Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok Spence I get what your saying. Btw when I said master villain, I was thinking of a low tiered one. I forgot that Grab does work independently. P.s. Perhaps Lady Blue would work as a "master" villain in this case. I do agree about the sweet spot of info.

[Spence]

Ok Spence I get what your saying. Btw when I said master villain, I was thinking of a low tiered one. I forgot that Grab does work independently. P.s. Perhaps Lady Blue would work as a "master" villain in this case. I do agree about the sweet spot of info.

 

I hadn't thought of Lady Blue like that.  But she definitely could be a Master Thief style master villain.

Now that gets the brain cells turning over...

[Doc Democracy]

Good grief, we are witnessing "a conversation" ON THE INTERNET. An exchange of ideas, give and take and actual changes of position.

 

Well done those chaps!

 

:-)

[zslane]

The CC write-ups really don't prepare the consumer for the kinds of feature bloat you find in master villains.

Right. And just to be clear, I don't blame CC for this. CC is doing the right thing, IMO. I rest the blame squarely on the shoulders of the "feature bloat" that has become de rigeur for anything but the simplest villains/NPCs in the post-4e era. It's too bad there isn't a CC equivalent to the old Enemies books.

[Cantriped]

Good grief, we are witnessing "a conversation" ON THE INTERNET. An exchange of ideas, give and take and actual changes of position.

 

Well done those chaps!

 

:-)

[insert Obligatory Flame/Trolling Remark Here]

[Spence]

Good grief, we are witnessing "a conversation" ON THE INTERNET. An exchange of ideas, give and take and actual changes of position.

 

Well done those chaps!

 

:-)

 

Jinx!  Jinx!

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!

[Joe Walsh]

Right. And just to be clear, I don't blame CC for this. CC is doing the right thing, IMO. I rest the blame squarely on the shoulders of the "feature bloat" that has become de rigeur for anything but the simplest villains/NPCs in the post-4e era. It's too bad there isn't a CC equivalent to the old Enemies books.

 

Honestly, I'm starting to think that CC needs its own line. Leave the 6e stuff in the past, start over with a clean slate. CC really is a new edition. It's as new an edition as 5e was. Just start over and keep everything simpler going forward.

 

I know, dreaming, but...I still think it's the right thing to do.

[Ninja-Bear]

I hadn't thought of Lady Blue like that. But she definitely could be a Master Thief style master villain.

Now that gets the brain cells turning over...

Neither did I. I was thinking though of other non-lethal villains and Lady Blue came to mind.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok going with Grab and Lady Blue, we can go by their 4th ed. builds and let the reader know that these are specifically lower point builds.

[Ninja-Bear]

Wait there's more! I remember reading in CKC-Grab, they are led by a certain vulpine faced leader. So true believers let's bring back The Fox of Crime! I would make his Dog agents also have Code vs Killing too.

[Ninja-Bear]

What would they want to steal? I'm thinking an Artifact that belonged to a group which along time ago was stolen/claimed a country. The first group wants it back, second group doesn't want to give it back.

[Ninja-Bear]

Another idea would be that Grab breaks into the IRS to steal tax returns. Publicly it's so they can steal from the rich to give to the poor but is there more?

[Spence]

Don't get too elaborate. 

KISS

Too much detail is what usually kills a Champions adventure.

 

This is supposed to be a way to introduce Champions not be the root of a six year mega-campaign.

 

A series of late night bank/jewelry store heists.  GRAB being all nice like and doing things on the sly and a different Villain (or Villain Team) that is jumping on the bandwagon inspired by GRAB's heists but leaving a trail of bodies.

 

Our Heroes (all pre-gens or semi-custom pre-gens), who do not know there are two different sets of thieves, must unravel the clues and stop the crime wave. 

 

Build it as a mystery, not just a smash up.  Demonstrate that skills have a reason to exist.

 

Simple, easy and most of all, can be slotted into virtually any campaign concept.

 

I have been mostly making and running GUMSHOE games and other mystery based ones.  So I've been working on this idea (crime spree by GRAB plus Deadly) for a while now as an intro for my gaming group.  I have all the rough work done, basic spine, episodes, list of Dramatis Personae (including local police and detectives), etc.   The episodes are set up with floating and fixed ones on a timeline set on a calendar.

 

I'm using pre-gens because the other issue Champs has is that while the rules to build are actually not that hard, they are near impossible to grasp unless you have a hands on grasp of how they end up working "in game" the old cart before the horse conundrum.   Other non-generic games don't have this problem.   D&D leads players through a series of choices, some binary, some multiple choice.  But all of the choices are well corralled in a small and manageable fenced area that give the players the illusion they are "creating unique characters".  Even with this, new players invariably discover that the character they built isn't what they thought it was and either do a complete re-build or change classes all together.    This with a game system that keeps all the PC's in a box. 

