Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Christopher R Taylor]

just imagine if (for example) "Fantasy Hero" instead of being packed full of full hero system examples and general advice had instead had a simplified template+modules approach to allow people to build relatively generic characters in an hour or so in the front section of the book

 

 

I'm actually working on just that, for my Jolrhos Fantasy Hero setting.  I have templates built for characteristics (strong, smart, fast, etc), profession (bard, spy, tradesman), and type (barbarian, do-gooder, lover) so people can mix and match to build their character as quickly and easily as possible.  So no "player classes" but rather combinations of ideas in blocks that can be combined in various formats.  My character is a Smart/Hunter/Trickster!

 

And I've been putting out a couple of modules a year, trying to build up a library of adventures people can grab and throw into their game right away.  In time, I'd love to develop Pathfinder-style adventure arcs.

 

Its just me writing, illustrating, doing layouts, publication etc so its a bit slow.

[bigdamnhero]

I'm always a bit loathe to suggest "what Hero Games should do" because it's usually a thousand times easier to suggest something than to actually do it,

True dat.

 

but just imagine if (for example) "Fantasy Hero" instead of being packed full of full hero system examples and general advice had instead had a simplified template+modules approach to allow people to build relatively generic characters in an hour or so in the front section of the book, GM's advice in the middle section of the book with advice (referring back to the full hero rules) on what kinds of modules and how many points are suitable for different fantasy world archetypes, with guidance on how the modules and packages were made and how they can be customised or expanded to full Hero system. and finally several short, generic linked adventures to get the group started.

 

That approach requires that the GM own the core rules, but that given, you have everything else you need to get started and run a game. Now apply that approach to (for example) the spy/vigilante genre, or anything else you want - for that matter, you can do it for specific settings within a genre. Valdorian Age, for example, went some way in that direction, changing some basic assumptions, but the Hero system was still heavily on display in all its opulent mechanistic glory ... and more and more, I don't think it actually needs to be.

I'd love to see that approach. The Core Rules have a simplified version of the Powers, Advantages, Limitations, etc that us grognards know and love, but the genre books are full of pre-built plug-and-play material.

[phoenix240]

I like the genre books with advice on how to use the base rules for specific styles and genres and how to create (or translate) things into Hero System terms. I really found them very useful even inspirational and illustrative of the HS's flexibility. 

 

No reason there can't a mix. The previous genre books have had templates, package deals, pre built equipment and other items along with campaign and mechanical suggestions and avice. 

[bigdamnhero]

No reason there can't a mix. The previous genre books have had templates, package deals, pre built equipment and other items along with campaign and mechanical suggestions and avice. 

Yes, but much of that advice is still very "here's how to build it yourself" rather than "here, take this." And even the stuff that is pre-built still details all the mechanical build. Using Instant Change as an example: as a new player, do I really need to see:

 

Instant Change:  Cosmetic Transform 1d6 (Clothes Into Costume, Healed by another Transform), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +3/4) (7 Active Points); Limited Target Clothes Worn (-1), No Range (-1/2) [3 Real Points]

 

Or just:

 

Instant Change: Allows the character to instantly change into their costume and back again. [3 CP]

 

Even aside from issues of length and complexity, the former is written in Hero-speak, a language most of us are fluent in, but can be confusing and even intimidating to a new player just learning the lingo. The latter is in plain English, and requires no additional explanation.

 

And I agree, as a Roll Your Own kindof guy myself, I'd still like to see the mechanics breakdown somewhere, the same way 6e1 has a page in the back that shows how all the standard Talents were built. But maybe we don't always need to lead with that.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's why I think the core rulebook can be the super detailed tome of doom, but individual genre books can be this stripped down version: just the basics, delivered in plain language, with easy to read write ups that are minimalistic.

[Surrealone]

Yes, but much of that advice is still very "here's how to build it yourself" rather than "here, take this." And even the stuff that is pre-built still details all the mechanical build. Using Instant Change as an example: as a new player, do I really need to see:

 

Instant Change:  Cosmetic Transform 1d6 (Clothes Into Costume, Healed by another Transform), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +3/4) (7 Active Points); Limited Target Clothes Worn (-1), No Range (-1/2) [3 Real Points]

 

Or just:

 

Instant Change: Allows the character to instantly change into their costume and back again. [3 CP]

 

Even aside from issues of length and complexity, the former is written in Hero-speak, a language most of us are fluent in, but can be confusing and even intimidating to a new player just learning the lingo. The latter is in plain English, and requires no additional explanation.

