Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[bigdamnhero]

Which makes "introductory/intermediate/advanced" harder to contend with. How can you tell the introductory player "You can make anything you want! As long as your idea doesn't involve these constructs which we've deemed more advanced and too complicated..."

 

It's where Hero Basic kind of failed, it literally left some cool options out.

Fair point, given that I myself have criticized Basic for exactly that. But if you're doing a genre-specific book, it's easier to make those choices and narrow things down. For example an Introductory Champions product would probably include Knockback and Superheroic Pushing, but not Hit Locations and Heroic Pushing; an Introductory Fantasy Hero product might make the exact opposite choices. And then the tag is "For more cool options, buy the Advanced (genre-neutral) book that has All The Rules." That might also help with clarifying what options are necessary/appropriate for different genres and levels of play, while still making the other bits available to plus in if you want.

[Joe Walsh]

So you think we're just too far removed from the time when these things were separate products for people to realize what's what? That sounds reasonable.

 

Take Cortex Plus, its variants, and that hacking doc they put out a while back. People seem to deal fine with choosing this and that option from the piles of 'em available, because it's so bleeding obvious that they are options, since they don't all appear in one publication.

[massey]

I have noticed that Hero is getting compared to Genre Specific games a whole lot. Which isn't particularly fair.

 

It's easy to zone in, narrow down, and simplify choices when you're trying to create a specific feel for a specific genre & setting.

 

Hero is not a beast of that nature, the rules inherently have no genre attached, nor should they. They should even default to the assumed Superhero Genre.

 

Which makes "introductory/intermediate/advanced" harder to contend with. How can you tell the introductory player "You can make anything you want! As long as your idea doesn't involve these constructs which we've deemed more advanced and too complicated..."

 

It's where Hero Basic kind of failed, it literally left some cool options out.

There's a difference between an experienced player and a beginner. Most people on this board know the system backwards and forwards. An intro version isn't really for us.

 

Telling a brand new player "you can make whatever you want" isn't necessarily that big a draw. And it's not always appropriate for the genre or the game. That's what Hero has traditionally done, and I don't think it has worked. Limiting the game system so hat it better fits certain genres is, I think, more appealing to new players.

 

If I'm playing "Friday the 13th Hero", then including the disabling and impairing rules is probably a given. The same with hit locations. But you don't need the rules for knockback, and you likely don't need any of the Powers, except those that Jason has.

 

Most people aren't interested in building their car from individual parts. The same goes for their RPGs as well. Hero 6th is presented like you just dropped a guy off in a warehouse with a zillion car parts. And you say "you can build anything you want". That's great for a gear-head. But a normal person just wants to get a cool car and drive around.

 

I think you are overestimating the appeal of a do-anything system.

[massey]

I think it is fine to have the 6ed books and keep them available as PDFs. I don't know that I'd spend the money to reprint them. Maybe if the game really takes off again.

 

If I were in charge, and spending my own money to get product out, I'd put out a few genre books like Champions Complete, and then a few setting books. I'd also put out a lot of basic adventures that have stripped down versions of the rules, just enough for the adventure. It would be something where players can learn the basics of the game in a few minutes, and get to playing right away. We're talking no more than 5 or 10 pages of rules. And it would say on the cover "Everything You Need To Play" and "Compatible With Horror Hero Complete and the 6ed Hero Rules".

 

So to play an intro adventure, you'd only need the adventure book. For info on running a long-running campaign in that genre, you get the genre book. For the all-everything rules with every option you could ever think of, you get the full 6ed encyclopedia set.

[ghost-angel]

I completely disagree with everything you just said, massey. So I'll just skip past it.

 

Fair point, given that I myself have criticized Basic for exactly that. But if you're doing a genre-specific book, it's easier to make those choices and narrow things down. For example an Introductory Champions product would probably include Knockback and Superheroic Pushing, but not Hit Locations and Heroic Pushing; an Introductory Fantasy Hero product might make the exact opposite choices. And then the tag is "For more cool options, buy the Advanced (genre-neutral) book that has All The Rules." That might also help with clarifying what options are necessary/appropriate for different genres and levels of play, while still making the other bits available to plus in if you want.

 

Something exactly like this, yes. To get into detail: Fantasy Hero Complete included Knockback rules with a "In some Superheroic Fantasy Campaigns"... remove that entirely. It doesn't apply to probably 90% of Fantasy games out there. For things like Atlantean Age (to which is does apply) you have a "Included Optional & Advanced Rules" section in that Setting Book.

 

So you think we're just too far removed from the time when these things were separate products for people to realize what's what? That sounds reasonable.

 

Take Cortex Plus, its variants, and that hacking doc they put out a while back. People seem to deal fine with choosing this and that option from the piles of 'em available, because it's so bleeding obvious that they are options, since they don't all appear in one publication.

