Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Joe Walsh]

Hmm...   I'm not going to say you're wrong.  But to me the differences between 6th and CC are almost non-existent.  More like two identical houses, one painted green and one painted blue.   To me there has never really been that many changes/differences between versions.

 

I think we're in agreement. I see the changes from 4e to 5e, from 5e to 5eR, and from 6e to CC, as small.  It was 5eR to 6e that was a large change. That's what I meant by saying CC is as much a new edition as 5e. I should have been clearer.

 

With 6e, there are small differences between it and CC that can trip the unwary. Coupled with 6e's presentation problems, it's just an all-around bad iteration for those new to the game. So I'm going to stick to CC/FHC and ignore the entire 6e line when it comes to anything related to attracting more gamers.

 

As for things that were built with CC, like the new Strikeforce, I'm undecided.

[Ninja-Bear]

I have a bunch of Basic villains that once I get Hero designer and time I wouldn't mind being posted. They are going to presented as a framework which other people would be free to adapt to their games.

[Ninja-Bear]

I think for a intro scenario, there should be tips on how to adjust the villains presented to the game groups specifics. I.e more damage, less damage, exotic attack and or defense, skill levels, etc.

[zslane]

More important than Campaign Settings are actual Campaigns and Scenarios. Settings themselves aren't very useful unless they are properly supported by Campaigns & Scenarios that allow GMs to easily run games in those settings without extensive preparation.

Yes, absolutely.

 

I consider "campaigns and scenarios" to be essential products in a product line that provides a complete campaign setting. Along with creature/villain/organization books, gazetteers, equipment books, etc. One of the best ways to convey the feel of a campaign setting is to provide epic storylines that GMs can throw the players into without having to work all that out on their own. If done properly (e.g., like Savage Worlds Plot Point campaigns), then there is ample room for GMs to improvise their own plot elements within the broader structure if they wish. But if not, there should be plenty of pre-built material for groups to play with minimal preparation.

[steriaca]

Here is my idea of a beginner's set for Champions.

 

Storage box.

 

Sheets of all pregenarated characters.

 

Paper Stanfield for all characters and villians and normals and vehicles.

 

Maps needed for the senerios.

 

Basic Hero System rulebook. No character creation rules in this book.

 

Senerios book, complete with all villains and agents needed.

 

Powers explanation book. Explains all the pregen's powers.

 

Advance book, explaining how to use Champions Complete with this box.

 

What do you think? Would this be the beginner's box set which would expand Hero for the next generation?

[Brian Stanfield]

Here is my idea of a beginner's set for Champions.

 

Storage box.

 

Sheets of all pregenarated characters.

 

Paper Stanfield for all characters and villians and normals and vehicles.

 

Maps needed for the senerios.

 

Basic Hero System rulebook. No character creation rules in this book.

 

Senerios book, complete with all villains and agents needed.

 

Powers explanation book. Explains all the pregen's powers.

 

Advance book, explaining how to use Champions Complete with this box.

 

What do you think? Would this be the beginner's box set which would expand Hero for the next generation?

 

Wait a minute, "Paper Stanfield" for all characters and villains?! How'd I suddenly get sucked into all of this?! I'm pretty sure you don't want the success of your product to depend on paper likenesses of me.   

 

Oh, what the heck . . . I'm game! Why not?    

[Brian Stanfield]

More important than Campaign Settings are actual Campaigns and Scenarios. Settings themselves aren't very useful unless they are properly supported by Campaigns & Scenarios that allow GMs to easily run games in those settings without extensive preparation. I think there are far more GMs who would purchase a Scenario with a generic setting than a specific setting without scenarios to run in it. Who wants to spend a whole bunch of time studying the history of a fictional world to run their game in, and then try to write scenarios that fit and present that world to their players?

 

A big part of what has made Paizo so successful was the quality and length of their scenarios. There are literally more than 12,000 pages worth of just Adventure Paths alone, all written to be plug-and-played in a single setting (which itself has thousands of pages of documentation now).

 

​I totally agree with this. I'm coming at this from the Fantasy Hero side of things, but the same principles apply (perhaps even more so). There are several campaign setting available for FH, and a new one provided for FHC. But I'm not really sold on any of these settings because they are a LOT of background information, which feels like a constraint, without all of the campaigns and scenarios that feel like a way to merge into the settings. If there were more actual campaign/adventure books to go with the settings, I'd be a lot more into them.

