Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[zslane]

The 5th and 6th editions are examples, I feel, of overwhelming the (new) reader with too many options. It's as if every conceivable variation, option, and contingency was sought after and written into the rules, stuffing the margins and making every entry a good 5x longer than it needed to be. Most newcomers' eyes will just glaze over and they'll say "pass" to the whole system.

 

I look back fondly at earlier editions when the Define It Yourself elements like Limited Power, Physical Limitation, and Psychological Limitation were absolutely foundational, encouraging and empowering players to come up with their own limitations and disadvantages, using simple schema to determine point values. So rather than try to enumerate all the possible advantages, limitations, and adders that a power could possibly have, the core power definitions were left rather plain and left up to each player to figure out how to dress it up for their needs.

 

Sure, this meant that players had to do a little design work if they wanted something beyond a vanilla energy blast or gadget. But the fact that you came up with your own notion of "Only Works At Night" and your own value for it (-1/2) meant you spent zero time pouring through hundreds of pages of text looking for the "official" value for Only Works At Night as applied to whatever your power was. A little bit of DIY--and really only a little bit--went a long way towards keeping the rulebook size down and the amount of time consulting it to a minimum. And yet, lo and behold, the games flowed just fine with nary an argument over interpretation.

 

I think the Hero System needs to get back to a philosophy of specifying less, and stop with this misguided notion that the core books are actually doing readers/players any favors by stuffing themselves to the gills with examples and "official" sets/values for every conceivable dang thing. I never needed the rules to do all that thinking for me, and I tend to ignore them when they try to. What a waste.

[Ragitsu]

Part of the problem, as at least one other person noted, is that our collective attention span as a species has narrowed over the past decade/decade-and-a-half (coinciding with the growth of broadband internet, come to think of it).

 

This is reflected not only in tabletop gaming, but films and video games as well. Only literature has been spared...or largely so...because it attracts individuals that are both literate and patient. Also, pretty much everyone is wedded at their hip to some sort of cellular "smart" phone or tablet computer on a constant basis.

 

No wonder "light and breezy" RPGs are all the rage now.

[bigdamnhero]

I'm not suggesting changing the game at all. I'm just suggesting hiding the mechanics away from those players who don't want to deal with it, and at the same time offering GMs a way to customise their game to emphasise genre and feeling without actually having make up new rules.

Very well put - exactly this. And I agree about more Talents: I didn't have a problem with removing Instant Change as a Power, but it's common enough it would've made a perfect pre-built, mechanics-hidden Talent, if not in the core rules at least in the genre book.

 

I love the pre-build books: the HD packs for Champions Powers, the Equipment Guide, and the Grimoire have saved me more hours of work than I can count. But again, they all show the full mechanical build, which can be intimidating for people who are still learning how to read Herospeak.

 

I do like the idea of separate books for players & GMs: players don't need the full system - or at least not in as much detail.

 

Again: I like 6ed, because I *like* the crunch. But I also recognize that I'm a minority in an already-small niche market, and the more Hero targets people like me, the more their market shrinks, and that hurts us all.

[Markdoc]

I've been saving money for a trip to California but I'll use it all to back this when you put it on Kickstarter.

 

I actually ran this as a Con game in California, years ago (the actual game was called Captain Blood and the Sky Pirates of Zandar!   Everybody seemed to have a blast: I know I did.

 

Back then, I simply used full Hero system, just with prebuilt characters, but today, I'd simply skin the game so that it was simpler and more accessible - I think that would deliver more fun per hour (FPH) than the standard method. and that's important with a Con game where your time is limited.

 

cheers, Mark

[phoenix240]

Man, this thread has turned out to be a bummer. Everything I like in an rpg (flexbility, options, customization even skill lists) is not only passe and outdated its going to drive any new players I bring in fleeing into the night, bereft of SAN. 

[ghost-angel]

Part of the problem, as at least one other person noted, is that our collective attention span as a species has narrowed over the past decade/decade-and-a-half (coinciding with the growth of broadband internet, come to think of it).

 

This is reflected not only in tabletop gaming, but films and video games as well. Only literature has been spared...or largely so...because it attracts individuals that are both literate and patient. Also, pretty much everyone is wedded at their hip to some sort of cellular "smart" phone or tablet computer on a constant basis.

 

No wonder "light and breezy" RPGs are all the rage now.

