Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Spence]

Nah, just a real clear presentation of a campaign for GMs to pick up and use easily, a couple of nice intro adventures, and I would suggest at least one campaign storyline the GM can follow for a story arc, several adventures tied together to create a single tale.  The settings are pretty well established with the Champions Universe and city books, there just needs to be something specifically turning it into a Champions Campaign instead of a setting.

 

Yes, so you agree

 

This is what I mean.  Simple but you need the campaign ground rules or you cannot build characters. 

 

Player: "How many points can I use?" 

GM:     "I dunno......" {flipping pages}

Player: "Can I use all my points in one power?"

GM:     "Sure, I guess,  I was looking for CP's you need, but can't find it.  Also shouldn't there be a, what is it called, AP cap or something?"

Player:  "In the rulebook I think."

GM:      "Let's just use the pregens.  We can figure out it later.  I wish someone had proofed the campaign to make sure it had everything before publishing it."

 

A simple campaign, yes.  Tied to the CU to facilitate the fact that the CU exists. To be blunt the CU is so obscure anyway, using the CU as a "generic" setting is the same as a completely new character in a completely new setting.  Tied in however, it allows new players to be pointed back to the existing library.

 

If they choose to strike off on there own path, fantastic.  But if they are time poor and want published material to play as is or data mine to customize later, even better.

[phoenix240]

I prefer Old Codger or Curmudgeon myself

 

 

 

I, for one, am not talking about a “slew” of anything, especially modules. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One person's healthy injection" might be another's "slew" though.

 

I'm likely an outlier but I never wanted or needed an official campaign. One the reasons I got into Hero to get away official campaigns, supplement treadmills and fixation on canon. It would be disappointing to see it head that way now. But, end of the day, the ending is the same for in either extreme case; hero falls off the face of the Earth, I use what I have. Hero changes into something I am no longer interested in, I use what I have already. 

[steriaca]

The idea is for a beginner's book. Since we are not beginner's, it won't concern us, except as a way to get newcomers into the game without bundling one of us to teach the game with every book.

[Lucius]

The idea is for a beginner's book. Since we are not beginner's, it won't concern us, except as a way to get newcomers into the game without bundling one of us to teach the game with every book.

If I'm to be bundled with a book, I want to bring the palindromedary along too

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary isn't too sure abut this idea....

[Nolgroth]

I actually am calling for a "slew" of new modules and setting supplements. No offense to Phoenix, but that old guard attitude has, IMO, done more damage to the financial viability of Hero Games than any recession could. Also no offense intended but if you are all about "rolling your own" then there are few future supplements that would seemingly interest you.

 

I personally believe that the only way for Hero Games to reclaim any status in the market is to start publishing everything they can. If that doesn't appeal to the grognards, then they follow Phoenix's example and select only those products that appeal to them.

[steriaca]

I'm all for having newcomers to the system. New books and beginner's guides are a sure way to get them to understand the rules. We will always be available to help, of course, but we also have lives outside gaming (work, for example). So, bring on the new books. I, for one, welcome them.

[Spence]

One person's healthy injection" might be another's "slew" though.

 

I'm likely an outlier but I never wanted or needed an official campaign. One the reasons I got into Hero to get away official campaigns, supplement treadmills and fixation on canon. It would be disappointing to see it head that way now. But, end of the day, the ending is the same for in either extreme case; hero falls off the face of the Earth, I use what I have. Hero changes into something I am no longer interested in, I use what I have already. 

 

 

Oh I completely understand and don't mean to imply anything.  I myself came to Hero for much the same reasons.

 

But my free time has been significantly reduced in the last several years and I just do not have enough time to build a real campaign.  So I have been reduced to running D&D, CoC and such that have pre-generated campaigns/modules.  I'm planning on running the new Conan too.  They are decent systems, if not Hero. 

 

In the end, I don't see it as those two choices because I don't see offering a campaign or dressing the existing rules in a more palatable (to the current tabletop gamers) physical format as changing anything about Hero as it is now.  Hero is Hero.  But if a shiny cover or a campaign book entices new players to the game, that is great and in the end will not affect my game in the least.  Except maybe I'll have an easier time locating players.  

 

And it may be the pessimist in me, but I don't see how Hero can fall very much further into obscurity as a tabletop RPG in 2017.

[phoenix240]

The idea is for a beginner's book. Since we are not beginner's, it won't concern us, except as a way to get newcomers into the game without bundling one of us to teach the game with every book.

Yeah, I get that's what some folks want. Others are talking about campaign books, etc. Like most of the other ideas to ostensibly save Hero in this thread I dubious to ambivalent about them. I have contented myself with the idea that as far as my games go none of them really effect them. 

[Spence]

I'm all for having newcomers to the system. New books and beginner's guides are a sure way to get them to understand the rules. We will always be available to help, of course, but we also have lives outside gaming (work, for example). So, bring on the new books. I, for one, welcome them.

 

 

Yeah, I get that's what some folks want. Others are talking about campaign books, etc. Like most of the other ideas to ostensibly save Hero in this thread I dubious to ambivalent about them. I have contented myself with the idea that as far as my games go none of them really effect them. 