 

As it stands now, I use some of the third-party adventures by folks like Christopher R. Taylor (Kestrel Arts), who offer some basic insight of how they might be merged with settings, without completely constraining their use to those settings. This is ideal for me, and I think a good idea for any sort of beginning campaigns in any genre. Champions Universe is a great resource, with a rich history, but some simple beginning adventures with a minimal amount of required background knowledge seems like a really, REALLY, good idea.

 

As has been mentioned repeatedly, at this point it will have to be the third-party folks who make this happen.

[Cantriped]

@ Steriaca:

​Most of the Inside Contents looks good to me:

Storage? - Yes!

Pregenerated Sheets? - Yes!

Pawns for Characters/Vehicles? - Yes!

Maps? - Yes!

Scenarios complete with pregenerated villains and agents? - Hell Yes!

Three new rulebooks that inadequately replace the existing one? - Hell No!

 

You lost me at having a beginners box that contains three different rulebooks, yet doesn't cover the most pivotal aspects of the system in a satisfying fashion. There's no way to describe the system (including descriptions of Powers, Modifiers, etc) in adequate detail without also describing Character Generation in the process, and any attempt to do so won't be saving enough line space over CC to be worth the paper they're printed on. Instead of an entirely superfluous trio of rulebooks that cannot, by definition be sufficient, just package CC with the box (or make the box supplemental to CC) and be done with it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm more interested in introducing a campaign than introducing Champions as a game system. I don't want to teach people how to make their own game world, I want to give them one and help them jump into it easily and quickly.  I agree that scenarios published as adventures need to be more flexible, so they can be used in anyone's game, but they should be designed to fit seamlessly into the published campaign for ease of play as well.

[steriaca]

@ Steriaca:

​Most of the Inside Contents looks good to me:

Storage? - Yes!

Pregenerated Sheets? - Yes!

Pawns for Characters/Vehicles? - Yes!

Maps? - Yes!

Scenarios complete with pregenerated villains and agents? - Hell Yes!

Three new rulebooks that inadequately replace the existing one? - Hell No!

 

You lost me at having a beginners box that contains three different rulebooks, yet doesn't cover the most pivotal aspects of the system in a satisfying fashion. There's no way to describe the system (including descriptions of Powers, Modifiers, etc) in adequate detail without also describing Character Generation in the process, and any attempt to do so won't be saving enough line space over CC to be worth the paper they're printed on. Instead of an entirely superfluous trio of rulebooks that cannot, by definition be sufficient, just package CC with the box (or make the box supplemental to CC) and be done with it.

The idea is to pare down Champions Complete's rules, basically reprinting everything except for character creation. But, yes, it is "another set of rules". But, how are we going to sell a beginner's box and not include the rules?

[Ninja-Bear]

I don't a beginners box being a reality. Nice thought though. What I do see possible a basic module that can be written up and downloaded either super cheap or free.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I love the idea of it but yeah without some serious injection of cash and official effort by the company, not happening.  Its cheaper and easier than ever to do that kind of thing, there's a whole industry of board game makers now.

[steriaca]

Well, a beginning box could work. Maps, cardboard figures, generic pregens, Hero In Two Pages, dice. Just no adventure and rules (but we could have an index of characters and as plot seed book).

 

Just brainstorming.

[Ninja-Bear]

The million dollar question which I don't know how Hero can answer is -which approach works for the greatest amount of people to bring in new players?

[Ninja-Bear]

Well, a beginning box could work. Maps, cardboard figures, generic pregens, Hero In Two Pages, dice. Just no adventure and rules (but we could have an index of characters and as plot seed book).

 

Just brainstorming.

Oh I think it's a great brainstorm but with Hero's cash flow, is it viable? Maybe as a kickstarter it could be. I don't know for sure.

[zslane]

A "beginner's box" is perhaps a good way to give newcomers a taste of the system, but you don't want it becoming a variant system of its own that competes with the real thing for the hearts and minds of the players. This happened with the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kits. They were so complete and self-contained that the three kits, combined, formed a separate version of the full game that acquired almost as strong a following as the real thing. Now you have a split in the hobby and two product lines that one small company can't affford to support equally.

 

A beginner's set needs to be fun on its own, but has to be limited enough that players have no choice but to "graduate" to the full system fairly quickly. That's when an MHI-style campaign setting--and associated full product line--steps in and takes over. Except the Hero System doesn't have that for anything except the modern monster hunting genre, such as it is.