 

Not buying that. They said the same thing when TV was introduced. And when Radio was introduced. And when mass printed books were introduced. Probably when paper was invented too.

 

Every technology makes us less attentive, or less patient, or less intelligent (yeah, fun fact: people who read aren't a tiny subset of people, more books are getting sold every year, it's a multi-billion dollar industry and growing - http://publishers.org/news/us-publishing-industry%E2%80%99s-annual-survey-reveals-28-billion-revenue-2014 ).

Social media has connected us more, isolated us less, allowed small groups to become medium groups. Allowed ideas to be shared more accurately and more quickly. Your market is now always global all the time.

 

As has also been pointed out: modern RPGs really aren't all that much more simplified than previous decades. We may be getting better at presentation, but they certainly aren't "light and breezy"; I just read the new Dresden Files RPG book, lots of crunch in there. Not Hero-numbers crunch, but definitely crunch.

 

Maybe if we stopped treating new comers to the RPG hobby like their favorite new RPG is some kind of fake, "you kids got it easy":, back-in-day uphill both ways belly aching we'd get a few more permanently in the door... (and I don't mean just here, I mean everywhere I turn in this hobby is some old dude yelling at the clouds about how games today suck.)

[Vondy]

Man, this thread has turned out to be a bummer. Everything I like in an rpg (flexbility, options, customization even skill lists) is not only passe and outdated its going to drive any new players I bring in fleeing into the night, bereft of SAN.

I'm an old player. 6e was just a bridge too far for me. There are good ideas in 6e, and it is rigorously consistent. I just find that it feels more like work than play, which was not my experience with previous systems. I use specific ideas from 6e, but more and more I'm returning to the BBB with those things I like from 5e and 6e ported backwardly in. And, keep in mind, I first played champions in 1984 and got really into it in 1990. I'm not a newbie. I've read every word of FRED and 6e. I'm a dedicated herophile.

[bluesguy]

Man, this thread has turned out to be a bummer. Everything I like in an rpg (flexbility, options, customization even skill lists) is not only passe and outdated its going to drive any new players I bring in fleeing into the night, bereft of SAN. 

 

Don't be bummed out.  Read "Experiences teaching people Hero Game System".  In the past four years I have taught eight people how to play Hero.  Of those eight, four have dropped from our group (well three we asked to stop playing with us - not a good match); one dropped due to time constraints.  No one dropped because of the game system.

[Joe Walsh]

Yeah, it's not all darkness and doom. I've taught HERO to friends who'd never played RPGs before, and they picked it up. Granted, it is harder to teach than the simplest RPGs, but it's not an insurmountable obstacle. But it is more of a challenge to teach it in a way that's suitable for the new player. Most people -- even really good friends -- aren't going to enjoy sitting still for more than a minute or two of explanation at a time. So it becomes a process of breaking it up into small, digestible chunks that can be taught, and which chunks can be used to do something fun so that they're more willing to learn the next chunk and get the next bit of fun.

 

As far as simplifying the game, my perspective is that I know a lot of folks who simply wouldn't read even a 32-page game manual. I mean, how many people ever read even the pamphlet-sized manuals they used to include with video games? People expect to learn as they play. So as GM, I try to provide that experience.

 

In terms of getting more GMs, though, yeah -- the simplified HERO may help. Although there seems to be a paucity of GMs in general, as always.

 

Probably our best hope to grow the game's audience would be to run games at FLGSes, conventions, and the like. Show people how fun it is. Show them what HERO has to offer that other games don't.

[ghost-angel]

I have the same experience with most game systems:

 

Those who want to learn a system, any system, will sit down and read the book and learn it.

 

Those who don't, but want to show up, play a character, roll some dice, and game, won't. Ever.

 

Doesn't matter if it's Hero or D&D Basic. Someone will have to make the character for them, let them fill in non-mechanical details, keep their sheet updated, and get input when it's time to add things; You generally only have to show these types of players where things are on the sheet once or twice, maybe help them with the dice here and there, mostly they simply do not care about mechanics. Simple or Complex.

 

Anecdote is not Data; but the experience tends to be pretty constant from my view: Some will learn the game engine because they want to, Some will learn only their character sheet. And the type of system is completely irrelevant.

[Ninja-Bear]

And some will play but wont learn the character sheet. "How many dice do I roll?"

