Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Vondy]

Glad they Make Coke Zero. I dislike Diet Coke. It's not as bad as diet Pepsi, but still not my favorite. So Now I Drink Coke Zero and I am happy with the taste of my sugar free soda.

 

Word.

[phoenix240]

I keep hearing how players only like lite crunch free games, but I would point out that Pathfinder is a VERY High crunch game. It's always in the top 5 (Top 2) RPG sellers, next to D&D. So I have a real hard time buying that players won't learn a complicated game. Also unlike Pathfinder and D&D, Hero's difficulty is mostly "Frontloaded" in Character generation. Once characters are built the game is actually fairly simple to play. The systems are very consistant thoughtout the ruleset.

 

I can't put total stock in the idea that in "today's market" only so called Rules Light games can find any success given that current some of the most successful games are pretty darn crunchy. Pathfinder. DnD/d20, Exalted, GURPS to name a few. Presentation seems to matter most. I've come to the conclusion that when it comes to crunch perception has allot to do with it. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I run into so few GURPS players, in real life, online, and at conventions that I suspect its sales are largely due to an incredibly dedicated core that buys everything that comes out, and GURPS puts a lot of stuff out.  So less broad and more deep support.

[bigdamnhero]

I felt that way about Hero through most of 5ed...

[zslane]

To my mind, the problem with the Fire Hose power is two-fold: it contains details a newbie doesn't need to know about (the modifier values primarily), and it is way over-designed. Power write-ups like that--which infect every product I've seen in the last dozen-plus years, btw--would scare any newcomer off, and for good reason IMO.

 

There has been a trend, I've noticed, in the post-4th ed. era to try and model every single minute aspect of a power. Perhaps it isn't the Hero System that is too detailed and crunchy, it is the players who over-design/over-specify their characters' abilities that are simply going too far with the system. It's like how computers make it possible to create music with a different note every millisecond, but who would want to listen to that?

 

I think it is possible to present characters that are newbie-friendly, but it starts by not trying to model all the complexities of things like water or fire or electricity. I mean, the whole point of Special Effects is to abstract away all those details so that they don't have to be accounted for by limitations and advantages and time-consuming mechanics. We seem to have overly embraced the whole "You Don't Get Something For Nothing," concept and created a situation in which the fact that fire makes things hot is a Something that should be accounted for and paid for with points rather than just being a Special Effect of fire.

 

I kind of feel that this OCD-like approach to character write-ups has made the system appear virtually impossible to learn or use by today's casual RPGer.

[Tasha]

To my mind, the problem with the Fire Hose power is two-fold: it contains details a newbie doesn't need to know about (the modifier values primarily), and it is way over-designed. Power write-ups like that--which infect every product I've seen in the last dozen-plus years, btw--would scare any newcomer off, and for good reason IMO.

 

There has been a trend, I've noticed, in the post-4th ed. era to try and model every single minute aspect of a power. Perhaps it isn't the Hero System that is too detailed and crunchy, it is the players who over-design/over-specify their characters' abilities that are simply going too far with the system. It's like how computers make it possible to create music with a different note every millisecond, but who would want to listen to that?

 

I think it is possible to present characters that are newbie-friendly, but it starts by not trying to model all the complexities of things like water or fire or electricity. I mean, the whole point of Special Effects is to abstract away all those details so that they don't have to be accounted for by limitations and advantages and time-consuming mechanics. We seem to have overly embraced the whole "You Don't Get Something For Nothing," concept and created a situation in which the fact that fire makes things hot is a Something that should be accounted for and paid for with points rather than just being a Special Effect of fire.

 

I kind of feel that this OCD-like approach to character write-ups has made the system appear virtually impossible to learn or use by today's casual RPGer.

 

I ran a Game where I wrote nearly every character in the game. I had some very clever builds (I thought). I quickly figured out that I was overcomplicating the PC's. So I ended up going back and redesigning every character to simplify. Once I did that, all of the players started to grok their characters abilities better. So creating complex characters is something that we all should be watching out for when we build new PCs esp for new players.

