Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Vondy]

All of this discussion is interesting, but continues to ignore the elephant in the room: that the Hero System is no longer in the hands of an active publisher with the resources or the drive/vision to lead the system and the brand into a healthy, vibrant future. Instead, it has essentially been put into the ad hoc custodianship of its users. All forthcoming "product" is now the sole responsibility of fans who have the time and energy to write something long enough to be called a supplement.

 

If the goal is to just talk whimsically about an alternate Earth where revamping the system and its presentation for newbies would have a meaningful impact all by itself, then this discussion is exactly what it needs to be. On the other hand, if its goal is to spark effective positive change for the game's future, then y'all need to start formulating a plan for turning Hero Games into a real publishing company again. Because from what I can tell, nobody is more interested/invested in the game's future right now than all of us, its hardcore fans.

 

All right. You want brass tacks? I'll give them to you.

 

Hero is in limbo. It has infrequent kickstarters and limited third party support. That's it.

 

Here is what it will take to revivify the system: money.

 

Not just a little bit of money. A significant investment in a well-considered marketing and product plan.

 

Without that money, there is nothing to discuss.

 

Bottom line: We aren't doing or saying anything that will change anything. Why is that? 

 

Because we aren't calling DOJ and saying, "I have money and a plan!"

 

Plans without money go nowhere.

 

If you...

1. Have an idea for an official Hero book that will sell
2. Are willing to underwrite or help underwrite the writing, layout, art, and printing. And,
3. Are willing to share the profits 

Please do call them.

 

But, short of that, what do you expect from any of us?

 

We're fans.

 

We're customers.

 

We aren't owners.

[zslane]

Well, if we examine the title of this thread, and the similar threads on other forums, there seems to be little understanding (or acknowledgment) that the real problem is precisely what you (and I) have described. And that everything else (like failures of presentation) is rather besides the point.

 

I am not expecting anything useful to get "done", as much as I am simply hoping to see a dawn of realization spread far and wide, and an open acknowledgement that there is no mystery as to what the state of the system is or the (nearly non-existant) prospects for its future growth (and why that is so).

[Vondy]

Well, if we examine the title of this thread, and the similar threads on other forums, there seems to be little understanding (or acknowledgment) that the real problem is precisely what you (and I) have described. And that everything else (like failures of presentation) is rather besides the point.

 

I am not expecting anything useful to get "done", as much as I am simply hoping to see a dawn of realization spread far and wide, and an open acknowledgement that there is no mystery as to what the state of the system is or the (nearly non-existant) prospects for its future growth (and why that is so).

 

Fair enough!

 

And, for the record, I do have ideas for shorter products that I would be inspired to write.

 

I would also pay for the art.

 

But, that leaves editing, formatting, and printing. 

 

And rights and profit sharing agreements to hammer out.

 

And that's a lot.

 

How much would it cost to bring a 128 page 6x9 glossy book to print?

 

I don't know.

[bigdamnhero]

Ho-lee ****: strawman much? What did I say that was equivalent to "rape ain't that bad"? All I did was point out an oft-unchallenged double-standard when it comes to stereotypes. If it dealt with women, an ethnic minority, an alternate sexuality, certain political affiliations, certain religions, etc, this wouldn't even be a discussion (and rightly so, because it isn't right), but apparently men get the short end of the stick when it comes to declarations made during RPG discussions and that's okay.

 

At least the Hero Games forum is better about this particular double-standard compared to rpg.net's forums. Talk about a hotbed of oversensitive rat-on-your-neighbor paranoia that would make the Stasi blush.

My apologies! That part of my reply was aimed at the "rules rapist" phrase that keeps getting brought up by people-not-Ragitsu. But since it followed your quote, I can see where you might think it was directed at you. That was not my intent.

 

To your other point: saying there is a significant difference between how men and women view this specific issue is not stereotyping - it's pointing out an actual, quantifiable difference that is directly relevant to the discussion at hand. (I don't read rpgnet, so I can't comment on what goes on over there.)

[bigdamnhero]

So, am I right if I demand that people refrain from speaking about or in favour of these few examples of what I consider to be offended by (trust me, I have many, many more)?

Show me where anyone in this thread "demanded" you do or don't do anything? All that has been done has been to point out that some terms being used are more offensive than some people seem to think they are and that maybe we shouldn't use them anymore.