[Vondy]

And, for the record, I still use Hero for most everything because I love it and its my game of choice.

 

I'm just not using 6e as my version of choice.

[zslane]

As far as simplifying the game, my perspective is that I know a lot of folks who simply wouldn't read even a 32-page game manual. I mean, how many people ever read even the pamphlet-sized manuals they used to include with video games? People expect to learn as they play.

This is a very cogent point.

 

Even I, someone who grew up with complex wargames before encountering D&D, had difficulty wrapping my head around RPGs until I was shown how to play. I learned to play RPGs through a group of kids that taught AD&D 1st ed. (with a smattering of D&D Basic Set to fill in the gaps because the 1st ed. DMG wasn't quite out yet when I started). But once I got a taste of it, I was hooked, and I devoured the rulebooks. I mean, every word of every page.

 

My point is that even smart people who might be inclined by nature to read all the rules won't at first if they don't grok the whole thing. I can honestly say that I would have had no appreciation for the Hero System had I not started with AD&D first. In fact, I might very well have rejected it for any number of reasons. But as a refutation of something inferior (as AD&D was back then), the Hero System shines like no other.

 

That's why I sort of encourage Hero GMs who want to attract new players who have little to no previous RPG experience to start with something else first, D&D or maybe Pathfinder, so that when they are "graduated" to the Hero System, they are ready for all it has to offer, as well as the intellectual foundation to absorb its concepts and the desire to use them to their fullest.

[phoenix240]

I was being a little cheeky. This thread isn't that bad. The rpg.net version, on the other hand...

[Zephrosyne]

Vondy, on 16 Mar 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

Leaving aside politics (and he is a whack-a-mole), Correia's writing is repugnant to me. Its awkward, sloppy, unnecessarily purple, and his sense of camp and humor is ham-fisted and badly timed. I simply could not finish his first book despite the fact that I am traditionally forgiving of author's early works.  

I actually read his first two Monster Hunter novels.  They actually didn't bother me much.  I think that his political ideology is reflected a bit in his writing but I don't really care: I'm reading his book, not dating him.  He does keep things moving and he writes action scenes better than a lot of other writers.  However, he seems to really like guns in his writing.  It is almost jarring the level of detail firearms and things related to firearms get when compared to other story elements or subjects in his books.

[Zephrosyne]

ghost-angel, on 17 Mar 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:ghost-angel, on 17 Mar 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

I have the same experience with most game systems:

 

Those who want to learn a system, any system, will sit down and read the book and learn it.

 

Those who don't, but want to show up, play a character, roll some dice, and game, won't. Ever.

 

Doesn't matter if it's Hero or D&D Basic. Someone will have to make the character for them, let them fill in non-mechanical details, keep their sheet updated, and get input when it's time to add things; You generally only have to show these types of players where things are on the sheet once or twice, maybe help them with the dice here and there, mostly they simply do not care about mechanics. Simple or Complex.

 

Anecdote is not Data; but the experience tends to be pretty constant from my view: Some will learn the game engine because they want to, Some will learn only their character sheet. And the type of system is completely irrelevant.

This is so true from my experience.  I have had players that absolutely will not read anything.  Hell, I give a handout before every campaign I run detailing the setting and any applicable house rules and some of my players barely read that.  I ran a D&D 3.5 campaign several years back and had a player that would read virtually nothing.  He just wanted to get his dice and go.  All he ever wanted was his "rolling chance."  However, to his credit, he did not whine when his refusal to read the rules and my handout bit him in the ass.  He wasn't much of a roleplayer (inexperienced) but he was fun and brought some very interesting elements to the table.  In fact, I probably got the highest compliment I have ever received in all of my years of gming from him.  His fighter ended up dying and apparently he decided he wanted a character with some "mojo."  Therefore on his own he purchased Complete Arcane and read it.  We were all in shock!  He actually wanted to read more about the new class he chose (the Warlock) to make better choices and be a better player.  I still contend that D&D is no easier than Hero System.  It has a lot more moving parts to look up and try to coordinate (the feats, the spells, the class features, etc.).  It is just a tad easier to gm (as far as set up) because you have a lot of the work done for you since it is a matter of picking things from a menu (a potentially lengthy menu) instead of making them yourself.  Furthermore, at higher levels, with all the modifiers and number crunching, I think the actual gameplay is a bit more complex than Hero.  Yet, Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder are the big kids on the block.