[phoenix240]

I run into so few GURPS players, in real life, online, and at conventions that I suspect its sales are largely due to an incredibly dedicated core that buys everything that comes out, and GURPS puts a lot of stuff out.  So less broad and more deep support.

 

 Yep There's so little data available about this topic so we have to mostly rely on anecdotal evidence and personal observation. 

[ghost-angel]

To my mind, the problem with the Fire Hose power is two-fold: it contains details a newbie doesn't need to know about (the modifier values primarily), and it is way over-designed. Power write-ups like that--which infect every product I've seen in the last dozen-plus years, btw--would scare any newcomer off, and for good reason IMO.

 

There has been a trend, I've noticed, in the post-4th ed. era to try and model every single minute aspect of a power. Perhaps it isn't the Hero System that is too detailed and crunchy, it is the players who over-design/over-specify their characters' abilities that are simply going too far with the system. It's like how computers make it possible to create music with a different note every millisecond, but who would want to listen to that?

 

I think it is possible to present characters that are newbie-friendly, but it starts by not trying to model all the complexities of things like water or fire or electricity. I mean, the whole point of Special Effects is to abstract away all those details so that they don't have to be accounted for by limitations and advantages and time-consuming mechanics. We seem to have overly embraced the whole "You Don't Get Something For Nothing," concept and created a situation in which the fact that fire makes things hot is a Something that should be accounted for and paid for with points rather than just being a Special Effect of fire.

 

I kind of feel that this OCD-like approach to character write-ups has made the system appear virtually impossible to learn or use by today's casual RPGer.

RE music with a different note every millisecond: It's called Extratone and starts at 1000BPM and goes up from there (no, the human ear cannot discern individual notes at that speed, yes the people who listen to this regularly are strange, but they are happy). [here - warning, it's not actually that pleasant to listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQ4hKr1IZI ]

 

And I picked an over-built power on purpose to demonstrate what happens to how we present things in an extreme situation. Under normal circumstances it doesn't nearly as bad, but cleaning up the presentation even a little bit can go a long way to making the style of Hero's crunch look easy to deal with:

 

3 Elements:

Power + Level

Advantages

Limitations

 

Long time players will naturally see it broken down that way, if you read through the book it kind of splits out that way (but not entirely as many Modifiers exist next to Power write-ups themselves if they're specific to only that Power). But when every publication writes it down, it's just a block of letters with no easily recognized organization unless you're already familiar with the system.

 

The point is not to argue over how overly detailed are or aren't; There are quite a few Hero products that aren't over built (in fact, over building is something I see more in players than the books, to be honest); But it's equally poorly displayed.

 

With proper display you can make even the most convoluted build digestible, and that's the point I was going for.

[Nolgroth]

To my mind, the problem with the Fire Hose power is two-fold: it contains details a newbie doesn't need to know about (the modifier values primarily), and it is way over-designed. Power write-ups like that--which infect every product I've seen in the last dozen-plus years, btw--would scare any newcomer off, and for good reason IMO.

 

 

Yet how would a player know how to apply the Double Knockback and Cumulative effects to his power? I have a lot of problems with that particular power write-up, but Hero powers almost have to be designed with that complexity because of all the nuance to them. That particular power write-up has some oddities to it (Double Knockback listed separately three times instead of calling it Double Knockback (x8) or something to simplify it, Fire Powers (?), two of the three Limitations). It will work as an example though. Two things you can remove from the write-up are END and Range modifiers. You can summarize those in the title block. You also could remove the modifier values themselves from something the player sees. It would simplify it a bit.

 

Somewhere though, a complete write-up has to be available. Something that breaks down the costs so that Adjustment powers can be properly applied.

 

In the meantime, let's look at our example from earlier. Is this substantially easier to read? Would making it look more like a D&D Power Card work better? This has been something that I have looked at many times but never found the exact fit between utility and attractiveness.