 

In the second you might be mistake or wrong, in the first your civility is lacking.

...which is exactly what I've been saying.

 

Still, being a dick is not a crime.

Never said it is; pointing out dickish behavior is not a call for criminalizing said behavior. Your persecution complex is showing.

[Tasha]

Fair enough!

 

And, for the record, I do have ideas for shorter products that I would be inspired to write.

 

I would also pay for the art.

 

But, that leaves editing, formatting, and printing. 

 

And rights and profit sharing agreements to hammer out.

 

And that's a lot.

 

How much would it cost to bring a 128 page 6x9 glossy book to print?

 

I don't know.

 

Talk to DriveThru RPG or even Jason. They at least know how much Print on Demand books cost. Which seems to be the way that many smaller companies are going. 

[bigdamnhero]

You don't see Arabs often as bad guys any longer...

Good one. 

 

...Wait, you were serious about that?

 

Tho you're not wrong about the stereotypical German accent being used as a shorthand for evil. One friend refers to it as "Speaking Nazi - it's kinda like German only angrier."

[massey]

The problem with requiring political correctness in fiction is that that often goes against the needs of the story.

 

Gypsies are traditional fixtures in Universal horror films.  I don't care if it's an accurate portrayal of a real culture.  It's a part of the standard Dracula imagery.  If I'm writing Horror Hero: Transylvania, then I'm more concerned with getting the movie references right than I am with not offending a tiny culture on another continent, especially one that probably won't be buying my book anyway.

 

It's okay for an Eskimo to just be a stereotypical cartoon Eskimo who lives in a cartoon igloo.  I don't have to say he's an "Inuit" or try to get his culture right.  Because it doesn't matter.  Especially when I am trying to emulate a certain genre.  I'm not necessarily going for reality.  I may just be using a stock background character.

[phoenix240]

Maybe someone should start a NGD thread about this stuff or a few since there's a few topics being hashed out here. 

[bigdamnhero]

We are talking about a 30+ year old reference in an out of print gaming book that was wholly metaphorical and had zero to do with actual rape.

...

I am not, however, open to prima facie assassinating a dead man's character for words written decades ago.

Then you misunderstand me - I'm not criticizing Aaron or calling him a racist, nor so I think anyone here is. What I'm saying (and what I'm hearing others say) is that we probably shouldn't use that term anymore today. It's like cringing at some of the gay stereotypes in Blazing Saddles; it doesn't mean Mel Brooks was a homophobe, it means "Wow, some of those jokes have not aged well." Ditto for depictions of domestic abuse in old sitcoms. ("One of these days Alice...") Or racial stereotypes in Amos & Andy. Etc, etc. It's not about whether or not the people who used them in their time & place were good or bad people; it's about whether or not they're appropriate to use in our time and our place.

 

Was it "ban-worthy?" [shrug] I can't speak for rpgnet (which I don't read). But given the overall level of vitriol online, I have no problem with people trying to maintain some level of civil discourse even if I may occasionally disagree with their call. What I don't get is why some people choose to use words/phrases that they know are offensive, and then act surprised when people get offended.

 

As for the people who said those things about you & your family: you were well within your rights to not to report them. But you would have equally been within your right to report them. They have every legal right to say that shit, but I have no desire to hang out with them and Hero has every right to not want them stinking up their house. The fact that they're no longer here I assume means they eventually did get banned after someone else reported them. That's how civility works; if someone is a jerk, I have every right to either leave, to kick them out (if it's my place) or to ask the host to do so (if it's someone else's place).

 

Does I will do my best to be considerate, to be decent, and to consider my audience. I think we should all aspire to that.

Sound great. So I'm not sure why you're so defensive when someone points out ways people could maybe be better at that?

 

My issue is not whether the term "rules rapist" is offensive. It is offensive. Rather, it is with the proportion of expressed outrage to the offense in question.

...

We should not use the term "rules rapist," but the fact that its derailed this thread and arguing like titans over it is a pretty good sign people are overreacting to start with.

A couple people posted that the term was offensive and we really shouldn't use it any longer. Cue multiple outraged posts about political correctness, censorship, and the Poor Persecuted White Dude. I'm not sure who you think is overreacting.

 

Maybe we can just shrug and move on?

