Selling off MCVs

[Tasha]

We always solved that with 10pt skill levels with a [-1] limitation (only for OCV or only for DCV).  Not a PITA, at all ... and interestingly it works out to the same cost as the 6th Edition OCV/DCV costs.  Likewise, DEX could be purchased with a limitation that it didn't affect figured characteristics or CV (i.e. only for determining initiative [-1]).

 

Was that really so difficult that it warranted adding new characteristics and inflating character costs?  I don't think so... but I can see new players getting value out of it since it's more intuitive.

 

Oh, wait, new players can't buy new, hardbound copies of 6th Edition... they have to struggle to find this place and buy a PDF -- and hope it's the right one (god forbid they buy a 'Complete' version that isn't cross-referenced, here, when rules questions are asked). So I guess DEX/OCV/DCV/SPD decoupling changes weren't done with making things easy for new for players... since, you know, getting the 6th Edition 2-volume set of rules that might make things easier for them ... is hard (if not outright impossible in the case of hardcopy) for newcomers.

 

Again they can buy Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete which IS 6e and available in most FLGS or here on the Hero Games webstore.

[massey]

There's no point in rehashing the arguments of figured characteristics.  Nobody is going to change their mind one way or the other.

[Surrealone]

Again they can buy Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete which IS 6e and available in most FLGS or here on the Hero Games webstore.

 

And who is answering rules questions with references to those?  Oh, right, no one... (i.e. They're unsupported.)

[Greywind]

Both of which are derivative of the 6E books. And Steve does answer questions.

[Tasha]

And who is answering rules questions with references to those?  Oh, right, no one... (i.e. They're unsupported.)

 

Both of which are derivative of the 6E books. And Steve does answer questions.

 

If Steve cannot answer the veterans of this board are very willing to help any new person who comes along. We have one of the most helpful communities I know of.

[Surrealone]

If Steve cannot answer the veterans of this board are very willing to help any new person who comes along. We have one of the most helpful communities I know of.

That's not what I would call 'official support' for the 'Complete' texts that are available, today.  This plays right into another thread, so this is the last I'll say on the matter, as I think everyone here knows and cannot properly deny the fact that what's sold in the form of the 'Complete' books has no official support using responses rendered with page references to the 'Complete' books.  i.e. Referencing out-of print books is non-helpful to newcomers who can't get those books easily. (PDF's are not books, as we know... )

[ghost-angel]

Oh, wait, new players can't buy new, hardbound copies of 6th Edition... they have to struggle to find this place and buy a PDF -- and hope it's the right one (god forbid they buy a 'Complete' version that isn't cross-referenced, here, when rules questions are asked). So I guess DEX/OCV/DCV/SPD decoupling changes weren't done with making things easy for new for players... since, you know, getting the 6th Edition 2-volume set of rules that might make things easier for them ... is hard (if not outright impossible in the case of hardcopy) for newcomers.

 

This paragraph makes no sense at all since

 

1) The Complete books ARE sixth edition Hero System

 

2) Why would new players even care that there used to be derived stats & point totals are higher than previous editions? All new players know is that DEX, OCV, DCV, and SPD are 4 Characteristics defining 4 different aspects of their characters.

 

 Both the 6E PDFs and the Complete Books have the same rules for those 4 Characteristics, to new players it's a wash.

 

So yeah - they were done to make things easier for new players, especially since at the time they were done, 6E was still very much in print, since, you know, that was the edition that introduced the change. "Here new player, in this game you can decide how nimble you are, how good you are with hitting things, how good you are at dodging them, and how many times you go in a Combat Turn" - yeah, we totally did that to make things hard for people.

[Surrealone]

Yet another waving away of the fact that only an out-of-print set of books that TODAY'S newcomers can't get their hands on are officially supported with authoritative responses making references to pages within them... and that the Complete books have no official support with authoritative rule clarification responses that refer to THEIR page numbers.  No wonder it'll never change -- people are too busy making excuses for the status quo as if it's fine.

