Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Vondy]

The endless fight is one experience I haven't had from Hero barring coaching first time players. Barring that the longest Heroic Hero System fights I've had (involving about a dozen combatants all totaled) took an hour. That was a huge, complicated battle. Most take about 20-30 minutes about the same as any other game. And significantly less than Exalted 2nd a "simpler" system by some claims where a four on four battle took 3 and a half hours.  

 

Now I have a long Superheroic fight but it was meant to be huge. It involved three full teams of superhumans and squads of mookss that took place across a shopping mall the size of the Mall of America. In a comic it would have been the entire issue or more and was broken up with some role play side scenes. But it did take awhile to settle but was incredibly fun not a slog like the Exalted battle. 

 

I never had this issue, either. If you have the speed chart memorized and understand the (relatively simple) engine that drives attack/defense/damage then you can make them fly. Though, some players do need an egg timer...

[Vondy]

Agreed with 6e. I love that I can look in those books and get a good ruling about nearly anything that anyone might choose to do in the system. Those books aren't good for the beginner. BTW that lifeless Textbook approach to things is one thing I don't like about Steve's Writing style. He can really suck the life out of anything and turn it into a textbook.

Its like reading tort law.

 

I am wondering what you thought of Champions Complete (and or Fantasy Hero Complete). I thought they both did a great job of drilling down into 6e to make a game that is learnable by a new player.

I thought Champions Complete was a solid move towards clearer presentation of the system. Its definitely more accessible.

[Roter Baron]

With one player in my group (a good friend of mine) playing Champions sometimes feels like a game of chess - counting hexes, recounting them, looking at the area of effect etc.

But I am guilty, too: Sometimes takes a while to figure out my OCV and DCV with all them levels juggled around, manouvers to consider, DCV-bonuses for the Shield and malusses for encumbrance (that was FH).

Another player gets quite confounded with damage taken: Body damage MINUS resistant PD modified by hit location, STUN damage MINUS (Armor PLUS PD); then compare with CON for STUNNED effect and BODY for Impiared/ Disabled etc.

 

Come on, people: The game IS complicated sometimes!

[Roter Baron]

Champions Complete was a step in the right direction.

[Vondy]

With one player in my group (a good friend of mine) playing Champions sometimes feels like a game of chess - counting hexes, recounting them, looking at the area of effect etc.

But I am guilty, too: Sometimes takes a while to figure out my OCV and DCV with all them levels juggled around, manouvers to consider, DCV-bonuses for the Shield and malusses for encumbrance (that was FH).

Another player gets quite confounded with damage taken: Body damage MINUS resistant PD modified by hit location, STUN damage MINUS (Armor PLUS PD); then compare with CON for STUNNED effect and BODY for Impiared/ Disabled etc.

 

Come on, people: The game IS complicated sometimes!

 

It can be. A lot of things in Hero are like THAC0. A little bit counter-intuitive. In terms of modifiers, I've found having things "prepared for play" helps a lot. For instance, when I put MAs on a character sheet I don't write down the modifiers. I write down the modified combat values. If all the maneuvers are listed like this its easier to pick one and add CSLs to it on the fly. So, a character with Strength 15, OCV 8, DCV 8 would have a "Flashy Kicks" (Sacrifice Strike) written out as:

 

Flashy Kicks: OCV 9, DCV 6, Strike 7d6.

[Tasha]

That's interesting, Tasha; I guess different strokes for different folks.  I actually like the "textbook" quality of Steve's writing.  I just never needed rules to be written in a manner that is entertaining.  If I want entertaining reading, I'll read a novel.  I more partial to the rules being clear (as far as how they are written), which I think Steve does very well.  Steve being the writer is a big decider, if not the biggest decider, in whether or not I purchase a Hero System product.