 

 

I'm not sure if we're too far removed, but our Complete Books don't go far enough down the path to create Pure Genre Books, they're still trying to be The Genreless Rules, Now With Extra Genre! - Given the general explosion of the Fate System, and the adaptions of the D20 System it seems feasible you could generate both a very Genre Focused set of Rules & A very unfocused Generic Rules as a Roll Your Own kind of thing. And I really do mean Genre Focused;

 

As Example: bleeding rules really aren't in Genre for Superheroic gameplay (especially as Superheroic gameplay trends towards a glossier Silver Age, and even when it doesn't, the blood is SFX). Knockdown shouldn't even be mentioned, the default is Knockback to simulate Genre. That kind of thing.

[Vondy]

Fair point, given that I myself have criticized Basic for exactly that. But if you're doing a genre-specific book, it's easier to make those choices and narrow things down. For example an Introductory Champions product would probably include Knockback and Superheroic Pushing, but not Hit Locations and Heroic Pushing; an Introductory Fantasy Hero product might make the exact opposite choices. And then the tag is "For more cool options, buy the Advanced (genre-neutral) book that has All The Rules." That might also help with clarifying what options are necessary/appropriate for different genres and levels of play, while still making the other bits available to plus in if you want.

This.

[Vondy]

I completely disagree with everything you just said, massey. So I'll just skip past it.

 

 

Something exactly like this, yes. To get into detail: Fantasy Hero Complete included Knockback rules with a "In some Superheroic Fantasy Campaigns"... remove that entirely. It doesn't apply to probably 90% of Fantasy games out there. For things like Atlantean Age (to which is does apply) you have a "Included Optional & Advanced Rules" section in that Setting Book.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if we're too far removed, but our Complete Books don't go far enough down the path to create Pure Genre Books, they're still trying to be The Genreless Rules, Now With Extra Genre! - Given the general explosion of the Fate System, and the adaptions of the D20 System it seems feasible you could generate both a very Genre Focused set of Rules & A very unfocused Generic Rules as a Roll Your Own kind of thing. And I really do mean Genre Focused;

 

As Example: bleeding rules really aren't in Genre for Superheroic gameplay (especially as Superheroic gameplay trends towards a glossier Silver Age, and even when it doesn't, the blood is SFX). Knockdown shouldn't even be mentioned, the default is Knockback to simulate Genre. That kind of thing.

Also this.

[borbetomagnus]

 

 

I wrote a whole document about how to do the old-school gritty, "low" heroic level games in Hero (the HERO System Low Heroic Protocols, right there in my signature).  

 

Chris,

 

Thanks for the links in your signature. I downloaded "How to Play HERO System." It's very clear and thorough. 

[Chris Goodwin]

I have noticed that Hero is getting compared to Genre Specific games a whole lot. Which isn't particularly fair.

 

It's easy to zone in, narrow down, and simplify choices when you're trying to create a specific feel for a specific genre & setting.

 

Hero is not a beast of that nature, the rules inherently have no genre attached, nor should they. They shouldn't even default to the assumed Superhero Genre.

 

Which makes "introductory/intermediate/advanced" harder to contend with. How can you tell the introductory player "You can make anything you want! As long as your idea doesn't involve these constructs which we've deemed more advanced and too complicated..."

 

It's where Hero Basic kind of failed, it literally left some cool options out.

 

I say, how can you tell an introductory player, here are all the tools you need to build the world, and then don't teach them how to use them?  

 

When you're teaching someone to swim, you don't drop them in the deep end of the pool.  You teach them how to float, and you make them wear swim goggles, and you teach them how to exhale so as not to get water up their nose.  When you're teaching a carpenter, you don't give them a shop full of tools and lumber and say "Now you can build a house."  You teach them how to hold a hammer and pound nails straight and to measure twice, cut once, and to wear safety goggles and always read and follow the safety instructions on the caution labels.  

 

You start people small, but fer cryin' out loud you don't leave them there!  You're also building the swimmer's confidence so they can eventually swim in the deep end, so the carpenter will eventually build a house or beautiful furniture.  And this is what I'm talking about.  Introductory tools so that people can learn the game and have fun while they're doing it.  

[ghost-angel]

Well, yes, obviously. Nothing you just said has anything to do with the statement you just quoted. It mostly just restates it in different verbiage.

[bigdamnhero]

Telling a brand new player "you can make whatever you want" isn't necessarily that big a draw.

It's worth noting that is exactly what drew me to Hero in the first place back in 1985. I expect that's true for a lot of us die-hards. The question is are there enough of us to sustain a system and/or company? Breaking it down:

1. Is the number of people that attracts exceeded by the number of people it turns away?
2. If so, are there things Hero could do to make the system appeal more to new players?
3. Is it possible to do so without alienating the existing fan base? and
4. Does it make sense for DOJ/Hero Games to focus more on attracting new players or on continuing to cater to existing players?

