Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Ninja-Bear]

One question is what campaign level is it to be set at? CC mentions standard level but that's referring to starring points not DCs, SPD, DEX and such. I can't believe that Blaster rifle in CC is 12D6

[Cantriped]

Yeah that Blaster Rifle is kinda OP: 12d6 Blast, Autofire (5), +1 OCV, +2 vs. Range, and 64 Charges.

It is a full step beyond what VIPER, PRIMUS, or UNTIL agents are using in the Champions Universe (unless you count Viper's V-12 Cannon, which is a 20d6 crew-served blaster with 30 Charges). Even Doctor Destroyer's agents aren't quite that will equipped (they have 12d6 Blasters with 32 Charges, and an 8d6 Autofire (5) Mode). I blame Power Creep...

[Ninja-Bear]

I was thinking that if this product gets together, I would encourage to use stuff that's listed in CC as much as possible. The pistol is 9D6-high but not too overwhelming so I would suggest in playbook that the pistol be referred to as a regular rifle and the 12D6 a Heavy Assault version.

 

Also by choosing 9D6, you can start to flesh out benchmarks for the characters and also inform the reader why PD/ED, CON and Resistent Defenses are set where they are at and not in a vacuum.

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw is there a list somewhere of villains (& perhaps heroes) that didn't make it into 6th but Hero owns?

[IndianaJoe3]

One question is what campaign level is it to be set at? CC mentions standard level but that's referring to starring points not DCs, SPD, DEX and such. I can't believe that Blaster rifle in CC is 12D6

 

There's the table on 6e1 pg 35 but the guidelines are so broad that they're almost useless (SPD 3-8, for example). They would definitely need tightening up.

[Cantriped]

One question is what campaign level is it to be set at? CC mentions standard level but that's referring to starring points not DCs, SPD, DEX and such.

In the back, CC gives some vague suggestions in the chapter "Champions - Superhero Roleplaying" (CC 167-190), but those suggestions would have been much more useful if CC had included the Character Ability Guidelines Table (mentioned above, 6e1 35). I use a slightly revised version of that table when I am building characters to make sure I hit the general benchmarks for that level of play (such as a Low-Powered Superhero being expected to dish out 6 to 12 DCs).

[Ninja-Bear]

I just read in European Enemies editors notes that the day of one page villains is over.

[Doc Democracy]

Because European Enemies was the epitome of good writing, huh? :-)

 

There were some truly awful builds and characters in there...but I think it is right to seek to give villains lots of background to help the GM make them more than a cipher. I think in a villains book, or a source book, then that is right. In what we are talking about then much of the text and fluff just contributes to bloat ware style books.

[Ninja-Bear]

Doc let me just say that I know on the boards people complain about European Enemies but I don't get it. (Note that that should be its own topic).

[Ninja-Bear]

CC has really tight backgrounds for the Heroes and Villains. Just what I'm looking for as an example.

[Spence]

I just read in European Enemies editors notes that the day of one page villains is over.

Great as an opinion, but I still see plenty of well thought out villains described on one page.

 

And for me a major "not really thought out and maybe I don't want to buy this" point is the idiotic practice of splitting the stat block across multiple pages when 40 to 50 percent of each page is non-statblock text. I can understand if the statblock completely fills a page, the need to flow to another page. But when the statblock fills only one column and is still finished off on another page, that is pure F-You to you supporters and any GM trying to use it.

 

just say'en....

[Ninja-Bear]

Like I said Spence i found it interesting and people can't blame Steve Long on character write up creep either!

[Spence]

Like I said Spence i found it interesting and people can't blame Steve Long on character write up creep either!

oh, I fully acknowledge the creep. But I don't necessarily object. My big sticking point is game authors, across the industry, seem to have completely blown off any consideration of how their product is used at the table. Having to continuously flip pages, not on just one PC/NPC, but every single one just to run the session is assinine.

 

Put the entire character, beast, what have you statblock on one side of a page.

[Ninja-Bear]

Spence I can see the appeal of a super villain team. I think though we need a lesser master villain though. Ideally one that would hire the villains in CC. Does anyone have 6th? Does it provide villains? If not then a playbook should include a few basic villains.

[Ninja-Bear]

Interesting I was reading the Slug for 5th and Steve mentions how even though you shouldn't switch between Cv and ECV, in this case it makes sense. (This is why I by "old" edition stuff).

 

P.s. I'm thinking the Slug might make a good master villain. Holocaust would but I really don't like the name.

[Cantriped]

Put the entire character, beast, what have you statblock on one side of a page.

Or when they can't be fit onto a single page, they should be arranged such that you can see both pages without flipping. For example, if you start an entry on an odd numbered page (as pages 1, 3, 5, etc. are usually on the left-hand inside page of a book), than If it spills over to the next page you can see both pages when you open the book to that section.

 

I usually prefer to print excerpts of stat-blocks and villain/monster entries I plan to use during a session (which leaves a lot fewer pages to flip through during combat). So I hate when the entry begins part way through a page that contains information from the previous entry I don't need, and ends part way through a another page that contains yet more information from the subsequent entry which I also don't need. It really does seem like authors have become so obsessed with reducing 'white-space' that they aren't considering how the material is intended to be used during play. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Put the entire character, beast, what have you statblock on one side of a page.