 

The complaint isn't as much about the core rulebooks, but for the supplements. Books that IMHO should be entertaining. Mostly because they should be full of stuff that make you want to run the game. The books should engage your imagination. You should look at a villain and say "Wow, that's a really cool character."  The only real line that I got that feeling from was Champions New Millennium (which does show it's age now). In all three books when you read abouit groups and characters they engage you. When I ran that world, I ran villains that I always thought of as boring in previous editions. Because when I read their stories/background they made me want to include them. Fantasy Hero (1st edition) made you want to play the game. Mike Surbrook's Kazei 5 is engaging in that way. It's the difference between a book that is skimmed and lives on the bookshelf and one that is actually used.

[Vondy]

The complaint isn't as much about the core rulebooks, but for the supplements. Books that IMHO should be entertaining. Mostly because they should be full of stuff that make you want to run the game. The books should engage your imagination. You should look at a villain and say "Wow, that's a really cool character."  The only real line that I got that feeling from was Champions New Millennium (which does show it's age now). In all three books when you read abouit groups and characters they engage you. When I ran that world, I ran villains that I always thought of as boring in previous editions. Because when I read their stories/background they made me want to include them. Fantasy Hero (1st edition) made you want to play the game. Mike Surbrook's Kazei 5 is engaging in that way. It's the difference between a book that is skimmed and lives on the bookshelf and one that is actually used.

 

I agree. In retrospect, however, this is a little odd. The Dark Champions books Steve wrote for 4e do inspire me to run games. I think part of it might have been that he turned into a book producing researching-writing machine when he became line developer. He was producing everything for every genre on a time-table whether it was something he'd run / play in himself or not. Steve, like all of us, has his own talents and preferences. A lot of what he was writing wasn't for his gaming. It was for his work. If it doesn't speak to you, odds are you won't make it sing.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well this thread proves what Abe Lincoln said was true "You can't please all people all the time."

[Roter Baron]

And he continued: "...but as long as you please Den Roten Baron, all is fine!" PROST!

[bigdamnhero]

If you have the speed chart memorized...

I keep an open spreadsheet on my laptop with everyone's SPD & DEX already plotted out on it. I was blown away how much time that One Simple Trick saved compared to the old "OK, Who goes on Phase 3, what's your DEX...?" dance.

[Tasha]

I keep an open spreadsheet on my laptop with everyone's SPD & DEX already plotted out on it. I was blown away how much time that One Simple Trick saved compared to the old "OK, Who goes on Phase 3, what's your DEX...?" dance.

 

I learned to make a speed chart of all of the combatants before the game years ago. Being able to go "Segment 3, dex 33, Darkchyld take your phase" does speed stuff up. Also I have started to give 30 seconds to start a phase, then your character delays as a house rule. If they have a question or are confused, I will take time to help them. Sitting there like a bump with no plan gets you delayed and the next person goes. You do this a couple of times and see how quickly it trains the Players to know what they are going to do before you call their phase.

[Ninja-Bear]

I know as a player I try to already have a plan or ready for my phase. And I try not to go oops let me see if I do this...... Last game I played, I realized half way through that the move I did put me in jepardy but since my character really isn't tactical, I let it slide. Then the fun began!

[Christopher R Taylor]

For beginning players, its useful to build their OCV in as just a straight roll.  So instead of +2 OCV, +0 DCV, +2d6 on the Fast Strike maneuver you list it as 15- OCV, 7d6 damage.  Do the hard part so they can just plug in and play.  That OCV+11-3d6 roll formula makes life easier, but cutting maneuvers down straight to their resulting roll is even better.  Say what you made your roll by and that's the DCV you hit!  Then you can give them modifiers: well that is going to be -2 to hit, so they go 17- minus 2?  That's 15-.

[Scott Baker]

With one player in my group (a good friend of mine) playing Champions sometimes feels like a game of chess - counting hexes, recounting them, looking at the area of effect etc.

But I am guilty, too: Sometimes takes a while to figure out my OCV and DCV with all them levels juggled around, manouvers to consider, DCV-bonuses for the Shield and malusses for encumbrance (that was FH).