 

If 6e I & II were still in print I would agree that the 6e changes were done to make things easier for newcomers.  But when you combine those changes with today's reality that the only officially and authoritatively supported copy of the 6e I & II rules are out of print and, thus, difficult to obtain ... 6e changes done to make things easier for newcomers essentially evaporate or are canceled out -- at least when talking about materials that receive authoritative support.

 

As to why newcomers would care about inflated point totals?  Well, they probably wouldn't; instead, their GM would, since point total inflation makes re-use of old characters, objects, etc. (or pre-builts from older versions of the rules) a PILE of work due to the need to update them before using them.  (If characteristics hadn't changed ... or had changed in such a way as to maintain point total equivalency between versions, then only specific powers would have needed to be updated...) This is worth considering in that the GM is likely to be an old timer ... with new players or people new to Hero System.

 

But we're off topic from MCV sellbacks and I apologize for the digression.

[Mister E]

OMCV can be an "All Or Nothing" NND (Defense is having some [at least 1] OMCV) for 1/2 less Advantage/more Limitation.

 

NNDs are usually Rare. However since most living beings have OMCV it may be a Very Common defense in the same category of frequency as PD & ED for AVADs.

 

Detonate Null-Yang Brain Case: Blast 6d6, Does BODY (+1)(60 active pts); NND (having at least 1 OMCV, Very Common; -1/2). Total cost: 40 pts.

 

"Being all yin & no yang is a ticking time bomb. The latent energy inside inanimate objects can be harnessed, focused & released violently. Does not work on targets w/ aggressive minds."

[CptPatriot]

Just imagine the levels of superdickery if the GM used that as a megascale attack to use against the city, knowing that a player would have that limitation.

[Mister E]

[CptPatriot]

Ok, does this mean the thread has jumped the shark already and needs to be closed???

[massey]

Dude you just don't give up on locking threads do you?

[Surrealone]

From my perspective, the only real problem we seem to have had in the thread seems to have been handled some days ago.

[Lucius]

Ok, does this mean the thread has jumped the shark already and needs to be closed???

 

About a month ago, I'd say. 

 

An observation, and a suggestion:

 

It seems to me that everything worth saying (and more) has been said on the issue, and that no one's opinions are budging.

 

Would it be too much to ask that we agree to disagree, refrain from throwing around accusations of "munchkin" and the like, and let the matter rest?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or, you know, you can keep beating a dead palindromedary if you really want to, but what's the fun in that?

Lucius Alexander

 

This just in from Palindromedary News: Scotland appears to be suffering a severe drought....

[Ninja-Bear]

Maybe we jumped the shark twice?

[Hugh Neilson]

I think Surrealone's point is being lost in the shuffle or assumed away.

 

As I understand matters at Hero, Champions Complete and FH Complete represent the current, in print, official rules for the Hero System 6e. The 2 volume Hero System rules are not intended to be reprinted.

 

However, the Rule Questions Board continues to refer to only the 6e 2 volume rules - no page references for a new player who purchased, to beat the point to death, the CURRENT OFFICIAL RULES for Hero System.

 

When 5er came out, 5er was the reference for the Rules Boards. Not long after 6e came out, questions on 5e were no longer answered on the Rule Boards. So why has Hero not transitioned the Rules Question Board to the current version of the rules, or at least incorporated the Complete books along with the 2 volume set?

 

To me, this is a significant failure in marketing the system to new players. I say that as someone who refers to 6er, not the Complete books, and has played since 1e.

[Manic Typist]

His point is valid- it does represent a real barrier to "new players" who have the Complete rules (which are Complete- for the genres they intend to emulate) who want guidance. Ideally, Steve would answer questions either using the Complete rules ("What you're looking for is on p.73 of your book) or, should the question deal with something that is beyond the scope of the particular genre the player purchased, then a reference to the core books would be appropriate.

[dmjalund]

We may need Champions Companion book/books to help with details that the 'Complete' books decided to gloss over

[Greywind]

His point is valid- it does represent a real barrier to "new players" who have the Complete rules (which are Complete- for the genres they intend to emulate) who want guidance. Ideally, Steve would answer questions either using the Complete rules ("What you're looking for is on p.73 of your book) or, should the question deal with something that is beyond the scope of the particular genre the player purchased, then a reference to the core books would be appropriate.