 

With Hero, you actually do build unique characters with only the imagination being the limit.   But trying to build a PC without a good feel of exactly how things work in actual play generally fails unless you have an old hand to guide new players over the hump.  Yes, there are exceptions.  And many of them will doubtless expound ad nauseum of how "it is just so easy for everyone".   

 

But I am running on the idea what has been being done in the last 10 years is wrong.  Or if not wrong, ineffective.  Time to take a different path..

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

What I have in mind for Champions is the arson scenario that came up in the ""starting scenarios" but to leave it open ended for the GM to use as a lead-in for the Tanghal Towers/Viper's Nest for maybe a campaign intro product.  A simple storyline with an end but tips on how the GM can use it for the start of something bigger at the end.

[IndianaJoe3]

Honestly, I'm starting to think that CC needs its own line. Leave the 6e stuff in the past, start over with a clean slate. CC really is a new edition. It's as new an edition as 5e was. Just start over and keep everything simpler going forward.

 

Ok going with Grab and Lady Blue, we can go by their 4th ed. builds and let the reader know that these are specifically lower point builds.

 

I like the idea of getting away from the CU, and re-balancing around less powerful characters.

[Cantriped]

Honestly, I'm starting to think that CC needs its own line. Leave the 6e stuff in the past, start over with a clean slate. CC really is a new edition. It's as new an edition as 5e was. Just start over and keep everything simpler going forward.

 

I know, dreaming, but...I still think it's the right thing to do.

That is more or less my stance as well, I only use 6th edition supplements and rules as secondary rules references. CC/FHC are my primary rules references now. So all of my projects are written from that perspective, and cite CC/FHC whenever a rules reference is required.

That being said, I really do like the Champions Universe​, and sometimes I still use it. I enjoy how much detail it has to work with.

Although it might be time to retire the old-guard. Iconic though they may be... Defender and friends are getting sort of old to still be in this 'line-of-work'.

[Spence]

Honestly, I'm starting to think that CC needs its own line. Leave the 6e stuff in the past, start over with a clean slate. CC really is a new edition. It's as new an edition as 5e was. Just start over and keep everything simpler going forward.

 

I know, dreaming, but...I still think it's the right thing to do.

 

 

I like the idea of getting away from the CU, and re-balancing around less powerful characters.

 

 

That is more or less my stance as well, I only use 6th edition supplements and rules as secondary rules references. CC/FHC are my primary rules references now. So all of my projects are written from that perspective, and cite CC/FHC whenever a rules reference is required.

That being said, I really do like the Champions Universe​, and sometimes I still use it. I enjoy how much detail it has to work with.

Although it might be time to retire the old-guard. Iconic though they may be... Defender and friends are getting sort of old to still be in this 'line-of-work'.

 

Hmm...   I'm not going to say you're wrong.  But to me the differences between 6th and CC are almost non-existent.  More like two identical houses, one painted green and one painted blue.   To me there has never really been that many changes/differences between versions.

 

Now that said.  I really don't think Hero or Champions issues are due to the rules or the existing products.  Now we can split hairs and argue minutia about minor tweaks in the rules or realize that rule mechanic based supplements have been done to the point that any that come out are just re-prints with a few tweaks. 

 

But they are not new product or anything that will attract new players that have not been able to grok the core rules in the first place.

 

No.  I think the rules themselves are just fine as they are.  Whether the have Champions Complete or 6th Edition on the cover. 

 

What we need now is a lure that will entice new players into wanting to buy them.  On RPGNow when you look at available titles for Champions/Hero there are 339 titles listed.  The Hero Store has right about 240 6th Edition (includes CC and FHC) titles in the store.  The core and general support titles have long been written. 

 

So the question should be, what is missing from the line up that every currently successful RPG line has and is selling?

Simple answer, adventures and campaigns.   The quick rebuttal is that they don't sell.  And maybe they don't, or didn't.  But these days they seem to be selling very well indeed, I have several on my shelves, beautiful hardbound and softbound volumes of adventure goodness.  Some high detailed long run-time massive ones like Eternal Lies, Shadows of Atlantis and don't forget the half dozen each D&D 5th, Star Wars RPG and 13th Age adventure/campaigns that have released in the last couple years.  

 

Now there have been some great adventures written.  Shade of Black is one of my favorites and there are several from 3rd party's.  Well written adventures, but all written to be that cool diversion from a ongoing campaign.    None are straight up superhero adventures in the sense of what you need to teach a new player how to Hero. 