 

And I agree, as a Roll Your Own kindof guy myself, I'd still like to see the mechanics breakdown somewhere, the same way 6e1 has a page in the back that shows how all the standard Talents were built. But maybe we don't always need to lead with that.

 

Instant change is a great example.  It used to be simple and easy, but now it's a complete pain in the butt to list on a character sheet since, technically, it doesn't exist in its own right, anymore (i.e. it's now just a 'brand' of cosmetic change).

 

Books with piles of pre-built talents, powers, etc. that you can just use ... and reference if needed (rather than having a mechanical build-out on the char sheet) would be a huge boon.  It's akin to a mage's list of known spells in 1st and 2nd Ed. AD&D ... where on the character sheet there's a list of known spells, without all the specifics pertaining to components (V, S, M), reagents (for the material part of the spell components), casting time, etc.  If anyone's in doubt as to how it works, it gets looked up on the spot.

 

That said, how well did the UNTIL SP DB sell?  It's truly a compilation of pre-built things.  Did people eat it up or ignore it?  If it was ignored was it an organizational problem with the material (i.e. how it was laid out), a genre problem (i.e. clearly hero/superhero), or was the player base sending a message that it wasn't interested in genre books with lots of pre-built talents, powers, etc.?

[Vondy]

My sweet spot for crunch is a cleaned up and more clearly explained 4e. 5th and 6th introduced some good ideas, but the trend towards increased crunchiness, granularity, and definitional bloat killed it for me. I stopped running supers and high fantasy (anything that required me to use the powers system extensively) entirely. It's not that I can't do it, but frankly, I really don't want to. If I can't find a pre-built super-skill in a book like pulp hero or dark champions, or a spell, I probably won't run it. It has also led me to pick genres where, if the supernatural does exist, I only have to bud a page or two of powers / spells to be done with it. For me, I keep going to other systems because hero collapsed under its own weight.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think lists of powers is sort of pointless for the system but some commonly built powers like Instant Change, flash defense goggles, etc would be good for a Champions genre book.

[Vondy]

Instant change is a great example. It used to be simple and easy, but now it's a complete pain in the butt to list on a character sheet since, technically, it doesn't exist in its own right, anymore (i.e. it's now just a 'brand' of cosmetic change.

Word.

[Vondy]

I think lists of powers is sort of pointless for the system but some commonly built powers like Instant Change, flash defense goggles, etc would be good for a Champions genre book.

I think it's less useful for supers. But, for the system? I leverage the pre-built in the heroic genre books HARD.

[phoenix240]

Yes, but much of that advice is still very "here's how to build it yourself" rather than "here, take this." And even the stuff that is pre-built still deta

ils all the mechanical build.

I know. That's what I and the others I've introduced to the system liked about them the here's how to build it (or modify) it yourself material with an eye towards using the core rules to emulate specific genres.  If I wanted a a shopping list of how someone else thought the game I wanted to create should ework to pick from we could chosen any number of games. 

 

I'm fine with a mixture. There sort of is one already. The genre books tend to have allot of pre built things and there were books like the Grimoires, Power data bases, etc. But for some of us the options are selling point and presenting them a draw. It makes the "complexity" worth it. There wasn't a one true way with Hero System. That's what made it attractive to us. 

[Tasha]

That said, how well did the UNTIL SP DB sell?  It's truly a compilation of pre-built things.  Did people eat it up or ignore it?  If it was ignored was it an organizational problem with the material (i.e. how it was laid out), a genre problem (i.e. clearly hero/superhero), or was the player base sending a message that it wasn't interested in genre books with lots of pre-built talents, powers, etc.?

 

It sold well enough to spawn a 6e version. Champions Powers is the Until SPDB done for 6e. Also there's the Hero System Grimoire for Fantasy Hero (or any game that needs spells).

[Ninja-Bear]

I like prebuilts but I tend to have to still modify them to suit to my game.

[Markdoc]

And I agree, as a Roll Your Own kindof guy myself, I'd still like to see the mechanics breakdown somewhere, the same way 6e1 has a page in the back that shows how all the standard Talents were built. But maybe we don't always need to lead with that.