Another player gets quite confounded with damage taken: Body damage MINUS resistant PD modified by hit location, STUN damage MINUS (Armor PLUS PD); then compare with CON for STUNNED effect and BODY for Impiared/ Disabled etc.

 

Come on, people: The game IS complicated sometimes!

Change the terms and this sounds a lot like the last time I played D&D. Every little option, every little bonus from umpteen-dozen sets of (poorly integrated) rules books, etc. Gosh, it didn't used to take that long to run a combat in D&D back when I started. So there must also be something fundamentally wrong with the game system.

 

If Hero doesn't fit how you want to play, or you just can't control yourself, fine. No game system is going to work for every player. But there's a player (type) that can ruin every game system. Saying things are complicated because of a player type isn't fair to any system.

[sureshot73]

I can see why some like taking time to make characters. I don't see the need for it though personally. If a rpg allows me to to do it quicker and faster it's a feature not a bug. Taking a long time to make character is also not a and never will be a selling feature. Sure if your like myself experienced with the system it's easier. Not so much to a bunch of novice players/gm to the hobby. The Complete series of books was a step in the right direction though not enough imo. Mind you then you had those who complained that they were not "complete" enough. 

[Roter Baron]

Change the terms and this sounds a lot like the last time I played D&D. Every little option, every little bonus from umpteen-dozen sets of (poorly integrated) rules books, etc. Gosh, it didn't used to take that long to run a combat in D&D back when I started. So there must also be something fundamentally wrong with the game system.

 

If Hero doesn't fit how you want to play, or you just can't control yourself, fine. No game system is going to work for every player. But there's a player (type) that can ruin every game system. Saying things are complicated because of a player type isn't fair to any system.

 

I disagree.

System matters and if a system actively supports or even "demands" a highly tactically or very detailed approach to combat, then it is fair to say that combat can take longer than in other systems. Yes, you can play HERO without the options: Don't allow levels (especially with 6th Edition yu can buy your OCV and DCV straight as a Characteristic), don't use hit locations, Stunned, Impaired, Disabled rules, ignore END and - hell! - do away with STUN! It is still HERO and it still works (more or less).

But that is like playing classical D&D without Magic-Users and Clerics becaus ethe spells are too complicated.

 

But I do agree that D&D 3.0/3.5 of PF suffer the same problem when you start to reach about level 6+ AND it is harder to remember what certain spells do or don't do. The streamlined approach of Hero are a definite plus here.

 

And I am not saying that any us (especially NOT me!) is ruining anything. I just said: Combat (in FH and Champions, not so much in modern settings with lots of high-powered guns and comparable low resistand defenses) can take a long while.

[Scott Baker]

I disagree.

System matters and if a system actively supports or even "demands" a highly tactically or very detailed approach to combat, then it is fair to say that combat can take longer than in other systems. Yes, you can play HERO without the options: Don't allow levels (especially with 6th Edition yu can buy your OCV and DCV straight as a Characteristic), don't use hit locations, Stunned, Impaired, Disabled rules, ignore END and - hell! - do away with STUN! It is still HERO and it still works (more or less).

But that is like playing classical D&D without Magic-Users and Clerics becaus ethe spells are too complicated.

 

But I do agree that D&D 3.0/3.5 of PF suffer the same problem when you start to reach about level 6+ AND it is harder to remember what certain spells do or don't do. The streamlined approach of Hero are a definite plus here.

 

And I am not saying that any us (especially NOT me!) is ruining anything. I just said: Combat (in FH and Champions, not so much in modern settings with lots of high-powered guns and comparable low resistand defenses) can take a long while.

Of course you disagree. My experience/opinion doesn't exactly match your own, so you go off on yet another variation of your argument, ignoring what I actually wrote.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Gosh, it didn't used to take that long to run a combat in D&D back when I started.

 

 

Unless you tried unarmed combat, then nobody knew how the rules worked or what was going on.  Then the GM panicked and had a dragon show up or something.