 

Just fill it with the Fire Hose

Dispel 4d6 [ Active Cost: 84, Real Cost: 28, END/Charges Cost: 0/0, Range: 840m ]

Advantages: Area Of Effect (4m Radius) • Does Knockback • Increased Knockback (x8) • Fire Powers • Cumulative up 96 Dispel points • Autofire (5 shots)

Limitations: Must be standing by the pool to change it • Reduced By Range • Incantations

[bigdamnhero]

Maybe builds that are aimed at newbies just don't need all those Advantages and Limitations? If you're running an introductory game (or writing an introductory module), keep the builds simple.

 

Also, for the convention/demo games I write, I deliberately don't list all the Limitations on the character sheet. I know that all Magnetica's Powers or Magnetism are bought with Unified Power, and if she gets hit with an Adjustment Power I will handle it accordingly and tell the player "This affects all your powers." (Experienced players will ask: "Expanded Effect of Unified Power?" But putting it on the sheet just raises questions. That's more problematic in published material, of course.

[Lucius]

Nor will their be a shift from rules light and less crunchy. To opposite. That's like saying we have IPADs but let's bring back computers the size of a room.

Saying it's like that doesn't make it like that. It's not like that, and it remains unlike it even when you say it is.

 

With all due respect complexity and crunchiness for the sake of it is really not a selling point.

Granted that Hero is more complex than it needs to be, the complexity is not "for the sake of it." 

 

The D&D rules are every bit as complicated as Hero.

I keep hearing how players only like lite crunch free games, but I would point out that Pathfinder is a VERY High crunch game. It's always in the top 5 (Top 2) RPG sellers, next to D&D. So I have a real hard time buying that players won't learn a complicated game. Also unlike Pathfinder and D&D, Hero's difficulty is mostly "Frontloaded" in Character generation. Once characters are built the game is actually fairly simple to play. The systems are very consistant thoughtout the ruleset.

Exactly. If being complicated were such a problem, D&D would not own 99% of the market.

 

Which doesn't mean I don't still think Hero is more complicated than it needs to be.

 

On a very basic level, the UI for the book is difficult to parse.

 

the biggest thing about Hero is How Stuff Is Built; and to show how it's built, you need to show all the pieces in a way that can be easily read - and not just by people who have been reading Powers for a few decades, but especially new players.

 

 

I grabbed the following from Lucius' list of various water power builds in the Drinking Water thread as an exmaple;

 

Look at this mess:

Just fill it with the Fire Hose: (Total: 84 Active Cost, 28 Real Cost) Dispel 4d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (84 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 28)

 

This is a Hero Designer display which is better than the books in that listed AP & RP twice it at least puts one of them at the start of the build, the books rarely (if ever) do something so helpful. Heck most of the Character builds (all? Didn't actually look at every book just now) don't even list Active Points, just Real Points/Cost; totally useless for when Adjustment Powers come into play.

I tend to make ALL powers I build in Hero Designer "Compound Powers" even if there is only one Power in the build, precisely because it enables me to copy and paste such a helpful version of the power. Otherwise it looks like this:

 

Just Fill it with the Fire Hose: Dispel 4d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (72 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

As for making things "user friendly" for the players, I try to explain how the power works in Notes, and in the export, sometimes cut out everything BUT the Name and the Notes. But trying to copy and paste directly from Hero Designer into a post here, the Notes aren't carried. 

 

Speaking of carrying notes, I didn't care for Extratone, but it still beats some things I hear on the popular radio.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

So Now I Drink Coke Zero and I am happy with the taste of my sugar free soda.

And I'm sharing a Coke Zero with my: Palindromedary

[ghost-angel]

Maybe builds that are aimed at newbies just don't need all those Advantages and Limitations? If you're running an introductory game (or writing an introductory module), keep the builds simple.