[massey]

I actually read his first two Monster Hunter novels.  They actually didn't bother me much.  I think that his political ideology is reflected a bit in his writing but I don't really care: I'm reading his book, not dating him.  He does keep things moving and he writes action scenes better than a lot of other writers.  However, he seems to really like guns in his writing.  It is almost jarring the level of detail firearms and things related to firearms get when compared to other story elements or subjects in his books.

 

I agree with this.  I don't mind guns, I own several of them.  But the level of detail he went into with them was far beyond my level of expertise.  Eventually I just started skimming over the gun description parts of the book.  It's no different than if somebody is really into cars, or computers, or some other technical subject.  Go into too much detail and you lose most of your audience.

[massey]

This is so true from my experience.  I have had players that absolutely will not read anything.  Hell, I give a handout before every campaign I run detailing the setting and any applicable house rules and some of my players barely read that.  I ran a D&D 3.5 campaign several years back and had a player that would read virtually nothing.  He just wanted to get his dice and go.  All he ever wanted was his "rolling chance."  However, to his credit, he did not whine when his refusal to read the rules and my handout bit him in the ass.  He wasn't much of a roleplayer (inexperienced) but he was fun and brought some very interesting elements to the table.  In fact, I probably got the highest compliment I have ever received in all of my years of gming from him.  His fighter ended up dying and apparently he decided he wanted a character with some "mojo."  Therefore on his own he purchased Complete Arcane and read it.  We were all in shock!  He actually wanted to read more about the new class he chose (the Warlock) to make better choices and be a better player.  I still contend that D&D is no easier than Hero System.  It has a lot more moving parts to look up and try to coordinate (the feats, the spells, the class features, etc.).  It is just a tad easier to gm (as far as set up) because you have a lot of the work done for you since it is a matter of picking things from a menu (a potentially lengthy menu) instead of making them yourself.  Furthermore, at higher levels, with all the modifiers and number crunching, I think the actual gameplay is a bit more complex than Hero.  Yet, Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder are the big kids on the block.

 

D&D and Pathfinder have better presentation.  They're also written to appeal to people who are playing their first RPG.  I can hand the Pathfinder book to somebody, and they flip through the character section until they find what they want to play.  "Oh, I want to be a wizard!"  And then they read the wizard section, and it tells them to pick X number of spells, and they go to the spell section, etc.  

 

Once you've got a grasp on the whole system, I think Hero is less complicated.  But until that point, Hero is daunting.

[sureshot73]

I was being a little cheeky. This thread isn't that bad. The rpg.net version, on the other hand...

 

I'm part of that thread and you don't know what your talking about. Is it critical about some elements of the Hero System of course. That foes not make it a bad thread. If you wanted a echo chamber style thread on rpg.net well your not going to get it.

[sureshot73]

I completely disagree with Pathfinder and Hero System being very similar in complexity. I can the core Pathfinder to a gamer and by looking at the classes get a idea of what they want. Unless you have someone familiar or at least has Fantasy Hero available has to build everything from scratch. Easy enough for a veteran of course. Not so much a beginner. I'm not saying Pathfinder is rules light by any means. It's somewhat annoying that similar bonuses don't stack with each other. Nowhere near as much math imo then the Hero System. 

 

It's no so much not wanting to read material. It's the sheer amount of material. The size of 6E did no favor to gaining new bloodin the hobby. Already some were unwilling to read one large book with 5E. Two large books. Complexity and crunchiness for the sake of it was and never will be a selling point. Think about it someone offers you the Fate Core, Savage worlds Core and the 6E core. Being objective and new to the hobby would you really want to read two big books that look and read like school textbooks. Versus the smaller ones that look and read more like rpgs. It's up to Hero Games and other rpg companies to cater to what the fans want. Which so far leans more to rules light and less crucnhy. 

[phoenix240]

I'm part of that thread and you don't know what your talking about That foes not make it a bad thread. If you wanted a echo chamber style thread on rpg.net well your not going to get it.

 

Yes I do. I'm talking about the similar thread on rpg.net and my opinion of it. I thought I was pretty clear about that. I didn't say it was a "bad thread" (whatever that means) I said I found it to be a downer. I have a different opinion of the mood there than you do. 

