Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Cantriped]

I think 30 pages is a minimum length for a Gazetteer. Although 60 would be better considering that for a new world/setting you should be covering issues like economics, technology, politics, history, basic cosmology, calendar systems, etc. for a large swath of the world (each topic can eat up a page or more by themselves) and leave yourself enough page-space to get into a reasonable level of detail in your descriptions of each area, plus more for at least one important area/default launchpad. Which means you're gonna lose at least 3 pages just to maps (1 World, 1 Country, and 1 City map) and quite possibly more. If it is intended to be a stand-alone product (or one later supplements will build upon) it needs to detail its magic system (if any), and provide examples (which eats up several pages all by itself).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Fantasy Hero Complete​ came closer to providing a 'playbook' with its included Kingdom of Grischun micro setting (which comes in around 40 pages). It contained very little in the way of raw rules text (just a few sample magic items and monsters), but it does provide a decent setting overview and a more detailed description of a single area that can be used as a sandbox/launching pad for a larger campaign. 

 

 

It did a pretty good job as a starter, something to jump into that the GM doesn't have to build themselves.  Frankly most of the details given in Gazetteer type documents most GMs don't use anyway; the setting is just a place for adventures to take place, so they don't care what noble titles there are and what kind of industry is in a given city.  Its really nice to have that stuff if you're doing a more in-depth, role playing campaign, so having it is good, its just not as much a drawback as people might think.

[assault]

16 pages sounds about right, and half of that would be art and maps.

 

A major Champions character, for example, would take up a page. Half a page for the character sheet, and half a page for a picture of him/her/it. And a printable paper miniature (with other characters) on another page.

[Cantriped]

I don't think that is a reasonable set of expectations assault. You'd be hard pressed to fit a Competent Normal into a half-page using the standard format* and a readable font size, let alone an actual 400+ point Champions character. Case in point, Dr. Destroyer's sheet is 3 pages long (4 if you count the page of VPP examples), and he comes with 5 more pages of fluff and art. Even 'Bit Villains' (such as Brainchild) take up a full page just for their sheets, and in his case two more for fluff and art (some of the <400 point villains only have 1 page of fluff, but even they use at least 3/4s of a page on their sheet).

*You can probably fit most minor NPCs into a half-page if you use the "Character Brief" format, maybe even a quarter-page if they are exceptionally simple, and still retain a readable font-size.

[Ninja-Bear]

Cantriped you make good points. This is why I suggest 300 pt level. Even CC suggests this under campaign guidelines.

[Doc Democracy]

Those character sheets are also full of detail I would not expect in a playbook. It should be there to give a taster of a genre, allow the GM to pick up and play two to four sessions max. With some clever layout and decent artwork I think Assault's estimates are achievable.

[Cantriped]

But we aren't necessarially talking about sample characters, we are talking about the wide range of NPCs built on all point-levels that the PCs might encounter. A quick look through the example sheets provided for FHC shows that of 42 sheets, not one would fit onto a half-page in standard format (although several might fit if you use the Brief format). I have a set of blank character sheet templates I use for making my entries (such as the Human Necromancer and Animated Skeleton). Even totally empty the standard format sheet takes up 3/4 of a page, and the brief format sheet takes up 1/4 of a page.

 

For those unfamiliar with the term I keep throwing out there the "Brief" Format is what is used for bit-NPCs in the margins of many of the 5th edition books. My entry to the Corporate America thread (see below) used a format extremely similar to the official Brief Format.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93395-corporate-america-the-first-infringer/?p=2588889

[Ninja-Bear]

Cantriped I see your concern but have you seen some of the sample write ups in Fantasy Hero 4th? They are tight but had all the necessary info for NPCs.

[Ninja-Bear]

Spence you know two of the adventures in Vioers nest-Christopher Park and Taghai Building could easy swap out Viper agents with Grab.

[Cantriped]

Cantriped I see your concern but have you seen some of the sample write ups in Fantasy Hero 4th? They are tight but had all the necessary info for NPCs.

No I haven't. I started playing with 5th and don't own anything from before it. But most likely they were using a version of the "Brief Format".

[Joe Walsh]

Prior to 5e, writeups were pretty straightforward. For example, Mechanon fit on one page in 4e -- full stats, text write-up, and drawing!  The actual stats only take up about a quarter of a page. Back then, very few Powers had a long list of Power Modifiers. Enough for flavor, with no need to define every single aspect of every power.