 

More and more I am of the opinion that - for entry-level games - that "talents" are the way to go. By that I mean, taking the same approach - self-contained microbuilds with a simple purpose, with a simple description.

 

It's important to stress that I am not suggesting changing the rules at all. Just hiding them, at the front end.

 

As an example, allowing a player to choose:

 

Ninja spy (15 pts). You are skilled at stealth and infiltration.

 

or:

 

Climbing  (CHA-), 3 points

Concealment  (CHA-), 3 points

Security systems  (CHA-), 3 points

Stealth (CHA-), 3 points

Ninja lore and codes  (CHA-), 3 points

 

is functionally equivalent, both in gameplay and system build, but it takes up a great deal less space. More importantly, it's a great deal less intimidating to a new player.

 

But the important flip side of that is that as long as the builds are clear to the GM, they can be modified, expanded or improved as desired

 

cheers, Mark

[Ninja-Bear]

And this would also be a boon for new GMs too! It seems that people are suggesting an improved version of Fuzion. (Holding 1/2 phase to Dodge)

[Vondy]

I like prebuilts but I tend to have to still modify them to suit to my game.

True, but for me, I just write down the title with a mod notion and call it a day.

[Tasha]

I like prebuilts but I tend to have to still modify them to suit to my game.

I like prebuilts too, but this isn't really here for advanced players/GM's like ourselves. These discussions always bog down when people get afraid that what is being advocated is the removal of the power system. I would love to see campaign books that include tons of prebuilt characters and options. Would also include a PDF that would have the prebuilt stuff broken down into it's components so advanced Players/GMs could modify said abilities.

[Joe Walsh]

I would love to see campaign books that include tons of prebuilt characters and options. Would also include a PDF that would have the prebuilt stuff broken down into it's components so advanced Players/GMs could modify said abilities.

 

That'd be a great way to do it.

 

Something like GURPS 4e's Templates and Lenses would be great, with the gritty HERO details hidden in a PDF as you suggest.

[ghost-angel]

The gist of the conversation seems that the way 6E split up things was hard to parse, and kind of pain & perhaps it should be split a little more like this:

 

Players Book

1. Introduction

2. Character Creation

 2a- Point Totals For Genres

 2b- Characteristics

 2c- Skills

 2d- Perks & Talents

 2e- Pre-Built Powers (a couple builds of each Power, with some variations for flavor, Choose Your Special Effect & Write It On The Sheet)

 2f- Compliations

3. Playing The Game (Senses, Movement, Maneuvers, Damage, etc, blah & so on)

4. A Basic Setting for major genres

 

GMs Guidebook

1. Introduction

2. Setting Character Point Totals & Genre Discussion

3. Some more Optional Rules (possibly?)

4. The Mechanics: The Builds from Players Handbook: This is where the meat of 6E1 sits, How to make, break, modify, spin, mutilate, drop, bend, and mishandle the Hero System

5. Changing The System

 

So book one looks similar to 6E1, but where there's 300 pages of Powers + Modifiers there's probably a much smaller page count of Simple Power Builds in a "Pick & Go kind of way); & the first half of 6E2 should be there too - so any Player can pick up the book, sit down, rock out a Character, and get on with the game.

 

The GMs Book has the meat of the Power Descriptions in pure raw form, basically all the tools in the box for any enterprising person at the table to go nuts in classic Hero fashion. It has more in depth look at how to put together the system, how to mix elements, and lots of Optional Rules (like all the extensive bleeding rules).

 

You've got one book aimed at the whole group, with the rules for actually making & playing a character. as well as some basics on running the campaign.

The second book is all the stuff that makes Hero tick in all it's messy aspects. The audience here is GMs looking to set up their own worlds, players who tinker, and long time Hero gamers.

 

After that, Genre books are nice, and I like Hero's in depth look at a Genre, but we also need actual, set in stone "These are the parameters & campaign" World Books, complete with a chapter for Players with some more builds in it & and a GM Chapter with how the campaign world is laid out mechanically (this includes things like what is and isn't allowed, assumed power level, how magic works in this fantasy world, etc and so on).

 

It keeps the main fairly generic, as is Hero's strength, and provides some ongoing splat book creation within campaign worlds...