 

As for the echo chamber comment, please dial back the attitude a little. I don't agree with you about the mood of the thread I didn't personally insult you. Stuff like this is the reason I only lurk over there.

 

This thread hasn't been an "echo chamber" either but its been less oppressive, negative and angry. Which is fairly typical of rpg.net. 

 

IMO

 

That's why I don't even lurk that much there these days. 

 

And if anyone is interested in forming their own opinion about the sister thread I'm sure they can look for themselves. I provided a link. 

[bigdamnhero]

Not buying that. They said the same thing when TV was introduced. And when Radio was introduced. And when mass printed books were introduced. Probably when paper was invented too.

 

Every technology makes us less attentive, or less patient, or less intelligent (yeah, fun fact: people who read aren't a tiny subset of people, more books are getting sold every year, it's a multi-billion dollar industry and growing - http://publishers.org/news/us-publishing-industry%E2%80%99s-annual-survey-reveals-28-billion-revenue-2014 ).

To be fair, there has been some research showing that our current obsession with "multitasking" is essentially training us to have short attention spans. It's not a social media problem per se, but the constant ready accessibility of social media has probably contributed to it. In other words, the problem isn't that tweets/texts/etc are short; the problem is that partly because they're so short, we feel like we can read and send them while we're doing other things. Eventually, the constant switching between different things trains us to expect constant variety, and can make it harder for us to focus on things that require more significant concentrated attention.

I don't know how much that translates to the current preference for shorter/lighter RPGs (excepting D&D/Pathfinder, which always get an exception for some reason), but it's an interesting proposition.

 

Maybe if we stopped treating new comers to the RPG hobby like their favorite new RPG is some kind of fake, "you kids got it easy":, back-in-day uphill both ways belly aching we'd get a few more permanently in the door... (and I don't mean just here, I mean everywhere I turn in this hobby is some old dude yelling at the clouds about how games today suck.)

Agreed.

 

 

I've taught HERO to friends who'd never played RPGs before, and they picked it up.

...

Probably our best hope to grow the game's audience would be to run games at FLGSes, conventions, and the like. Show people how fun it is. Show them what HERO has to offer that other games don't.

I've had really good luck with this at local conventions/game days. At least once per con, I have someone who's never played Hero before, and at least once a year I have someone who's never RPGd before. As long as you give them a simplified character sheet, tell them "Don't sweat the rules too much, just focus on the story," and are prepared to do a little hand-holding, it's never been a problem.

 

Those who want to learn a system, any system, will sit down and read the book and learn it.

 

Those who don't, but want to show up, play a character, roll some dice, and game, won't. Ever.

Well yes, there are players like that, but I don't think it's a simple binary setting. A lot of players are willing to sit down and read the 50 page (or however long) cliffnotes version of FATE. The number of people willing to sit down and read the 200 page Savage Worlds core book is going to be less than that. The number of people willing to sit down and read 700+ pages of 6ed? Let's face it, that's going to be significantly less.

 

Even I, someone who grew up with complex wargames before encountering D&D, had difficulty wrapping my head around RPGs until I was shown how to play. I learned to play RPGs through a group of kids that taught AD&D 1st ed. (with a smattering of D&D Basic Set to fill in the gaps because the 1st ed. DMG wasn't quite out yet when I started). But once I got a taste of it, I was hooked, and I devoured the rulebooks. I mean, every word of every page.

I read a great blog post last year (can't remember where) on this topic, arguing that the biggest limiting factor to bringing new players into RPGs is that 90% of the time you need someone who already knows the rules to bring you in. Because our rulebooks are structured as reference manuals, it's difficult to learn how to play just from reading them, and even harder to learn how to GM. And since there are even fewer GMs than there are players, we have inadvertently created a gatekeeper system that makes it harder to grow the hobby.

 

That's why I sort of encourage Hero GMs who want to attract new players who have little to no previous RPG experience to start with something else first, D&D or maybe Pathfinder, so that when they are "graduated" to the Hero System, they are ready for all it has to offer, as well as the intellectual foundation to absorb its concepts and the desire to use them to their fullest.

I've had pretty good experience teaching Hero to new players, again as long as you're willing to simplify and do a lot of the heavy lifting. It helps to give them a pre-made character rather than starting them off with all the wonderful complexity that is Hero chargen. Heck, I have a couple players in my group who have now been playing Hero for years and I'm *still* basically doing their character builds for them. (If that's the price I have to pay to get to run Hero games, then I consider it well worth it!)

