How To Build: Trip Wire

[massey]

This argument is is illogical and surprising coming from you Massey. First comparing tripwires to Superman is well riduclous. Superman is awefully powerful because he spent the points to be powerful however that in of itself doesn't negate how useful tripwire could be versus other characters, Viper agents anyone? In theory the tripwire could be effective to Batman, Robin, Joker, Harleyquin and Cheetah to name a few.

 

Is the player going to use it once? Well the argument can be made to make it zero points. Me playing my ninja? Well I would use it enough that it would warrent paying points. P.s. I disliked the TK verison because that was too many points for what you got and I could not fit in a multipower.

 

Well, here's my reasoning.

 

What is our tripwire going to do?  Is it going to detonate a bomb?  If so, it's simply the Trigger advantage for an attack.  Does it just trip somebody and they fall down?  If that's the case, it's just a minor terrain hazard.

 

Now you could build that with Change Environment.  Require them to pass a Dex check or fall down.  Of course, with a simple Change Environment, you can fire that off and set up tripwires over every inch of terrain with a single action.  That might be worth some points.  But a normal, doesn't make anything blow up tripwire?  That's just the environment.  It's free, like pushing a desk in front of a door to make it harder to open.

 

You don't have to pay points for the environment.  Everyone gets that for free.  If I want to hold a guy under the water, that's free.  I can make him drown, spending no points.  Now it'll take a while, several minutes probably.  And in a gunfight, that's not a great idea.  But I can use the basic drowning rules against him, as long as there's water nearby and I can hold his head under it.  What do I get if I spend points?  I get a reliable water source.  I get to set the amount of damage I do.  I get to determine how easy it is to hold him under, things like that.

 

3D6 NND,(LS: Breathing)

must follow grab

 

With this build, I can grab someone and then immediately start inflicting drowning damage.  It doesn't matter if I'm in the middle of the desert, I just grab them, turn around, and there's some water right there for me to stick his head under.  It doesn't matter if he has 100 Endurance, he starts taking Stun right away, on my action.  If I want to do something similar for free, there's gotta be naturally occurring water, and I have to use the drowning rules.  It takes longer and isn't as point-and-click as the points-paid power, but it still works.

 

A tripwire is the same.  I conceal something in the path, and if the guy doesn't see it, he has a chance of falling down.  It won't affect a guy with a 50 Str, because he just snaps the wire.  It has all these real world limitations that affect it, because it's not something I spend points on.

[Manic Typist]

Ok, so it's equipment with the Real Equipment limitation.

[bigbywolfe]

Well, here's my reasoning.

 

What is our tripwire going to do?  Is it going to detonate a bomb?  If so, it's simply the Trigger advantage for an attack.  Does it just trip somebody and they fall down?  If that's the case, it's just a minor terrain hazard.

My one question is, how often do you have people make checks to see if they just happen to fall on random "minor terrain hazard"? 

 

In my experience virtually never.  I'm not sure if I've ever had a GM make us do that. 

Most of the rules regarding terrain in Hero are under Environmental Conditions and even ones like Poor Footing, Narrow Surfaces, or Cluttered and Cramped Conditions don't ever actually make you trip/fall.  In the Environmental Effects chapter Rain/Snow and Undergrowth likewise do not include a chance to fall. 

 

So saying it shouldn't be built as a Power, just treated like this other situation that virtually never happens (in my experience) and that there aren't (to my knowledge) set rules for, isn't particularly helpful. 

Like Hyper-Man said:

 

How much a thing COSTS does not matter in a Heroic Game.

 

How a thing WORKS (ie; the 'defense' against that thing) matters regardless of whether it's a Heroic or Superheroic Game.

 

[massey]

My one question is, how often do you have people make checks to see if they just happen to fall on random "minor terrain hazard"? 

 

In my experience virtually never.  I'm not sure if I've ever had a GM make us do that. 

Most of the rules regarding terrain in Hero are under Environmental Conditions and even ones like Poor Footing, Narrow Surfaces, or Cluttered and Cramped Conditions don't ever actually make you trip/fall.  In the Environmental Effects chapter Rain/Snow and Undergrowth likewise do not include a chance to fall. 

 

So saying it shouldn't be built as a Power, just treated like this other situation that virtually never happens (in my experience) and that there aren't (to my knowledge) set rules for, isn't particularly helpful. 

Like Hyper-Man said:

 

Never in superheroic games.  I've been in D&D games where we had to make Dex checks to not fall.

 

All a tripwire is, is something to catch your foot.  That's it.  It's not impressive, it's not really even dangerous unless there's some additional trap attached to it.  It's just a wire that you didn't see and it made you fall down.  It isn't worth purchasing as equipment or points.

 

Again, how do you build a chair?