[Ragitsu]

Similar arguments in regards to introductory tactics have been made for GURPS as well.

 

Essentially, you give new players a small box of LEGOs to get them used to a basic framework (stripped down and unambiguous abilities) while keeping the gigantic tub of Erector Set pieces (the complete rules) on hand for when they're ready to tinker around.

[Markdoc]

And this would also be a boon for new GMs too! It seems that people are suggesting an improved version of Fuzion. (Holding 1/2 phase to Dodge)

 

Nah. Fuzion got flack (rightly) because it was half a game, with bad math.

 

I'm not suggesting changing the game at all. I'm just suggesting hiding the mechanics away from those players who don't want to deal with it, and at the same time offering GMs a way to customise their game to emphasise genre and feeling without actually having make up new rules.

 

Think of it like this. 6E1 and 6E2 remain the core rules. The GM's manual, if you like, both bullet-proof volumes of it. It's recommended to any hardcore Hero Fan.

But if you just want to play "Amazing Planetary Romances: Sky-Pirates of Zandar!" (Powered by Hero system ) all you need is the 128 page softbound version.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Similar arguments in regards to introductory tactics have been made for GURPS as well.

 

Essentially, you give new players a small box of LEGOs to get them used to a basic framework (stripped down and unambiguous abilities) while keeping the gigantic tub of Erector Set pieces (the complete rules) on hand for when they're ready to tinker around.

 

Exactly. For the Hero-for-noobs game I ran a couple of years ago, there were no example characters, no prebuilt archetypes. There weren't even any characteristics apart from BOD and STUN (Heresy!). Instead there was a couple of pages of handscribbled notes of 10 point blocks.

 

You want to build a tough fighter? Buy "Tough" + "Strong" + "Experienced Combatant". If you want to make a really tough fighter buy two lots of "Tough", 1 lot of "Strong" and 2 lots of "Experienced Combatant". Congrats. You've spent half your 100 point allotment - what do you want to do with the rest? Some background skills? How about "Mysterious drifter"? Or "Hardbitten ex-soldier"? Or "Skypirate"?

 

It really was Hero broken down into very easily digestible chunks. And it let people with no Hero experience at all put together entirely rules-legal Hero characters in about 30 minutes, over a beer.

 

cheers, Mark

[Chris Goodwin]

The gist of the conversation seems that the way 6E split up things was hard to parse, and kind of pain & perhaps it should be split a little more like this:

I'd do it more like this:

 

Players Book

1. Introduction

2. Playing The Game (Senses, Movement, Maneuvers, Damage, etc, blah & so on)

3. Sample Characters

4. Character Creation

  4a- Point Totals For Genres

  4b- Characteristics

  4c- Skills

  4d- Perks & Talents

  4e- Pre-Built Powers (a couple builds of each Power, with some variations for flavor, Choose Your Special Effect & Write It On The Sheet)

  4f- Complications

5. A Basic Setting for major genres

6. Appendix with Powers, Modifiers, Frameworks in brief form (equivalent to the list from the HERO System Resource Kit, with maybe a few pages of explanation, and for more info see the GM's book).

[Vondy]

MHI has a take on Urban Fantasy that is unique, and that makes it less useful to me. Also, the Author's political views are repugnant to me. It was the MHI RPG kickstarter that introduced me to his blog, and I won't support the hatred I have seen there. I don't mind that he has conservative views as I have supported other conservative authors. His views are just too out there for me. So I don't buy his books anymore. I did support the MHI KS with a decent pledge, but never again. I honestly wish we could have an Urban Fantasy Board that includes MHI discussion, and not a MHI Board that leaves many UF Discussions feeling like they don't have a home.

 

 

Leaving aside politics (and he is a whack-a-mole), Correia's writing is repugnant to me. Its awkward, sloppy, unnecessarily purple, and his sense of camp and humor is ham-fisted and badly timed. I simply could not finish his first book despite the fact that I am traditionally forgiving of author's early works.  

[Burrito Boy]

But if you just want to play "Amazing Planetary Romances: Sky-Pirates of Zandar!" (Powered by Hero system ) all you need is the 128 page softbound version.

 

cheers, Mark

I've been saving money for a trip to California but I'll use it all to back this when you put it on Kickstarter.