Agreed. Several pages ago I said something along the lines of "If you* still don't understand why we shouldn't use that phrase, there's probably nothing I can say that will convince you." Shoulda taken my own advise, and will from here on out.

 

* Rhetorical you.

[bigdamnhero]

[One last one...]

IYour hypothesis that the casual use of "rape" out of context desensitizes people to real rape is interesting.  I find it "plausible, but unproven." I'm not certain it is falsifiable.

I actually did see a study along those lines awhile back, but can't find the link now. They had people watch videos, some of which included jokes and comments comparing rape to trivial things; and then had them read stories that included things like rape, robbery, assault, murder, etc. and had them rate how bad the different things were. They found that people who had been exposed to material trivializing rape found depictions of rape less "bad" than the control group whose videos did not contain such material. Wish I could find the study now, because it was actually pretty interesting. But the notion that comparing something to trivial things has a tendency to, well, trivialize it isn't exactly a stretch.

 

And aside from broader sociological impacts: I've had a number of sexual abuse survivors tell me personally they feel those sorts of comments/jokes trivialize what they went through. So I try not to make comments/jokes like that around them. And since I know there are plenty of other people out there who feel similarly but may not feel comfortable speaking up about it, I try not to say stuff like that period. And when people point out I've done something similar to another group, I try not to do that again. That's just basic trying not to be a bigger jerk than I have to be.

[Vondy]

 

Sound great. So I'm not sure why you're so defensive when someone points out ways people could maybe be better at that?

 

 

 

I wasn't being defensive. 

 

No one said anything aimed at me I required defense from.

 

Nor am I given to defending myself at all.

 

I don't see a need to. Its the Internet.

 

I took a strong position and stated an unequivocal opinion.

 

That's it.

 

Characterizing a dissenting opinion as "defensive" is a touch kafka-esque.

 

My point was, and remains, that unreasonable reactions to an offense tend to undermine legitimate complaints.

 

Not all unpleasant remarks require us to work the hand-crank on the outrage machine. 

 

Or to bandy about thought-interrupting and defamatory words like sexism and racism that serve as contemporary scarlet letters. 

 

When you use those terms at the drop of a hat, over trivial offenses, when little is at stake, they become meaningless.

 

Which is, I believe, the point that was being made about rape, no?

[Hyper-Man]

Sorry for the derail folks.

 

HM

[Vondy]

[One last one...]

I actually did see a study along those lines awhile back, but can't find the link now. They had people watch videos, some of which included jokes and comments comparing rape to trivial things; and then had them read stories that included things like rape, robbery, assault, murder, etc. and had them rate how bad the different things were. They found that people who had been exposed to material trivializing rape found depictions of rape less "bad" than the control group whose videos did not contain such material. Wish I could find the study now, because it was actually pretty interesting. But the notion that comparing something to trivial things has a tendency to, well, trivialize it isn't exactly a stretch.

Your closing remark indicates you're more interested in continuing an argument than actually reading what I write. I didn't say it was a stretch. I said it was "interesting" and "plausible, but unproven." I also indicated I wasn't certain if it was falsifiable or not. Not certain means... "not certain." I've seen a lot of studies. Some are good. Some are bad. One is seldom enough, however. A single study you can't even provide the link to? You'll understand if I stick to "plausible, but unproven."

 

I believe we have reasonable suspicion that vulgar jokes and bad analogies about rape lead some people to trivialize it. I would go so far as to say it has verisimilitude and is worth further investigation. But, I would also caution that sword likely cuts both ways. That's my hypothesis. When you start using serious defamatory words to describe trivial offenses, they lose their power and people stop caring. Words like racism, sexist, homophobia... you know, the evil-isms we hold so taboo. If people use those terms injudiciously and at the drop of the hat, I suggest people may not see those as evils and taboos to be taken seriously. I suspect you would consider such an outcome undesirable.

 

And aside from broader sociological impacts: I've had a number of sexual abuse survivors tell me personally they feel those sorts of comments/jokes trivialize what they went through. So I try not to make comments/jokes like that around them. And since I know there are plenty of other people out there who feel similarly but may not feel comfortable speaking up about it, I try not to say stuff like that period. And when people point out I've done something similar to another group, I try not to do that again. That's just basic trying not to be a bigger jerk than I have to be.