[bigdamnhero]

For beginning players, its useful to build their OCV in as just a straight roll.  So instead of +2 OCV, +0 DCV, +2d6 on the Fast Strike maneuver you list it as 15- OCV, 7d6 damage.  Do the hard part so they can just plug in and play.  That OCV+11-3d6 roll formula makes life easier, but cutting maneuvers down straight to their resulting roll is even better.  Say what you made your roll by and that's the DCV you hit!  Then you can give them modifiers: well that is going to be -2 to hit, so they go 17- minus 2?  That's 15-.

Exactly. You can also list DCV & END for each maneuver/attack, as well as how many CSLs apply to that maneuver/attack; then all they have to do is allocate CSLs and roll dice. And again, making the Attack Roll work the same as Skill/Char Rolls makes the whole thing massively simpler to teach to new players IMX.

 

System matters and if a system actively supports or even "demands" a highly tactically or very detailed approach to combat, then it is fair to say that combat can take longer than in other systems. Yes, you can play HERO without the options: Don't allow levels (especially with 6th Edition yu can buy your OCV and DCV straight as a Characteristic), don't use hit locations, Stunned, Impaired, Disabled rules, ignore END and - hell! - do away with STUN! It is still HERO and it still works (more or less).

But that is like playing classical D&D without Magic-Users and Clerics becaus ethe spells are too complicated.

I admit I'm always baffled by this attitude, which I've heard from other people over the years:

 

1. Hero has lots of options.

2. Using all those options makes combat take too long.

3. Excluding options is not using the full system.

4. "Not using the full system" is somehow a bad thing.

5. Therefore Hero combat takes too long.

 

There is absolutely nothing in any edition of Hero that "demands" you use all the options for every game; in fact, every edition since at least 4ed has expressly said the exact opposite. If you want to play a "highly tactical or very detailed" combat, great - Hero supports that. But then don't complain that combat takes too long. If you want combat to run quicker, cut out the bits that are slowing things down and keep the bits you like - Hero also supports that. Hero combat takes exactly as long as you want it to take.

 

Of course system matters. The difference is Hero assumes you will make conscious choices about what to include/exclude to best suit the particular game you want to play. Failing to do so is like blaming the refrigerator for your overeating.

[Ninja-Bear]

In Battletech they have 3 levels of rules. Level 1 - introductory and its the basic level that I grew up on. Level 2 is more rules and tournament level. Level 3 is experamental (advance/optional) rules. You choose the rules you wany to play with but no one really feels that you are playing less if Battletech playing level one versus level 3

[Joe Walsh]

Of course system matters. The difference is Hero assumes you will make conscious choices about what to include/exclude to best suit the particular game you want to play. Failing to do so is like blaming the refrigerator for your overeating.

 

I see the same sort of complaints about GURPS.  My conclusion is that the rulebooks need to do a better job of explaining what a toolkit RPG is.  I know they all explain it; I know all the info is there. But the evidence would suggest that the message isn't getting through to a lot of folks, and the resulting game sessions are turning them away from these systems (and the reputation such sessions give the games keeps people from even trying them).

[phoenix240]

I've seen GURPS games implode for the same reason. There seems to be a need or drive to use all the rules in the books or, if they don't want to use those options and rules to demand they be cut from the books so no one else can use them (at least not without additional effort). 

[Chris Goodwin]

I admit I'm always baffled by this attitude, which I've heard from other people over the years:

 

1. Hero has lots of options.

2. Using all those options makes combat take too long.

3. Excluding options is not using the full system.

4. "Not using the full system" is somehow a bad thing.

5. Therefore Hero combat takes too long.

 

There is absolutely nothing in any edition of Hero that "demands" you use all the options for every game; in fact, every edition since at least 4ed has expressly said the exact opposite. If you want to play a "highly tactical or very detailed" combat, great - Hero supports that. But then don't complain that combat takes too long. If you want combat to run quicker, cut out the bits that are slowing things down and keep the bits you like - Hero also supports that. Hero combat takes exactly as long as you want it to take.