[Ninja-Bear]

Massey you still use the security system to build the tripwire. And concealment would hide it. Ps why would 50 str automatically snap a wire? The are some really strong materials out there. If a character doesn't perceive it (hopefully) then I would have the character check at casual strength. And tripwires to set up are harder than they look to build.

[TheDarkness]

Sweep seems a more apt manuever to describe it than a throw.

 

As far as why, trip wires not only may be attached to traps, but can be placed in front of pits or ledges. At it's weakest, a tripwire in a narrow hall that the first goon falls from means the goons behind him are in a rough spot.

[Hyper-Man]

At its core a Tripwire is just a Trip maneuver with a Trigger.

*Note that Trip and Martial Trip are just special forms of Throw which is limited by the weight/mass of the target.

 

I would say Security Systems would be the primary Skill with Concealment, Mechanics and Homemade Weapons as the most likely complimentary skills.  How much the Skill roll is made by would determines how well it works (The OCV of the Trip attack.  How well it's concealed.  How much weight can it affect).

 

How strong the victim is has no bearing just as with a Throw/Martial Throw.  How massive/heavy they are DOES matter as that will interact with how strong of a material the Tripwire is made of plus how well it is secured to its anchor points.

[TheDarkness]

At its core a Tripwire is just a Trip maneuver with a Trigger.

*Note that Trip and Martial Trip are just special forms of Throw which is limited by the weight/mass of the target.

Ah, didn't realize that!

[dmjalund]

isn't Trip Wire, Barb Wire's brother?

[Ninja-Bear]

isn't Trip Wire, Barb Wire's brother?

I thought he was her first cousin?

[kukuli]

At its core a Tripwire is just a Trip maneuver with a Trigger.

*Note that Trip and Martial Trip are just special forms of Throw which is limited by the weight/mass of the target.

 

 

That makes sense. St+(v/5) means a "normal" trip wire with no extra strength built in would do 1d6 damage to a normal person moving at noncombat speed.  No body would get through and very few stun, if any.  Of course, a super moving at combat speed into a specially designed trap would be another story.  Good call.

[Beowulf]

In a heroic game you don't pay for equipment.  So it doesn't matter exactly how it's built.  Do you build a chair with 0 End Telekinesis, only to keep a person's butt off the ground?  Or is it just a chair?

That works for chairs and tables but I am having a harder time with doors. Thinking of an independent OIF forcewall.

 

Also, I am trying to build a car points wise, and am having some trouble with the cylinders. They are 2rPD but crits keep damaging them. How should I model lower octane fuel?

 

Actually, I find the tripwire question kind of interesting. A gadgeteer in a supers game should be able to have an effective version of this in his toolkit, and I'd go for an entangle to represent it.

 

If it was a heroic or normal game I'd skip modeling it and just let it exist, as you suggest.

[Beowulf]

Nope got it. Triggered dex drain. Special effect, tripping.

[TheDarkness]

I love that there are twenty ways to build the same effect.

 

Teleport, target must be moving, moves through intervening space, with the limitation that Rambo always sees it.

[TheDarkness]

Actually, I missed this before. I'm confused on, if it's set up as a trip manuever, what OCV would be used?

[Christopher R Taylor]

With traps of this sort, I assign an OCV based on the concealment, placement, type, etc.  Basically: how likely do you want the trap to succeed?  If someone doesn't spot it, they're 0 DCV, so a 3 will usually be enough to hit most of the time (14- chance)

[TheDarkness]

Am I correct, if one wanted to do a build of it, one could just make it a focus, buy the three ocv for the focus, and that would be good?

[Beowulf]

Actually, I missed this before. I'm confused on, if it's set up as a trip manuever, what OCV would be used?

I don't like this as a trip manuver unless the character is activly throwing a stick or wire to trip the person. This is static and left behind, so a manuver doesn't fit.

 

This is clearly a triggered OAF. The game mechanic is the other person is prone and needs time to get up if they hit the trigger, and if they fall. I am swinging back to calling this an entangle. Literally that is what it does, it entangles the feet for an instant only and can be broken casually if you are strong enough. Entangle is perfect, the size of the entangle reflects the strength of the string.

[IndianaJoe3]

Change Environment is definitely my choice. It's a simple build and you don't need to worry about attack rolls. If the target make their DEX (or Perception, if applicable) roll, either they avoided the wire or just plain missed it. If they blow their roll, then they fall and maybe take some damage.

[massey]

Trip maneuver doesn't work for me. It means that you can trip a guy who has a 90 Str no problem, but be unable to trip a really fat clumsy guy (if you can't lift him, you can't trip him).