 

Everyone does realize that beginners books and campaigns are not necessarily opposites?  In fact most initial campaigns for a system are designed to be for beginners. 

 

Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete are about as watered down and streamlined as possible.  The big issue is that very few brand new players are able to successfully apply those concepts without a functional example to look at.   While I think Hero is almost stupidly easy now, when I first started came really close to chucking the whole mess.  But I had a friend that had already grasp the concept and just running through one quick sample game made it click.   Hero needs that something to make things click. 

 

While I may not be correct in the end, my personal opinion after some reflection, is that a short introductory campaign would do the trick.   Not a new rulebook.  The rulebooks are about as short and succinct as one can get, the issue is one of "it takes an application to actually comprehend". 

 

I would love to see dozens of books a month of all kinds that I could pick and choose from, but that is not realistic. 

 

So now I just would like to see something from a new angle.  Not just a re-edit and print of the same format concept. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Spence I like your idea and really for a beginner game I think Vipers Nest and Mob Rule are excellent adventures. (I really think that basic Viper agent stats need to be lowered -imho). Nice thing about those is that Viper uses Supervillains and if a new GM wanted to customize the game, he can swap or add in his own villains easily.

[IndianaJoe3]

I personally believe that the only way for Hero Games to reclaim any status in the market is to start publishing everything they can. If that doesn't appeal to the grognards, then they follow Phoenix's example and select only those products that appeal to them.

 

Maybe not everything, but they do need to start pushing product. Evil Hat seems to be doing reasonably well with their Worlds of Fate Patreon, and I see no reason why Hero couldn't do something similar.

[Spence]

Spence I like your idea and really for a beginner game I think Vipers Nest and Mob Rule are excellent adventures. (I really think that basic Viper agent stats need to be lowered -imho). Nice thing about those is that Viper uses Supervillains and if a new GM wanted to customize the game, he can swap or add in his own villains easily.

 

Absolutely, good choices.  I've used the heck out of Vipers Nest myself, good adventure.

 

I only go with GRAB because I have used them allot and the new players I have run for tended to enjoy facing off against Supers more than minions for and intro.   For an intro campaign I'd reduce their point level to reflect a younger more inexperienced team.  In addition to GRAB, I'd add one or two really bad eggs that might result in the PC Heroes actually working with GRAB to stop them.  Talk about a dilemma for the Heroes

 

A series of scenarios that can be played in different orders depending on the choices and results of other events.  A bit of detective work, a dash of intrigue and liberal dose action. 

[Nolgroth]

Maybe not everything, but they do need to start pushing product. Evil Hat seems to be doing reasonably well with their Worlds of Fate Patreon, and I see no reason why Hero couldn't do something similar.

 

I think that, with a pretty solid market for PDF products, that would be a way for Hero to maybe start generating income. No physical book publishing costs up front. Of course, everything I said is a lot easier said than done. It's not like they have a backlog of manuscripts, art resources and layout artists just waiting on their beck and call. It is nice to see some of their old works hitting the PDF market. I know that I am saving every penny until I can start dumping money into buying many PDF books.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure, Print on Demand and electronic, focus on that market and work on bringing old content up to electronic files.

[steriaca]

Sure, Print on Demand and electronic, focus on that market and work on bringing old content up to electronic files.

Hero doesn't need us to tell then that. They'll do that anyways without us telling them. What we want is new blood entering the arena of Lost souls, and breathe new life into the Hero System so we don't have to ask about the health of the system anymore.

[Ninja-Bear]

One thing I was thinking is what is target group that Hero is trying to sell to? I would think that the bigger market would be kids and parents playing with kids. Yes some products could and should be aimed at more mature audience. I think that as a parent myself I would buy adventures more suitable for kids. For Champions, I'm thinking games that give you cartoon comic feel.

[Doc Democracy]

Actually, that is it.  A multiple volume slipcase thing could quite easily be

1) how to play the game

2) Powers, Skills, Complications etc

3) DC animated adventure style game

4) Avengers style game

5) Western Shores Fantasy game

6) Babylon 5 style game

 

I am thinking of the first two very much in the concise style of the recent rulebooks - very little in the way of examples, those would be for the playbooks.

 

I have suggested four playbooks - I am thinking maybe 16 pages.  Just an overview of what is in play - the basic rules of building that have been used, an example of the style, perhaps 6 pages discussing how to build things for this kind of game a very quick adventure with a map a villain and four pre-gens.  

 

Each playbook should allow anyone to pick up the game and, with the aid of book 1, play the game.  Four playbooks should be enough to showcase the diversity and there should be more playbooks to purchase...

 

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Character build for Supers for beginners. I'm really thinking 300 pt. is the way to go. I'm not saying versitile Hero aren't nice but when learning a new game, do you need six options to blast someone and have to learn how each modifier works? Maybe have optional builds in the back so players could swap out in the building phase and or buy with experience.