 

Also, for the convention/demo games I write, I deliberately don't list all the Limitations on the character sheet. I know that all Magnetica's Powers or Magnetism are bought with Unified Power, and if she gets hit with an Adjustment Power I will handle it accordingly and tell the player "This affects all your powers." (Experienced players will ask: "Expanded Effect of Unified Power?" But putting it on the sheet just raises questions. That's more problematic in published material, of course.

 

This works if you're Just aiming for new players.

 

But I think the entire thing, top to bottom, needs a cleanup in display. Why would I graduate from Easy To Read to Word Salad? I wouldn't.

 

No, we need to strip down to the start How We View Things, we do not need to remake how it's built, Hero is about seeing the engine running the car. Make it that way from top to bottom and your Introductory and Standard rules don't even need to look different, the difference will only be in Scope & Options, not Builds & Display.

 

It's an easier transition if you don't suddenly have to relearn how to read a Power Build.

 

So no, I don't think we should be stripping out the List (and cost) of Advantages & Limitations from a build to get new gamers in; I think we need to present them in a fashion that people can actually quickly grasp.

[Lucius]

 

I've said this before, but some things bear repeating.

 

With Hero I have about 75 Powers, about that many Skills, about 20 or 25 Talents, all in one book, out of which I can build anything I need.

 

But some people's idea of "simpler" is a few thousand spells, feats, skills, features, whatever, spread through a dozen books, that still won't let you build everything you can build in Hero.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm sure I have built thousands of taglines using palindromedaries

[bigdamnhero]

This works if you're Just aiming for new players.

I don't want to just aim for new players; but I would like to see something that isn't aimed at those of us who've been playing for 20+ years.

 

So no, I don't think we should be stripping out the List (and cost) of Advantages & Limitations from a build to get new gamers in; I think we need to present them in a fashion that people can actually quickly grasp.

Agreed. I'm suggesting stripping Advs & Lims from the system/book. I'm just saying if you're making something targeted at new players (see above), it's a good idea to keep the builds simple, maybe 1-2 Modifiers per Power tops.

 

I've said this before, but some things bear repeating.

 

With Hero I have about 75 Powers, about that many Skills, about 20 or 25 Talents, all in one book, out of which I can build anything I need.

 

But some people's idea of "simpler" is a few thousand spells, feats, skills, features, whatever, spread through a dozen books, that still won't let you build everything you can build in Hero.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm sure I have built thousands of taglines using palindromedaries

Amen!

[zslane]

If I create a blaster with a Napalm Blast power and write it as:

 

Napalm Blast: 10d6 Energy Blast (5 END)

 

I'm pretty sure a new player will learn most of what they need to in order to play the game from powers like that. Will they learn how to build complex characters? No, but most new players won't be in a position to even try building complex characters. They have enough on their plate just managing their Phases, their END, and their STUN/BODY. Writing up the Napalm Blast such that it accounts for its area dispersion, continuous burning, and so on may be more "authentic" but also way more than a newbie should worry or care about.

 

I honestly believe that one of the reasons Champions was so easy to learn back in the early 1980s is that the example character designs were much simpler overall. We really used those early examples to help grasp the system. I think it is entirely reasonable that an Intro product aimed at attracting (and holding onto) newbies should make an effort to present a stripped down set of characters to start with. The game is plenty complicated enough without weighing players down with powers, modifiers, and complications that will just make the character writeups look like programming code.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I kind of feel that this OCD-like approach to character write-ups has made the system appear virtually impossible to learn or use by today's casual RPGer.

 

 

I agree, and most of the time nobody has to know a thing about this level of complexity.  For anything not directly and specifically involved in combat, it doesn't even matter what the numbers are.  If you think you need an active cost (for dispel, etc), just estimate it.  Its fun to figure out builds like flashlight and Zippo lighter, but in reality you don't need a build.

 

But some people's idea of "simpler" is a few thousand spells, feats, skills, features, whatever, spread through a dozen books, that still won't let you build everything you can build in Hero.