 

Of course system matters. The difference is Hero assumes you will make conscious choices about what to include/exclude to best suit the particular game you want to play. Failing to do so is like blaming the refrigerator for your overeating.

 

 

The thing about options is that they're optional; that's why they call them options.  

 

Allow me to talk about the olden days of Hero again for a moment.  Champions used Knockback and rolled Stun Multiple for Killing Attacks and didn't use Hit Locations or Impairing/Disabling; those weren't the options, that was just how the Champions RPG handled them.  Danger International used Hit Locations, Impairing/Disabling, and the advanced Bleeding rules; again, those weren't the particular settings of a group of options, just how Danger International did it.  Fantasy Hero and Danger International both gave the option to have some minion/mook/thug type enemies go down after some number of hits (1-3 or so) rather than fighting for every point of Stun.  

 

That's not to say you couldn't use the rules from one in the other; my group often mixed and matched as desired, and in fact, as of 4e those all became switchable options to pick and choose from.  

 

My own opinion is that what causes Hero combats to be long is a combination of some of the following factors: 

 

1. Players dawdling and GMs letting them

2. The game balance arms race

3. Set piece battles

 

I'm not sure how to handle #1 except to keep all of the players engaged all the time.  No phones or other electronics at the table, no TVs on in the background.  Keep player character SPD values within a point or two of one another, and all at least a point or two above the enemies.  This also plays into my #3, but keep combats smaller and more manageable in general.  

 

By #2 above I mean the idea that every PC has to have all the defenses against all of the opponents, and vice versa.  When lower point values were the norm, it was called "spot defense"; if a villain had a Drain, your first XP went into Power Defense; Mental Powers meant that when you could you'd buy Mental Defense; and so on.  With higher point values, all of that was front-loaded into characters at the beginning.  I get it.  No one likes to lose.  But neither PC nor NPC stand for Special Snowflake, and sometimes you will lose and have to slink off and lick your wounds.  Sometimes a group of 250 point heroes will go up against a group of villains who are too powerful for them; either use your brains, or live to fight another day.  

 

By #3 above I mean that every combat is treated as if it were the Big One.  Against even mooks, it's the GM making sure every single point of Stun is accounted for, that they get every one of their post-12 Recoveries, and that every point of negative Stun is tracked to make sure they're getting up when they're supposed to.  It's drawing out a full battle map and placing miniatures for that mook battle in the alleyway.  

 

Taken together, both #2 and #3 come out to: neither GMs nor players want their characters to lose, ever.  And, especially to GMs, don't punish the players for losing a fight.  If unconscious PCs get captured or killed, players are much less likely to want their characters to go unconscious, and will overbuild their defenses to compensate, and combats will last longer.  

[bigdamnhero]

In Battletech they have 3 levels of rules. Level 1 - introductory and its the basic level that I grew up on. Level 2 is more rules and tournament level. Level 3 is experamental (advance/optional) rules. You choose the rules you wany to play with but no one really feels that you are playing less if Battletech playing level one versus level 3

Right. Tho as Chris Goodwin points out, that becomes much harder to do when you're dealing with multiple genres. A given Champions game won't necessarily have more options than a given Fantasy Hero game - it'll just have different ones.

[ghost-angel]

I have noticed that Hero is getting compared to Genre Specific games a whole lot. Which isn't particularly fair.

 

It's easy to zone in, narrow down, and simplify choices when you're trying to create a specific feel for a specific genre & setting.

 

Hero is not a beast of that nature, the rules inherently have no genre attached, nor should they. They shouldn't even default to the assumed Superhero Genre.

 

Which makes "introductory/intermediate/advanced" harder to contend with. How can you tell the introductory player "You can make anything you want! As long as your idea doesn't involve these constructs which we've deemed more advanced and too complicated..."

 

It's where Hero Basic kind of failed, it literally left some cool options out.