Speaking only as an RPG consumer who has little-to-no visibility on the business side, my gut says the answers to 1-3 is "probably yes." #4 is the critical answer, and one that can really only be answered by those with a financial stake in the company. Tho Danny Devito's speech from Other People's Money comes to mind: "You know the surest way to go broke? Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market. Down the tubes. Slow but sure."

[massey]

It's worth noting that is exactly what drew me to Hero in the first place back in 1985. I expect that's true for a lot of us die-hards. The question is are there enough of us to sustain a system and/or company? Breaking it down:

• Is the number of people that attracts exceeded by the number of people it turns away?
• If so, are there things Hero could do to make the system appeal more to new players?
• Is it possible to do so without alienating the existing fan base? and
• Does it make sense for DOJ/Hero Games to focus more on attracting new players or on continuing to cater to existing players?

Speaking only as an RPG consumer who has little-to-no visibility on the business side, my gut says the answers to 1-3 is "probably yes." #4 is the critical answer, and one that can really only be answered by those with a financial stake in the company. Tho Danny Devito's speech from Other People's Money comes to mind: "You know the surest way to go broke? Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market. Down the tubes. Slow but sure."

And that's a good way to look at it. I read the whole book when I first got into Champions, basically cover to cover. I wanted to build very powerful characters right away.

 

And I don't think anyone is saying that new players should be prohibited from picking up the main rules and playing with as many options as they want. From the very beginning, if they feel like it. What I am saying (and I think a lot of other people as well), is that there's a potentially large market for a fast, easy intro game.

[bigdamnhero]

And that's a good way to look at it. I read the whole book when I first got into Champions, basically cover to cover.

Same here, tho again it's worth pointing out that the covers were a lot closer together when we started out. And I did the same with 6ed...but would I have done so if I didn't already have 20+ years invested in the system? I honestly don't know.

[ghost-angel]

I think it's possible to do both, GURPS is the closest thing to an actual Hero Analog and they have maintained some market share with such a construct.

 

Though, personally I'd be less interested in trying to keep the old user base;

1st, every iteration loses some as they decide not to upgrade (more so when they look at a change into a newer version and hate it outright...)

2nd, we're dying off. Literally.

3rd, it's not 30 years ago anymore, there is a market out there to capture, and like it was in our youth, that market is not (just) the older generation.

 

I think if you can answer questions 1 and 2 above with a yes, then question 3 is moot. If new blood exceeds old blood, then the old blood no longer becomes the market to cater to.

 

That's trick though, I guess... The How of it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

What we're up against isn't just "math is hard!" its a general move away from role playing games at all.  There's a core of die-hards and their kids and whatever new recruits we might find who play RPGs, but for the most part, its a very diminished hobby.  Its too much trouble to meet up once a week or so.  Its too much work to build those adventures and run a game.  

 

Its too much trouble to make a character.  Its not visually stimulating enough to sit around a table and imagine.  I have 102812057 distractions, this is dull and lame.

 

Hero isn't a particular example of this, the whole industry and hobby is suffering from modern culture.  That's not likely to change any time soon no matter what clever books we put out.

 

We can come out with better ways to present Hero to the gaming community, but as for growing it?  We're up against it pretty hard, folks.

[Surrealone]

Anyone remember that 1979 song by the Buggles titled Video Killed the Radio Star?  Well, video games killed the RPG player...

 

Video games are now ubiquitous (on your phone, your tablet, your gaming console at home, your computer, etc.) and are pretty stunning.  In addition, unlike the video games of yesteryear that were 1, 2, or at best 4-player, there are now massively multi-player varietals that keep on going while people sleep ... meaning there's a digital world ... full of people ... that one is missing out on when not playing.

 

The younger generation probably wonders: Why use a pencil, paper, dice, a rulebook, and one's imagination when one can use a controller or console, a computing device of some kind, and a screen to augment one's imagination -- with no rules or math, at all?  After all, it's on tap ... with no trip to the arcade needed ... and might even be in the palm of one's hand ... playable via a mobile network.

 

This is what RPG's compete with, today.  Want to know what they'll compete with tomorrow -- how about games built for Oculus Rift with stereo sound?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Ultimately, when people find the limitations of these beautifully appearing but ultimately shallow games, they can be lured to try RPGs, but its a tough competition either way.  In time things will turn again, but right now, we're in a tough place.

Thankfully there are gamer parents out there teaching kids to play and use their imaginations instead of paying to use other peoples'

[massey]

There were some pretty good games available when I got into RPGs.  I mean, I had a Super Nintendo, and I thought it was awesome.  RPGs still have an appeal to a certain type of player.  But you need good presentation to draw them in, and depth once they get in.