 

 

Agree again.  Personally, I think the Hero system basic rules should be the huge books, but the genre books can have stuff like "Instant Change" built as a talent-type power: here's what it does and costs.  That way you're not actually putting different rules in different games, just short-form applications.

[Nolgroth]

If I create a blaster with a Napalm Blast power and write it as:

 

Napalm Blast: 10d6 Energy Blast (5 END)

 

 

I really don't think that does a new player a service. Even D&D spells have more information to them than that. At the absolute minimum, it should add Range to the mix. In the short-term, I suppose an absolute minimalist presentation would work, but there also has to be a balance between the two. Maybe a basic, no frills Champions character could have Napalm Blast: 10d6 Blast vs ED (5 END, Range 500 m) but there are so many other genres besides Champions/Super Heroes and things like Incantations or Requires a Computer Programming roll are going to have to be referenced for ease of game play. I think the trick is not to be overly complicated, but also not to insult the intelligence of the new player or, worse, outright hide the intricacies from them. Provide them a quick reference, absolutely, but the Hero System is what it is. We shouldn't cloak that from new players, just make it easier to learn as they go.

 

I have an idea about that. It might be stupid, but I was inspired by some flash cards that my wife is using to learn the Latin names for plants that her store sells. It is going to take some work, so more on that later.

[Lucius]

If I create a blaster with a Napalm Blast power and write it as:

 

Napalm Blast: 10d6 Energy Blast (5 END)

 

I'm pretty sure a new player will learn most of what they need to in order to play the game from powers like that. Will they learn how to build complex characters? No, but most new players won't be in a position to even try building complex characters. They have enough on their plate just managing their Phases, their END, and their STUN/BODY. Writing up the Napalm Blast such that it accounts for its area dispersion, continuous burning, and so on may be more "authentic" but also way more than a newbie should worry or care about.

I dunno. I think some players, if it's called "napalm" will expect it to act like napalm. And be disappointed if it doesn't. Or if you intend to give them those Advantages for free, the player sitting next to them might object if they paid as much for an attack that doesn't have the same extras.

 

But it's entirely possible I overestimate the odds of either of those issues. And at a certain point, you do have to say "close enough, the rest is special effects and judgement calls."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary special effect.

[zslane]

...there are so many other genres besides Champions/Super Heroes...

Not on my planet. ;-)

[Nolgroth]

Not on my planet. ;-)

 

Best response evah. 

[Markdoc]

Heh. My wife complains (frequently) that Pathfinder is both more complicated than Hero system and less logical to boot.

She's right: but the difference between Pathfinder and Hero is not in the level of complexity, per se, but the level of accessibility and the level of support (which is part of the accessibility package, to be honest).

 

To make an effective Pathfinder character, you need access to multiple books, and you need to plot your way though multiple levels so that all your prerequisites line up. I can easily spend an entire evening on a relatively straightforward Pathfinder build and complex builds might take several evenings. The catch is, though that you don't need to do that. You can pick your stat.s a class and a few feats, buy some gear and you are ready to go in an hour or less. The price you might pay for that approach is frustration down the line when you discover that your PC can't do what you had intended, but that price only becomes apparent months in, when you are already invested in the character and in the game and you have already learned the basics of the system. You'll do better next time ...

 

With Hero that complexity is right up in your face, with your very first character. If you can get over that hump, it's actually easier thereafter, but there is no denying that the hump (more like a wall, to be honest) is there. There have been attempts to reduce the size of the hump, like Sidekick, but nothing that has really simplified things down to the "pick up and play" level. Secondarily, sidekick simplified character gen, but there is no equivalent support for the novice GM who just wants to run a game for his friends. I am not trying to trivialize the amount of work (or the resources) required to provide support, but recruiting novice players is only half the struggle. Half is better than nothing, but still ....

 

cheers, Mark

[Ragitsu]

Humps build character.