 

It is entirely possible that Steve doesn't have the files/books of the Complete.

[CptPatriot]

Dude you just don't give up on locking threads do you?

 

When threads get hostile and go off point, like this one did, I will rather have a thread locked than this forum be associated as a place not welcoming to discussion and approachable to new players.

[Tasha]

His point is valid- it does represent a real barrier to "new players" who have the Complete rules (which are Complete- for the genres they intend to emulate) who want guidance. Ideally, Steve would answer questions either using the Complete rules ("What you're looking for is on p.73 of your book) or, should the question deal with something that is beyond the scope of the particular genre the player purchased, then a reference to the core books would be appropriate.

 

I think it comes down to the fact that Steve didn't write either Complete editions. He doesn't want to answer questions about that edition. He sees 6e1&2 as the REAL 6e. I am sure that there's some hurt feelings there. I don't think that Jason can compel Steve to answer questions about the Complete editions. Perhaps he could get someone else to weigh in or he could shut down the Question thread all together. Many game companies don't have someone besides fans on hand to have questions answered officially. 

[Surrealone]

I think it comes down to the fact that Steve didn't write either Complete editions. He doesn't want to answer questions about that edition. He sees 6e1&2 as the REAL 6e. I am sure that there's some hurt feelings there. I don't think that Jason can compel Steve to answer questions about the Complete editions. Perhaps he could get someone else to weigh in or he could shut down the Question thread all together. Many game companies don't have someone besides fans on hand to have questions answered officially. 

And exactly why aren't the authors of the Complete books supporting them like Steve supports 6e1&2?  And if 6e1&2 are the 'real' 6e, then why are they out of print?

 

Also worth noting -- many game companies don't have an operating system-like approach that requires official answers to ensure the operating system is being used as intended.... making your statement a rather disingenuous one, as you're comparing apples and oranges when you compare things like support for WoD to support for Hero System, for example.

 

Surreal

 

P.S. Did you mean to imply that hurt feelings and/or an internal pissing match may have something to do with why only out of print books receive official support ... and why in-print Complete books don't?  It sure sounded like it ... and if so, well, I'd think solving THAT kind of internal problem might go a long way to improving external support and perception.  Ya' think?

[Tasha]

And exactly why aren't the authors of the Complete books supporting them like Steve supports 6e1&2?  And if 6e1&2 are the 'real' 6e, then why are they out of print?

 

Also worth noting -- many game companies don't have an operating system-like approach that requires official answers to ensure the operating system is being used as intended.... making your statement a rather disingenuous one, as you're comparing apples and oranges when you compare things like support for WoD to support for Hero System, for example.

 

Surreal

 

P.S. Did you mean to imply that hurt feelings and/or an internal pissing match may have something to do with why only out of print books receive official support ... and why in-print Complete books don't?  It sure sounded like it ... and if so, well, I'd think solving THAT kind of internal problem might go a long way to improving external support and perception.  Ya' think?

I didn't compare WoD to Hero. I compared Savage Worlds to Hero. GURPS would be similar. BTW Paizo and WotC (Pathfinder and Wizards of the Coast) don't give this level of support. Those systems are even more complicated than Hero is. With the hundreds of Feats, Combat maneuvers and other things scattered over 30+ books.

 

AFAIK Hero isn't paying anyone to answer questions about the game. Steve does it because he loves the system and edition he wrote. You can complain about support here in the regular part of the board all you want. This ISN'T the place to complain about it. The Company board is the place to do it. To do it so vehemently and so often just comes off as being a jerk IMHO. We are fans just as much as you are. We buy the game and play it. You don't have to beat us over the head with something that none of us can change. If there's some sort of internal issue, again there's nothing we can do about it. We can't fix it. 

 

I don't think it's as much of a problem as you seem to think it is. Most questions are along the lines of "how do you build this" which get transferred to this board. What support Steve does give works fine, and is way more than other companies do.

[Ninja-Bear]

Fwiw one time I asked Steve Long a question about hand attack in 6th basic. He pointed me to the full 6th volumes. He also gave me a workabke answer for basic.