[Joe Walsh]

Right, just avoid Power Modifiers entirely with beginners. That still leaves the basic character archetypes, special effects, characteristics, skills, perks, talents, complications, backstory, and personality for differentiation.

[Lucius]

 

I'm sorry, but if you're going to not use Power Modifiers I would say just don't use Powers at all and stick with Skills and Talents. And predefined Equipment where you don't need to use the word "Focus" but it's intuitively obvious for example that someone with a gun can be disarmed.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Empowered palindromedary

[Joe Walsh]

I think keeping Powers gives additional flexibility without causing any real additional complication. They're just things to buy off the rack once you get rid of Power Modifiers.

 

I got the idea on re-reading Champions 2e. At the start of the Power Modifiers chapter, it says:

 

 Effective beginning characters can easily be built without any of the Power Modifiers. Experienced players, though, may wish to use the Power Modifiers to more exactly represent their character conceptions in game terms.

[Joe Walsh]

HERO System has had a rough time, no doubt about it. And it started right from the beginning, when the folks who created it didn't really want to be in the RPG publishing business. They did great work on it, and kept it going for many years. But ultimately, they decided they didn't want to be involved with their creation at all.

 

DOJ swooped in and saved it, and from 2002 through 2012 the fantastic new content flowed like water. But at the same time, DOJ chose to address as many FAQ items as possible within the core rules, expanding page count by leaps and bounds. That effort culminated with the two-volume 6th edition. But while all that was happening, the number of competitors HERO System faced in the market ramped up tremendously and signficant portions of the market decided smaller and simpler was better.

 

Recognizing this, in 2012 DOJ produced Champions Complete: a volume that very savvily trades on HERO System's strongest brand identity and cuts down the verbiage to sub-4th edition levels. All while presenting the most flexible version of HERO System ever produced.

 

So, here we are. DOJ has the strongest product offering it's had in years, but apparently isn't in a position to support it with additional content. That's being handled through third-party companies...and some great supplements indeed are being produced, with more planned!

 

What they need is for people to give HERO System another look. And what's needed for that to happen is for perceptions of the system to change. 

 

I think they are, at least a little. When discussions of the system happen on other boards, they're less negative than they used to be. And every once in a while, there's a post from someone new to the system.

 

We all recognize that it could -- should! -- be much more, and it frustrates us. So, every once in a while, we talk about what to do.

 

The beginners' products that have been discussed would be great, and I hope at least some of them come to fruition. But I think something we can all do to help HERO System is to raise its positive visibility by publicly using it in ways that show how approachable and fun it is. For example, running a CC game at a FLGS or doing something like Wakshaani's got going over on rpg.net, where he's putting together a campaign and building cool packages for players without letting it get complex. True, he's using 4e, but something similar could very easily be done with the finely tuned engine that is CC.

 

And, to be clear, it needs to be CC. Expounding on the virtues of 6e v1/v2 isn't going to help. We know that. CC is the current ruleset and it's more newbie-friendly than Hero System's been since the 90s. And it needs to be CC alone, as a single-volume solution. Not "Well, to really get going, you need to get these three other volumes, and this one is super helpful, and everyone should have that one, and...". The same can be said of the ways we use the system. Keep it simple. There's no need to define characters and their attributes to the Nth degree. Again, approachability is the key. The rest can come later, once people have discovered (or rediscovered) the fun of HERO System.

 

That's my take on it, anyway.

[Ninja-Bear]

Lucius for myself, I was thinking of using advantages just sparingly so. Limit attacks to one level so defense can be just one level for those who need it and no compound powers like AP and penetrating. I just think that a character that has multiple attacks because of multiple advantages slows new people down.

[Cantriped]

I am thinking of the first two very much in the concise style of the recent rulebooks - very little in the way of examples, those would be for the playbooks.

 

I have suggested four playbooks - I am thinking maybe 16 pages.  Just an overview of what is in play - the basic rules of building that have been used, an example of the style, perhaps 6 pages discussing how to build things for this kind of game a very quick adventure with a map a villain and four pre-gens.  

 

Each playbook should allow anyone to pick up the game and, with the aid of book 1, play the game.  Four playbooks should be enough to showcase the diversity and there should be more playbooks to purchase...

Fantasy Hero Complete​ came closer to providing a 'playbook' with its included Kingdom of Grischun micro setting (which comes in around 40 pages). It contained very little in the way of raw rules text (just a few sample magic items and monsters), but it does provide a decent setting overview and a more detailed description of a single area that can be used as a sandbox/launching pad for a larger campaign. In most cases, it simply refers to templates from FHC when giving suggestions for how to represent certain setting elements (such as races, professions, etc).

Honestly its hard to cover a meaningful amount of detail in less than 40 pages, so I don't think 16 pages will really cut it.

[Doc Democracy]

Honestly its hard to cover a meaningful amount of detail in less than 40 pages, so I don't think 16 pages will really cut it.

 

I think you should try aiming for 16 (as a discipline and, if it slips to 32, then so be it.  If you aim at 40 you will end up with 60 or more!! :-)