 

 

Yeah, I try really, really hard to do this with all my products.  Sometimes some of the description stuff has to go on another page but the stat block, the rules stuff all on one page.  I want it to be as easy as possible to use every creature and I hate two-page character sheets

[Spence]

Yeah, I try really, really hard to do this with all my products.  Sometimes some of the description stuff has to go on another page but the stat block, the rules stuff all on one page.  I want it to be as easy as possible to use every creature and I hate two-page character sheets

 

I've noticed.

 

And as a GM I tip my hat and extend a hearty "Thank You" 

[Ninja-Bear]

I'll chime in with Spence-thank you

[Christopher R Taylor]

One thing that helps save space is to skip the modifier numbers, active cost totals, etc.  I know its handy to have that stuff but it takes up space, and does anyone really need to see +½ next to the advantage in a writeup?  The only reason I even put the modifiers in is to give details like Armor Piercing.  The Hero Designer pack for the Bestiary has all the number crunching stuff if you really need it.

[Ninja-Bear]

I noticed that at least the characters stats in CC are all I listed one sheet each.

[zslane]

I like that CC offers usable character write-ups, but I'm not sure it adequately prepares newbies for the inscrutible writeups they will face the moment they dive into the Villains books (and the 6e-style writeups often seen in these forums).

 

I remember a time when the Mechanon write-up took less than half a page. It was neat to think you were throwing a newbie-friendly version of Ultron at your players without having to spend hours studying and deciphering his character description. It takes all of about ten minutes to read his 2nd ed. write-up and figure out what he'll do when he takes on the heroes. You could spend two hours going over his 6e write-up and still have a deep, lingering suspicion you aren't using him optimally.

[Cantriped]

One thing that helps save space is to skip the modifier numbers, active cost totals, etc.  I know its handy to have that stuff but it takes up space, and does anyone really need to see +½ next to the advantage in a writeup?  The only reason I even put the modifiers in is to give details like Armor Piercing.  The Hero Designer pack for the Bestiary has all the number crunching stuff if you really need it.

It doesn't save as much space as you'd think, and it makes auditing the sheet much harder if you don't list values for anything. Even in complicated constructs I've never found that leaving off Active Point and Modifier values saved enough line space (assuming it even saves any line space at all) to make it worth the headache is causes for the consumer to reverse engineer the sheet.

If the eventual goal is to teach more players the system, than not showing our work is counter productive to that end. I just don't think it's worth it given that it makes the sheets even more inscrutable than they already are.

[Cantriped]

I like that CC offers usable character write-ups, but I'm not sure it adequately prepares newbies for the inscrutible writeups they will face the moment they dive into the Villains books (and the 6e-style writeups often seen in these forums).

 

I remember a time when the Mechanon write-up took less than half a page. It was neat to think you were throwing a newbie-friendly version of Ultron at your players without having to spend hours studying and deciphering his character description. It takes all of about ten minutes to read his 2nd ed. write-up and figure out what he'll do when he takes on the heroes. You could spend two hours going over his 6e write-up and still have a deep, lingering suspicion you aren't using him optimally.

The CC write-ups really don't prepare the consumer for the kinds of feature bloat you find in master villains. But most of the other 400-point (and less) villains in those books similarly fit onto a single page.

My 800ish point master villains usually take up a page and a half or two pages; including description and their "common knowledge results" table... I'm not hardcore about reductionism like some authors. For example, I typically include their Everyman Skills so that you don't have to check a reference another source for them.

[Spence]

Spence I can see the appeal of a super villain team. I think though we need a lesser master villain though. Ideally one that would hire the villains in CC. Does anyone have 6th? Does it provide villains? If not then a playbook should include a few basic villains.

 

I see your point.  But in my vision the purpose of the intro campaign is not to fully establish the setting/city.  But to have just enough of the building blocks to be playable and allow a GM to easily keep and expand on it, or simply drop it completely. 

 

Once you add a Master Villain, regardless of where in the power structure they are, you inject an overall defined purpose and direction.

 

I specifically come back to Grab because they are not killers and sit firmly on the side of nuisance villainy (theft) as opposed to the more destructive and deadly agendas that are followed by Master Villains.

 

Grab operates independently as well as being one of the go to villain teams when a Master Villain needs a skillful touch to steal (or plant) something but doesn't want the crime directly linked back.

 

A mini-campaign set around Grab can be easily discarded (Grab was just stealing the MacGuffin for profit) or tied in to a greater plot (Hired by Master Villain X) as needed. 

 

I'm aiming for the middle ground that Hero at large defiantly avoids.   That sweet spot most other lines find between no detail and far too much detail.

 

I am reminded of an old Far Side cartoon that showed Leonardo lying unconscious on the ground with a big lump on his head with a huge bruiser with a club standing over him.  On the easel is the Mona Lisa.   The caption was something like "behind every master artist is man with a club to stop him when the job is complete" or some such.   I think that is one of Champions/Hero's greatest failings.  When they put out an adventure or similar items, they way over engineer it and completely forgot that it isn't for their personal campaign.  It is for someone else to use in theirs and then wonder why it doesn't sell. 

 

Pretty much all of the flying off the shelf modules and campaigns out there are designed so they can be run in a game world, and then completely ignored without plot gymnastics by the GM/DM.   They can all be selected or discarded without fear of skewing a setting.  It is why I prefer old Viper and Demon to the most current version.  The fact that Demon decreed all must use pink toilet paper on 16 Mar 2010 is a completely useless and irrelevant to a campaign.  Yes, that is a made up snarky comment .  But the most recent incarnations have far too many "facts" that show up in far too many other products.   There I go again, I'll stop ranting now