[Christopher R Taylor]

A kickstarter could work, games get starts all the time on there.  Just a question of someone willing to put in the time and effort, to make a great campaign, publicize it, and make it work.

[phoenix240]

A "beginner's box" is perhaps a good way to give newcomers a taste of the system, but you don't want it becoming a variant system of its own that competes with the real thing for the hearts and minds of the players. This happened with the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kits. They were so complete and self-contained that the three kits, combined, formed a separate version of the full game that acquired almost as strong a following as the real thing. Now you have a split in the hobby and two product lines that one small company can't affford to support equally.

 

A beginner's set needs to be fun on its own, but has to be limited enough that players have no choice but to "graduate" to the full system fairly quickly. That's when an MHI-style campaign setting--and associated full product line--steps in and takes over. Except the Hero System doesn't have that for anything except the modern monster hunting genre, such as it is.

 

This was something I was wondering about, if I insert my nostalgia blinded out of touch grognard's POV.  

 

How do you bridge new people from the Beginner's box, pregenerated campaigns and modules to the whole system, mainly the character creation aspect which is, IMO, where Hero System really shines and sets itself apart. As far as income goes, it doesn't matter if purchasers use these things with Hero System or Icon or Cortex Plus, of course but it would be a shame (to me) if the core special aspects of the system went unused and ignored. 

[Doc Democracy]

How you bridge is having PlayBooks or beginners boxes come with pre-gens with some basic customisation options. If you want a character that is truly your own, you need to delve into the system more deeply. If you don't want that you can transfer your pre-gen between PlayBooks.

 

The bit that shines for us might not burn so brightly for lots of other people.

[Chris Goodwin]

This was something I was wondering about, if I insert my nostalgia blinded out of touch grognard's POV.  

 

How do you bridge new people from the Beginner's box, pregenerated campaigns and modules to the whole system, mainly the character creation aspect which is, IMO, where Hero System really shines and sets itself apart. As far as income goes, it doesn't matter if purchasers use these things with Hero System or Icon or Cortex Plus, of course but it would be a shame (to me) if the core special aspects of the system went unused and ignored. 

 

Something like this:  

 

For the rest of the HERO System, pick up Champions Complete!

[Chris Goodwin]

A "beginner's box" is perhaps a good way to give newcomers a taste of the system, but you don't want it becoming a variant system of its own that competes with the real thing for the hearts and minds of the players. This happened with the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kits. They were so complete and self-contained that the three kits, combined, formed a separate version of the full game that acquired almost as strong a following as the real thing. Now you have a split in the hobby and two product lines that one small company can't affford to support equally.

 

A beginner's set needs to be fun on its own, but has to be limited enough that players have no choice but to "graduate" to the full system fairly quickly. That's when an MHI-style campaign setting--and associated full product line--steps in and takes over. Except the Hero System doesn't have that for anything except the modern monster hunting genre, such as it is.

 

The D&D 5e Starter Set includes a short campaign, five pregen characters using the Basic version of the D&D 5e rules, and enough rules to play the campaign.  By campaign I mean a linked series of adventures with enough setting (a portion of the Forgotten Realms) to play through the campaign, which is enough to get the characters to level 5.  The D&D 5e Basic rules are a subset of the full D&D rules.  Not different, just not all of them.  You could quite easily and happily -- for free, from Wizards, with their blessing -- download the D&D 5e Basic rules and play a campaign that goes from levels 1-20, as long as you and your players were happy with basic humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings for races, and basic clerics, fighters, rogues, and wizards for classes.  

 

Here's the fun bit though.  The basic rules are balanced enough with the full rules that you can use the full system to create characters to play through the starter set.  In your levels 1-20 Basic rules campaign, you could, partway through, add the Player's Handbook, and all of the options therein, and the new characters would be as balanced as the old ones.  

 

The difference between the 5e Basic rules and the 5e full ruleset isn't like the difference between red box Basic and AD&D 1e.  It's more like the difference between Fantasy Hero Complete and 6e v1/v2/Fantasy Hero.  

 

What we need is some kind of equivalent to the Starter Set, and IMO some kind of equivalent to the D&D 5e Basic Rules.  A short campaign set in a local area of one of the settings, pregen characters, just enough rules to play through the adventure with the pregen characters, and -- again IMO -- a free version of the system so that players can play a full campaign in the partial setting included, with their own characters.  It wouldn't be the full system, so that anyone who wanted to play the full system would have to buy the books, but it would be a subset of the full system.  Not incompatible, just partial.  

