback. KB is an optional rule to move object when they take body damage. People always try to build wierd imbalanced move enemy abilities via Knockback.

 

If you want to move something, there are the basic Shove and Throw maneuvers. All you need is to use basic STR. Or Telekinesis in this case.

 

Of course I really have the question: What is the purpose of this effect?

You shoot it at somebody at his desk, and it makes a whole mess of papers/flexis that were stocked on his table while also killng him? That would just be a special effect. And a pretty pointless one at that.

To shoot it at tight formations of mooks to push them off thier feet? Well obviously the movement/shove/throw part is more important (as it affects a whole lot more targets), so what do you even need the single target damage for?

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The problem with the build is, at +1/4 to get the AE needed, any disadvantage would give you essentially an effect for free.

 

It's a -0 Disadvantage.

 

Just add +1/4 to the cost of the AE EB, and specify that anything outside the target hex takes only KB.

Let's assume that the damaging blast is 8d6 (40 AP) on which the desired damaging AoE is already added.

 

We now want to also hit adjacent hexes. OK, that's a bigger AoE, so +1/4 advantage, so 10 points. But those extra hexes only take Knockback, so let's call that a -2 limitation. Cost for the add-on is 10/3 = 3 points. If you measure KB only at -1 1/2, it costs 4 points. Only -1? 5 points.

 

It's a partially limited power. It looks complicated on the written power description, but it's not all that tough to build or play.

 

Two key objectives to me:

 

- this does more than the AoE already purchased to do damage and must therefore carry an added cost.

- this does less than increasing the AoE, and therefore must cost less than that.

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Let's assume that the damaging blast is 8d6 (40 AP) on which the desired damaging AoE is already added.

 

We now want to also hit adjacent hexes. OK, that's a bigger AoE, so +1/4 advantage, so 10 points. But those extra hexes only take Knockback, so let's call that a -2 limitation. Cost for the add-on is 10/3 = 3 points. If you measure KB only at -1 1/2, it costs 4 points. Only -1? 5 points.

 

It's a partially limited power. It looks complicated on the written power description, but it's not all that tough to build or play.

 

Two key objectives to me:

 

- this does more than the AoE already purchased to do damage and must therefore carry an added cost.

- this does less than increasing the AoE, and therefore must cost less than that.

 

 

OTOH, it's a great tool to use to strip the body shields off a villain without hurting the hostages, so makes the AOE effectively selective fire when used that way. If it's a slot in an Ultra power, I'd still say it's worth -0 to make it KB Only, as the utility balances the limitation.

 

If it's the only, or major attack power, sure, it's likely worth -2 on the advantage. And really, at 8D6, KB is a very unreliable tool.

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Stop trying to make this with Knockback. KB is an optional rule to move object when they take body damage. People always try to build wierd imbalanced move enemy abilities via Knockback.

 

 

Maybe because Knockback is a weird unbalanced move enemy ability?

 

More seriously though, it does sound like what's wanted might be really Flight, Usable as Attack.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I want a palindromedary right about here

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I think movement usable as an attack is significantly more abusive than knockback ;)

 

Right. Besides, it's more like Leaping, Usable As Attack.

 

Or possibly -5 STR Telekinesis.

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Martial Arts:

          Swat:  1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV,  STR Throw, +10 STR for Distance of Throw, Opponent Falls at Full Extra Strength Distance: 5 Points (considered 25 AP).

 

Add this with AoE TK as an attack linked to a specific Blast, and you wind up tossing people a few meters ...

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Martial Arts:

Swat: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, STR Throw, +10 STR for Distance of Throw, Opponent Falls at Full Extra Strength Distance: 5 Points (considered 25 AP).

 

Add this with AoE TK as an attack linked to a specific Blast, and you wind up tossing people a few meters ...

While many GMs allow Martial Arts with TK, not all do and many that do require the TK to have Fine Manipulation. It's an interesting approach though.

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Area Effect, Explosion, define the Explosion as meaning not lesser damage outside the central Radius, but no damage with full knockback.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys Healing, Area Effect, Does Knockback

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Area Effect, Explosion, define the Explosion as meaning not lesser damage outside the central Radius, but no damage with full knockback.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys Healing, Area Effect, Does Knockback

 

25 Be HEALED!!!: Healing BODY 3d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (16m Cone; +1/2), Thin Cone (-1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) (75 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) - END=7

 

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Stop trying to make this with Knockback. KB is an optional rule to move object when they take body damage. 

 

It strikes me as strange that you want to stop people making knockback powers by engaging knockback.  The idea is that the power will generate knockback so I am presuming that the GM has agreed that it will be part of the game.  As such it has to be open to the same kind of manipulation as other parts of the game.

 

No point in telling people that they are having BadWrongFun.

 

Personally I think Hugh's proposal nails it.  Work out how much it would cost to extend damage AND knockback to the surrounding hexes and then limit that cost by an agreed limitation of what "only for knockback" would cost.  

There are other proposals but they are all a lot of added bureaucracy (and would be subject to different defences etc to knockback).  

 

Doc

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