No one suggested you did make such comments. I would think you wouldn't irrespective of what anyone had told you. Why? Because I assume most of the people I meet are decent at heart. Nor do I disagree that they would rightfully feel trivialized by such remarks. They rightfully should. But, magnifying rape does nothing to help rape victims recover and get on with life. Its a traumatic experience and a a grievous offense against human dignity. There are others. Torture, maiming, grievous beatings / near fatal assaults, watching comrades or loved ones executed, extended child abuse. The list goes on and on and on. Rape victims, like all human beings, are individuals. There is a great deal of phenomenology in play. What is a "fate worse than death" to one rape victim may not be nearly as traumatic to another. I prefer not to impose propaganda on people in crisis. Its best to deal with them where they are at. That, of course, requires being sensitive to their experience. That's so basic that I'm not sure why we're talking about it. What I really don't understand, however, is what any of this has to do with anything beyond your taking yet another opportunity to tell us what a good guy you are.

 

I'm out.

[Vondy]

Sorry for the derail folks.

 

HM

 

As well you should be! 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do have ideas for shorter products that I would be inspired to write.

I would also pay for the art.

 

I do as well, although the art I can't cover.  What could be done is a kickstarter to pay for the costs along those lines.  I do really want to move forward on Astro City Hero, but that would require significant assistance from Hero Games and someone handling stuff like the publicity and crowdfunding.

 

How much would it cost to bring a 128 page 6x9 glossy book to print?

 

Depends on the print lot, but if you go Print on Demand, which is a better model anyway, it costs you... zero.  They just take a large chunk of the cover price.  The more you print, the less they charge.

[Vondy]

Talk to DriveThru RPG or even Jason. They at least know how much Print on Demand books cost. Which seems to be the way that many smaller companies are going.

Thank you!

 

But, you had me at Coke Zero.

[bigdamnhero]

Vondy: I'm not sure how you got any of that from what I actually wrote, but I agree it's obvious we're talking past each other. See you around.

[Lucius]

 

[back on topic...]

Interesting way of looking at it. Of course D&D very nearly did fail with 4ed. If they had gone down I'm not sure it would've been more than a blip on Hasbro's bottom line, so from that aspect no. But in terms of its effect on the hobby overall? Maybe. If Pathfinder (which as pointed out is D&D under another name) hadn't stepped up, how many people would've left the hobby altogether vs how many would've drifted to other games?

That's a false dichotomy. I could be wrong, but I suspect the majority would have neither "drifted to other games" nor would they have "left the hobby."

 

I expect they would just keep on playing. The rule books, dice, and character sheets would not have magically disappeared just because the company went out of business.

 

for depictions of domestic abuse in old sitcoms. ("One of these days Alice...")

Go back and watch that show again. Look at Alice. Her face, her stance.

She's standing there, usually arms crossed, totally unafraid.

She knows "one of these days" means "never." So does he, really.

So, I would argue, did most of the audience.

 

She's never afraid of him. He, on the other hand, whatever trouble he's gotten himself into, is always worried about her finding out. HE fears HER much more than the other way around.

 

I won't say their dynamic doesn't have problematic implications about cultural norms about gender (a discussion that surely belongs in another thread) and I won't say there are no examples of domestic abuse in old sitcoms, but I will say that this isn't an example.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

One of these days I'll make a tagline without a palindromedary.

[bluesguy]

What was this thread about again....

[Lucius]

What was this thread about again....

I forget...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedaries! that was it!

[bigdamnhero]

Sorry for the derail folks.

Same here.

[bigdamnhero]

That's a false dichotomy. I could be wrong, but I suspect the majority would have neither "drifted to other games" nor would they have "left the hobby."

 

I expect they would just keep on playing. The rule books, dice, and character sheets would not have magically disappeared just because the company went out of business.

Fair point. But as we've discussed, when a game goes out of print or stops being supported by new publications, over time that does have an effect on how many people play it.

[Vondy]

What was this thread about again....

 

Most threads are were-discourses. 

 

They change, often violently, depending on on the phase of the moon.

 

Or the mood of the participants.

 

I call it, Tangenthropy. 

[Vondy]

Maybe someone should start a NGD thread about this stuff or a few since there's a few topics being hashed out here. 

 

I promise to stop and focus on products, etc.