 

Just ask a certain someone here.

[Lucius]

 

Would you object to me crossposting this on the RPG thread?

 

Heh. My wife complains (frequently) that Pathfinder is both more complicated than Hero system and less logical to boot.

She's right: but the difference between Pathfinder and Hero is not in the level of complexity, per se, but the level of accessibility and the level of support (which is part of the accessibility package, to be honest).

 

To make an effective Pathfinder character, you need access to multiple books, and you need to plot your way though multiple levels so that all your prerequisites line up. I can easily spend an entire evening on a relatively straightforward Pathfinder build and complex builds might take several evenings. The catch is, though that you don't need to do that. You can pick your stat.s a class and a few feats, buy some gear and you are ready to go in an hour or less. The price you might pay for that approach is frustration down the line when you discover that your PC can't do what you had intended, but that price only becomes apparent months in, when you are already invested in the character and in the game and you have already learned the basics of the system. You'll do better next time ...

 

With Hero that complexity is right up in your face, with your very first character. If you can get over that hump, it's actually easier thereafter, but there is no denying that the hump (more like a wall, to be honest) is there. There have been attempts to reduce the size of the hump, like Sidekick, but nothing that has really simplified things down to the "pick up and play" level. Secondarily, sidekick simplified character gen, but there is no equivalent support for the novice GM who just wants to run a game for his friends. I am not trying to trivialize the amount of work (or the resources) required to provide support, but recruiting novice players is only half the struggle. Half is better than nothing, but still ....

 

cheers, Mark

Lucius Alexander

 

Thinking of putting a palindromedary on a diet

[Nolgroth]

Hero also requires you to know the system or at least be able to research the little Advantages/Limitations that make up a power build. For example Continuous/Constant; it seems pretty obvious but there are a lot of clauses that go along with the obvious meaning. You have to pay END every phase and if you are knocked unconscious, the power turns off. Of course, then there are exceptions to that (0 END powers or Persistent/Uncontrolled powers). Work and fatigue got in the way of me working on an idea. I literally want to build power flash cards that have, inasmuch as possible, straight English descriptions of what the power and power modifiers do on one side and the actual "long form" power build on the other. I wouldn't really have a test market, but I wonder if it wouldn't be an informal resource.

 

After work today, I will come up with a working example.

[Markdoc]

Would you object to me crossposting this on the RPG thread?

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Thinking of putting a palindromedary on a diet

 

No problems.

 

But if you are going to crosspost it, it might be worth noting that this difference in accessibility is not inherent in Hero system. You can make 'pick up and play" hero games, simply by skinning the system, so that character generation proceeds via "pick from this list of options" rather than "build each power and skillset exactly as you would like it". I know it works, because I have done it.

 

But to some extent, that makes the point about lack of support, I had to do that. I could do it relatively easily, because I'm a very experienced Hero system GM. A novice GM, however - even a really good one - probably could not.

 

I'm always a bit loathe to suggest "what Hero Games should do" because it's usually a thousand times easier to suggest something than to actually do it, but just imagine if (for example) "Fantasy Hero" instead of being packed full of full hero system examples and general advice had instead had a simplified template+modules approach to allow people to build relatively generic characters in an hour or so in the front section of the book, GM's advice in the middle section of the book with advice (referring back to the full hero rules) on what kinds of modules and how many points are suitable for different fantasy world archetypes, with guidance on how the modules and packages were made and how they can be customised or expanded to full Hero system. and finally several short, generic linked adventures to get the group started.

 

That approach requires that the GM own the core rules, but that given, you have everything else you need to get started and run a game. Now apply that approach to (for example) the spy/vigilante genre, or anything else you want - for that matter, you can do it for specific settings within a genre. Valdorian Age, for example, went some way in that direction, changing some basic assumptions, but the Hero system was still heavily on display in all its opulent mechanistic glory ... and more and more, I don't think it actually needs to be.

 

cheers, Mark