 

D&D and Pathfinder have better presentation.  They're also written to appeal to people who are playing their first RPG.  I can hand the Pathfinder book to somebody, and they flip through the character section until they find what they want to play.  "Oh, I want to be a wizard!"  And then they read the wizard section, and it tells them to pick X number of spells, and they go to the spell section, etc.

Yeah, as much as I hate class/level based systems, the idea of "pick a race, now pick a class" does seem to be significantly easier for new players to wrap their heads around than Hero's blank-slate approach. Plus let's face it: D&D can be as complex as it wants because it's frickin D&D. (And so is Pathfinder, really.) It's the brand, the trope-namer, the granddaddy, the game everyone else is playing. People are willing to accept things in D&D that they will simply never put up with from other RPGs. It just is that way.

[Vondy]

I agree with this. I don't mind guns, I own several of them. But the level of detail he went into with them was far beyond my level of expertise. Eventually I just started skimming over the gun description parts of the book. It's no different than if somebody is really into cars, or computers, or some other technical subject. Go into too much detail and you lose most of your audience.

Personally, I like guns. I'm a casual gun bunny. He did get carried away, IMO. But, my criticism had almost nothing to do with his politics. Those are just an odd quirk. I couldn't finish it because I felt it was just badly written and overly purple. In other words, I found his prose and narrative style painful to read.

[phoenix240]

Fourth Edition Fantasy Hero did a pretty good emulating the Pick a class, pick a race" character building found in many fantasy games with racial and professional package deals, IMO. My players seemed tp think so too. 

[phoenix240]

To be fair, there has been some research showing that our current obsession with "multitasking" is essentially training us to have short attention spans. It's not a social media problem per se, but the constant ready accessibility of social media has probably contributed to it. In other words, the problem isn't that tweets/texts/etc are short; the problem is that partly because they're so short, we feel like we can read and send them while we're doing other things. Eventually, the constant switching between different things trains us to expect constant variety, and can make it harder for us to focus on things that require more significant concentrated attention.

I don't know how much that translates to the current preference for shorter/lighter RPGs (excepting D&D/Pathfinder, which always get an exception for some reason), but it's an interesting proposition.

 

Agreed.

 

 

I've had really good luck with this at local conventions/game days. At least once per con, I have someone who's never played Hero before, and at least once a year I have someone who's never RPGd before. As long as you give them a simplified character sheet, tell them "Don't sweat the rules too much, just focus on the story," and are prepared to do a little hand-holding, it's never been a problem.

 

Well yes, there are players like that, but I don't think it's a simple binary setting. A lot of players are willing to sit down and read the 50 page (or however long) cliffnotes version of FATE. The number of people willing to sit down and read the 200 page Savage Worlds core book is going to be less than that. The number of people willing to sit down and read 700+ pages of 6ed? Let's face it, that's going to be significantly less.

 

I read a great blog post last year (can't remember where) on this topic, arguing that the biggest limiting factor to bringing new players into RPGs is that 90% of the time you need someone who already knows the rules to bring you in. Because our rulebooks are structured as reference manuals, it's difficult to learn how to play just from reading them, and even harder to learn how to GM. And since there are even fewer GMs than there are players, we have inadvertently created a gatekeeper system that makes it harder to grow the hobby.

 

I've had pretty good experience teaching Hero to new players, again as long as you're willing to simplify and do a lot of the heavy lifting. It helps to give them a pre-made character rather than starting them off with all the wonderful complexity that is Hero chargen. Heck, I have a couple players in my group who have now been playing Hero for years and I'm *still* basically doing their character builds for them. (If that's the price I have to pay to get to run Hero games, then I consider it well worth it!)

 

Yeah, as much as I hate class/level based systems, the idea of "pick a race, now pick a class" does seem to be significantly easier for new players to wrap their heads around than Hero's blank-slate approach. Plus let's face it: D&D can be as complex as it wants because it's frickin D&D. (And so is Pathfinder, really.) It's the brand, the trope-namer, the granddaddy, the game everyone else is playing. People are willing to accept things in D&D that they will simply never put up with from other RPGs. It just is that way.

And there's much more innate familiarity in the gamng world with d20/DnD derived games less starting from 0.