[assault]

Prior to 5e, writeups were pretty straightforward. For example, Mechanon fit on one page in 4e -- full stats, text write-up, and drawing!  The actual stats only take up about a quarter of a page. Back then, very few Powers had a long list of Power Modifiers. Enough for flavor, with no need to define every single aspect of every power.

 

Exactly. And this can still be done in 6th.

[Ninja-Bear]

No I haven't. I started playing with 5th and don't own anything from before it. But most likely they were using a version of the "Brief Format".

Yes I would say it was your brief form.

[Ninja-Bear]

No I haven't. I started playing with 5th and don't own anything from before it. But most likely they were using a version of the "Brief Format".

Yes I would say it was your brief form.

 

Double post

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw for a introduced game, no way should Doctor Destroyer show up! If anything Professor Muetrte should make an appearance! (Perhaps someone acting like the dead Professor.)

[Cantriped]

Agreed. However, even bit villains (300-350 point characters) like Snowblind take up two pages in standard format; ~1 page of fluff and ~1 page for their sheet (with art on whichever page has more space left over). The simplest example character from FHC, the 175-point Elven Ranger (who has no spells or magic at all) takes up a full page (technically 3/4ths of a page plus a small illustration).

[Spence]

Spence you know two of the adventures in Vioers nest-Christopher Park and Taghai Building could easy swap out Viper agents with Grab.

 

Yep,  I have Vipers Nest.  But I was trying to avoid an existing adventure in this.  If an intro how to play campaign hooks a new player, they may find having Vipers Nest still available a helpful thing.   

 

When I was just starting the Viper's Nest out of the boxed set was the first adventure I ran. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Cantriped I don't have Snowblind but I believe you. Still you can make a Basic villain that will fit on one page with art. I not saying every concept could or should be done like this. You really only need a paragraph for into for he villain. It can be done.

[Doc Democracy]

It is all about how much information you NEED to provide for a character to make it playable for three or four sessions. There has been a history for all characters to provide every build detail for scrutiny. I think that is fine in a RULE book but entirely unecessary in a PLAY book.

 

I will go to an example and see if I can come up with something and upload to site as an amateur example, a professional would, of course, do better.

[Ninja-Bear]

Doc if you converted some of the old example characters, I think they clock in around 300ish points.

[steriaca]

Simply put, example characters should only have enough information to run the character.

 

Background: Only enough to get an orgin.

 

Personality/Modivation: If heroic, just enough to give him/her more than a cookie cutter character, but leave enough for player interpretation.

 

Powers/Tactics: What are the special effects of the powers? How are they used in general. Any special tactics? More than likely, not yet in there carriers.

[Doc Democracy]

OK.  I have had a very quick go - not a huge amount of thought has gone into this beyond trying to make it look different and get the necessary information for playing at the table on there.  I think it is about half a page and could easily be squeezed further....it is a character from the Champions Universe - Dr Macabre which takes up two pages of that book.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/380-dr-macabrepdf/

 

Doc

[Cantriped]

That sheet looks good Doc, it's pretty similar to the character Brief format; which was designed to fit into narrow columns, such as the wide margin spaces of 5th edition sourcebooks. Since they are for GM's use you could also have cut most of those descriptive sentences for his powers, the GM should know what X​d6 Mind Control does before they run a villain that uses it.

Regardless, despite the risk of sounding like a broken record, my point wasn't that you cannot present a villain in a half-page using a more concise format (such as in Character Brief Format), it was that you cannot present a villain in a half-page using the Standard Format.

[Doc Democracy]

That sheet looks good Doc, it's pretty similar to the character Brief format; which was designed to fit into narrow columns, such as the wide margin spaces of 5th edition sourcebooks. Since they are for GM's use you could also have cut most of those descriptive sentences for his powers, the GM should know what X​d6 Mind Control does before they run a villain that uses it.

Regardless, despite the risk of sounding like a broken record, my point wasn't that you cannot present a villain in a half-page using a more concise format (such as in Character Brief Format), it was that you cannot present a villain in a half-page using the Standard Format.

But a new GM might need that descriptive stuff and I think the Standard format would not belong in any playbook I envisage. It should be just enough to pick up and play. And we need to break into groups where noone has played before and so the playbook needs to facilitate the players as much as the players.

[assault]

I think, if you do a quick outline, a 16 page playbook is doable, but very tight. I'd be tempted to go for 24. That would allow extra characters and maps. (Maps = scenarios, in this context.)