 

Any one of us, or any number of us could get together and build a HERO System equivalent to the D&D starter set, with the sole exception of including a free subset of the rules.  That is and always will be the sticking point.  

 

Certainly the owners and operators of DOJ and Hero Games may disagree with me that that's what's needed; I'm not a business expert, nor a publisher, and I'll admit that freely.  But I'm seeing the downward trajectory of Hero Games and the HERO System as much as anyone is, and while what they're doing may be supporting them and keeping their business going, it's not growing the HERO System.  

 

Edit to add:  I bought the D&D 5e Starter Kit for Christmas 2015, and the D&D 5e core books for my birthday in 2016.  I've been playing in a semi-regular campaign since then with a group of friends, about half who haven't played D&D since AD&D 1e, and about half who had little to no RPG experience.  Among that group, they've bought at least three copies of the Player's Handbook.  If there had been a HERO System equivalent I would have gotten them playing Hero instead, and those would have been Hero books they would have bought.  I'm going to try to get them all into Hero, but I'm starting to hear complaints from them about having bought the D&D books and polyhedral dice, they're not so sure they want to switch systems.  I can't blame them, so -- and here's the really crappy part -- I might end up not switching them to Hero at all.  That sucks as much ass as it is possible to suck, but that's reality.

[phoenix240]

How you bridge is having PlayBooks or beginners boxes come with pre-gens with some basic customisation options. If you want a character that is truly your own, you need to delve into the system more deeply. If you don't want that you can transfer your pre-gen between PlayBooks.

 

The bit that shines for us might not burn so brightly for lots of other people.

I guess I am severely out of touch. IME, most gamers want to make their own characters. While some prefer simpler chargen systems they want the ability to "roll their own" for extended play. The flexibility possible with Hero's char gen has been the major selling point for the game with people I've recruited. Frankly, there's much else about that is that stand out anymore. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

What we need is some kind of equivalent to the Starter Set, and IMO some kind of equivalent to the D&D 5e Basic Rules.  A short campaign set in a local area of one of the settings, pregen characters, just enough rules to play through the adventure with the pregen characters, and -- again IMO -- a free version of the system so that players can play a full campaign in the partial setting included, with their own characters.  It wouldn't be the full system, so that anyone who wanted to play the full system would have to buy the books, but it would be a subset of the full system.  Not incompatible, just partial. 

 

 

I agree, and a box set is an attractive way to do that: sheets, dice, some cards for spells, a book for players, a book for GMs and some adventures.

[zslane]

The 5e Starter Set works because it is, as has been pointed out, a subset of the full rules rather than a variant of them. Moreover, to play more D&D you have to move onto the full rules and the core books. Wizards did not perpetuate the simpler game experience by making "extensions" to the Starter Set, effectively turning it into its own product line that allowed players to continue using the free "basic" ruleset with newly published campaign material (Start Set 2, Starter Set 3, or "Starter Set Ravenloft", "Starter Set Dragon Queen Campaign", etc.). That is critical in my view.

 

There is a strong temptation to perpetuate a successful Beginner product, as was done with the Basic D&D line that ran parallel to AD&D for years. But I think that is ultimately detrimental to a small brand like Hero because I think we can afford to split the fanbase even less than we can afford to ignore the needs of potential newbies. I'm not saying that is where it's heading right now; I'm just trying to head that off at the pass so it never creeps there by accident (or design).

[phoenix240]

Something like this:  

 

For the rest of the HERO System, pick up Champions Complete!

 

 

 

 

Nice snark. I'm not trying to be dismissive but to participate the discussion (which I started). 

 

But that doesn't address my question. The proposed idea doesn't give prospective players a taste of what is, IMO, the meat of the system; what makes it something to engage. That aspect seem done and hidden behind the scenes (like most other systems). Pregen characters with some selectable options, the bare minimum of mechanics (likely mostly how to handle combat), some have proposed that the costs be hidden. These books sound like even using the Hero System with them is practically optional. Which as I said, is fine if the goal is selling books but selling the system seems like it might take something more involved. 

 

That's my concern with the current gist of the proposals.'I mean its all blue skying unless someone here is planning on buying rights to the Hero System but I thought we could discuss differing opinions politely.