 

I don't know that RPGs have ever been that huge a thing.  Other than D&D, it's always been a niche product.  I haven't seen industry numbers, but I'd guess that they've never been huge sellers.

[massey]

I think it's possible to do both, GURPS is the closest thing to an actual Hero Analog and they have maintained some market share with such a construct.

 

Though, personally I'd be less interested in trying to keep the old user base;

1st, every iteration loses some as they decide not to upgrade (more so when they look at a change into a newer version and hate it outright...)

2nd, we're dying off. Literally.

3rd, it's not 30 years ago anymore, there is a market out there to capture, and like it was in our youth, that market is not (just) the older generation.

 

I think if you can answer questions 1 and 2 above with a yes, then question 3 is moot. If new blood exceeds old blood, then the old blood no longer becomes the market to cater to.

 

That's trick though, I guess... The How of it.

 

And see, that's why I suggest creating a series of "Diet Hero" adventures that someone could pay 5 bucks for, then pick up and play.

 

The best way to learn the system is to have someone teach you.  Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of Hero GMs just floating around in the ether.  So a product to help newbie GMs learn to run Hero would be helpful.  The Big Books are intimidating, and not user friendly.  

[Chris Goodwin]

Well, yes, obviously. Nothing you just said has anything to do with the statement you just quoted. It mostly just restates it in different verbiage.

Then I guess we'll just have to agree to... agree.

[bigdamnhero]

I think if you can answer questions 1 and 2 above with a yes, then question 3 is moot. If new blood exceeds old blood, then the old blood no longer becomes the market to cater to.

I would say if the answer to #3 is also yes, then it makes #4 less risky, ie - if you can attract new players and keep your existing base. If the answer to #3 is no, that makes #4 harder.

 

As for video games, I think that's a false comparison. Yes video games are ubiquitous now, but 90% of the people playing them would never play a pen-and-paper RPG either way. We are a small niche market and always have been, but I don't see any evidence there are significantly fewer people playing pen-and-paper RPGs now than there were 30 years ago. I don't have access to industry sales figures and the like, but just according to Wikipedia D&D had 3 million players by 1981, and as many as 6 million in 2007. So if the number of people playing paper RPGs now is the same or more than it was 30 years ago, who cares how many people are playing video games, any more than we should care that more people go to see movies. Hero isn't competing with video games and never will. And I think the spectacular failure that was D&D 4e is an object lesson about trying to compete with video games.

[ghost-angel]

Yeah, that. In a nutshell. RPGs aren't video games, they fail miserably when they think the Gamer Market = RPG Market. It's very old-think. People in the 80s & 90s who played RPGs were probably also the kinds of people that were involved in online culture, and video gaming culture beyond casual play. As each segment became more prominent, and more interlaced, more and more people got involved and online and into video games. The Ven-Diagram of RPG+VideoGame started to overlap less and less.

 

Or possibly just mixing up demographics. After all the largest chunk of video gamers fill the 18-35 demographic. But then, the largest chunk of almost any media market is the 18-35 demographic.

 

Either way, you don't want to capture the video gamer market, you want to capture the people who feel limited by the video games themselves; The last thing any RPG should want to do (as the aforementioned D&D4) is try and emulate them.

[Ninja-Bear]

Actually the market you want to capture is the market with spending money.

[Surrealone]

I'm not suggesting RPG's try to capture the video gamer market; I'm simply saying that video games that are quick/easy/pretty compete with RPGs as a form of entertainment ... and because they're quick/easy/pretty, they'll usually win.

 

i.e. Video games are the 800 pound gorilla in the games-as-entertainment space in which RPGs, card games, board games, etc. all compete.

[zslane]

The biggest advantage that table top RPGs have over video games is their complete open-endedness. You are not constrained by the game's programming, you are only constrained by your (collective) imaginations and common sense.

 

The biggest advantage that video games have over RPGs is convenience. It is easier to hop into a video game, and hop out again, on a whim and at a moment's notice, than it is to gather a group of friends to meet for a traditional face-to-face table top RPG session.

 

So the question then becomes, at what point does the primary advantage of one outweigh the primary advantage of the other? For most people today, I imagine, convenience trumps open-endedness. It's why I probably spent more hours playing City of Heroes from 2004-2012 than all the hours I ever spent playing table top RPGs from 1980-2012. At this point I think I love the idea of the table top experience more than the reality of it. And if I could have my City of Heroes back again, I'd gladly turn in all my 6th ed. books to make it happen.

 

I'm a long-time Champions/Hero System evangelist and even I realize that the corner was turned for me on this issue years ago. Imagine how non-table-top-fans feel about it. Darn few of them are going to become table top RPG fans, and even fewer still Hero System fans. We are trying to appeal to a largely static, if not diminishing, population, and I don't see anything on the cultural horizon that is likely to change that.