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd just got with a triggered 1-phase entangle myself.  No throw, just grabs someone and if they are powerful enough they just rip through, but otherwise are 1/2 DCV and immobile, which the special effect of "prone"

[Ninja-Bear]

Massey again about the 90 STR and breaking a trip wire. It depends on the material strength. If Spider mam makes a trip wire out of his webbing wouldn't that be strong enough to not break from 90 STR? However if you had a realistic wire then throw on a custom -0 doesn't work past x str.

 

Better yet if the focus has real world limitation then as a GM, I would the 90 STR just to bust through it.

[Hyper-Man]

Trip maneuver doesn't work for me. It means that you can trip a guy who has a 90 Str no problem, but be unable to trip a really fat clumsy guy (if you can't lift him, you can't trip him).

 

Being 'fat' is not enough.  The target would have to be truly massive/dense to make a difference. 

 

A tripwire could potentially even work against a character riding a bicycle and NOT affect another character riding a motorcycle (because of too much combined mass).

 

From 6e2 page 81

A character cannot Throw an object or character that weighs more than he could lift with his Pushed STR. When using a Throw, a character must use a minimum of enough STR to lift the Thrown object/character, but he doesn’t have to use his full STR if he doesn’t want to. Furthermore, he may, with the GM’s permission, use his STR only to “lift,” not to cause damage (though he still has to pay END for the STR when doing this, of course). A character cannot resist being Thrown with STR.

 

 

From 6e2 page 83

RESISTING THROWS

 

Thrown characters have several ways to resist being Thrown, or to minimize the effects of a Throw.

 

Acrobatics

A character may attempt to resist being Thrown if he has the Acrobatics Skill. He can keep his feet (or land on them) if he succeeds with an Acrobatics roll at -3. However, this doesn’t prevent him from taking damage from the Throw.

 

Breakfall

A Thrown character may reduce the damage taken from a Throw by half if he makes a Breakfall roll at -1 for every 2d6 of damage done by the Throw. (He can also use Breakfall to stand up without taking a Half Phase, but that requires a separate roll.) If the Breakfall roll fails, the character takes full damage from the Throw.

 

At at the GM’s option, if the character’s Breakfall roll succeeds by half, the Thrower does not get the standard benefit of being able to attack first if they share their next Phase.

 

Powers

Many Powers enable a character to resist Throws in some way.

 

Clinging: Before a character can Throw a target who’s using Clinging to stick to something, he first has to overcome the Clinging’s STR (see 6E1 182) to “detach” the target.

 

Density Increase And Growth: The rules about STR and Throws, above, apply to characters using these Powers, as well as to permanently-heavy targets (such as characters who’ve bought a Large Size Template or a Mass Template; see 6E1 442).

 

[Hyper-Man]

13 Tripwire: Telekinesis (20 STR), Fine Manipulation, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; +1/4), Area Of Effect (2m Surface; +1/4) (60 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 10 Active Points modifier; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), Limited Power Only To Trip Target (-1), No Range (-1/2), IAF (Tripwire; -1/2), Instant (-1/2) - END=6

 

 

From 6e2 page 71
 

COMMON MOVE BY/THROUGH RULES

Several rules apply to both Move By and Move Through.

Relative Velocity
Since the damage from a Move By or Move Through depends on velocity, it’s the characters’ relative velocity that matters when determining it. (Determine the OCV penalty the character performing the Move By/Through suffers from just his own velocity, however.)

“Relative” velocity refers to the relationship between the velocities of the attacker and his target — sometimes they add together, sometimes they cancel each other out. For example, if two attackers rush together at 16m each, their relative velocity is 32m; the Move Through gets +5d6 damage. If one runs toward the other at 12m while the other is standing still (0m movement, in other words), the relative velocity is 12m and the Move Through gets +2d6 damage.

If the attacker runs at 20m, and the victim runs away from him at 8m, the relative velocity is 12m and the Move Through gets +2d6 damage. If a character’s attacked with a velocity-based Maneuver in a Segment in which he doesn’t have a Phase but the GM judges that he is “moving” (e.g., he’s in mid-air or mid-run in a situation when he moved last Phase and is obviously going to keep moving in his next Phase), the GM can assign him whatever velocity seems appropriate. As always, apply common sense and dramatic sense.

These rules also apply to Trip, Martial Throw, and other Maneuvers that add damage based on velocity.

 

[massey]

Being 'fat' is not enough.  The target would have to be truly massive/dense to make a difference. 

 

A tripwire could potentially even work against a character riding a bicycle and NOT affect another character riding a motorcycle (because of too much combined mass).

 

 

Being fat could easily be enough.  With a martial throw it depends on the strength of the guy making the trap.  If a 5 Str boyscout sets the tripwire, it won't work on half my gaming group.  But it'll work on Wonder Woman.