 

Bank robbers, thieves, assassins, small city specific crime syndicates (mobsters, yakuza, etc.), home grown mad scientist.  Nothing world threatening at first.  If you do that then you have the issue of most DC comic movies, used the big finale first and have nowhere to go.   No, the new Champs player needs some solid crime fighting under their belt first.  A little history to create that oh so special arch-enemy that no hero should be without.  

 

Start small and work up.

[zslane]

Well, with all due respect Spence, I think one of 6e's major stumbling blocks (with regard to attracting new players) has been its presentation, which is a set of rules references only a long-time Hero System veteran could love (and not all of us do at that). CC and FHC have done an admirable job of taking the 6e rules and presenting them in a more 3e/4e style, without all the excess material that clutters up the essentials and makes the system nearly impossible to digest.

 

I do, however, agree with you whole-heartedly that the Hero System is in desperate need of campaign settings that can serve as full product lines and as easy entrance gateways to the complete system.

[Cantriped]

I do, however, agree with you whole-heartedly that the Hero System is in desperate need of campaign settings that can serve as full product lines and as easy entrance gateways to the complete system.

More important than Campaign Settings are actual Campaigns and Scenarios. Settings themselves aren't very useful unless they are properly supported by Campaigns & Scenarios that allow GMs to easily run games in those settings without extensive preparation. I think there are far more GMs who would purchase a Scenario with a generic setting than a specific setting without scenarios to run in it. Who wants to spend a whole bunch of time studying the history of a fictional world to run their game in, and then try to write scenarios that fit and present that world to their players?

 

A big part of what has made Paizo so successful was the quality and length of their scenarios. There are literally more than 12,000 pages worth of just Adventure Paths alone, all written to be plug-and-played in a single setting (which itself has thousands of pages of documentation now).

[Spence]

Well, with all due respect Spence, I think one of 6e's major stumbling blocks (with regard to attracting new players) has been its presentation, which is a set of rules references only a long-time Hero System veteran could love (and not all of us do at that). CC and FHC have done an admirable job of taking the 6e rules and presenting them in a more 3e/4e style, without all the excess material that clutters up the essentials and makes the system nearly impossible to digest.

 

I do, however, agree with you whole-heartedly that the Hero System is in desperate need of campaign settings that can serve as full product lines and as easy entrance gateways to the complete system.

 

As to 6e I don't disagree at all.  I wasn't referring to presentation at all, but was speaking of the rules themselves.   Champions Complete did a great job no matter from which direction you look. 

 

I just don't think there is any real need of any more discussion of new additions.  If CC doesn't have enough information (not that I think that is an issue) the very very large 6th Edition library is more than able fill it.  Rules and Builds wise.

 

That is why I think it is a waste of energy to keep mulling it over and over.

 

I think the effort is better served in generating something that can be used.  So I am in the process of making what I think will work.  Or at least my version of what may work.   I've read some of the other similar efforts but they don't click with me or I think they are expending effort on window dressing instead of the central issue.   And since I may be flat wrong, I have decided to step away and shut up so they can continue with their vision.  If it works it will be awesome. 

 

But my angle is a mini-campaign/long adventure heavily influenced by the Plot Point format designed around basic super crime fighting and using pre-gens (absolutely NO chargen). 

[Ninja-Bear]

I'm thinking with Grab you can add Powerhouse for the brick. For a small time crime boss youcan use El Captitain.

[Spence]

I'm thinking with Grab you can add Powerhouse for the brick. For a small time crime boss youcan use El Captitain.

 

?

 

Black Diamond is brick enough, isn't she?

 

For my version I was deliberately keeping GRAB free-lance and independent.  And definitely not combat heavy's.   GRAB should be that villain team that prefers to get in and out with no one the wiser and fighting only as the last resort and then only to escape and break contact.

 

The deadly side of the house should be the other villains and organized crime.  To me the whole point is to test the heroes ability to realize that there are actually two different things happening.   Deadly danger on one hand and simple thievery on the other. 

[assault]

If we can go back to 4e, then Mindlock is a potential minor boss villain.

 

More generally... about the only criticism I have of CC is that the example villains seem more like "the kind of characters you can build" rather than "the kind of characters you should build". Shrinker is the most obvious example, with her "Microscopic Combat" powers. Black Harlequin is another.

 

They are good examples of how the rules work, but they aren't good examples of the kind of villains (most) starting campaigns should use. (IMHO, naturally)

[Ninja-Bear]

Spence I forgot about Black Diamond.

Ooooh I forgot about Mindlock!

[Spence]

They are good examples of how the rules work, but they aren't good examples of the kind of villains (most) starting campaigns should use. (IMHO, naturally)

 

Buy that man a cigar.  That is exactly the type of problem we are talking about.