PRE v EGO

[Surrealone]

Sadly, EGO is darn near the new COM of the 6e world since its only real play outside of resisting mentalists' effects (including breakout rolls) is ... EGO rolls.  That said, I don't see that as a good reason to use EGO to devalue PRE, but that's me.

[Rhino]

I like having strong-willed characters that want to resist PRE attacks, but don't want to have a forceful personality, buy PRE (only to resist PRE attacks -1).

[Grailknight]

Con is the new Com. It has very little use beyond resisting being Stunned.

[Vondy]

Con is the new Com. It has very little use beyond resisting being Stunned.

In many games not being stunned is the difference between victory and defeat, escape or capture, or even life and a coup de grace. It still retains vital utility in combat. Com, which I like, never did

[Tasha]

Sadly, EGO is darn near the new COM of the 6e world since its only real play outside of resisting mentalists' effects (including breakout rolls) is ... EGO rolls.  That said, I don't see that as a good reason to use EGO to devalue PRE, but that's me.

 

Presence is actually Pretty darned cheap for everything it does.

Presence attacks (Can be combat ending)

Presence Defense (prevents Presence attacks from effecting the character as much)

Presence Skills (All interaction skills use this stat for their base roll)

 

Allowing Ego to sometimes be presence defense isn't devaluing Presence by much, and makes Ego a slightly nicer stat to buy up.

Ego is used for Resisting Mental Abilities

Over coming Psychological Limitations (at least Moderate or Strong ones)

Pushing (in Heroic Games vs Supers)

Sometimes resisting some Presence Skills (Another good reason to allow Ego to resist Pre Attacks because many Pre skill are resisted with an Ego Roll and not a Presence roll).

 

YMMV

[Surrealone]

Presence is actually Pretty darned cheap for everything it does.

Presence attacks (Can be combat ending)

Presence Defense (prevents Presence attacks from effecting the character as much)

Presence Skills (All interaction skills use this stat for their base roll)

 

Allowing Ego to sometimes be presence defense isn't devaluing Presence by much, and makes Ego a slightly nicer stat to buy up.

Ego is used for Resisting Mental Abilities

Over coming Psychological Limitations (at least Moderate or Strong ones)

Pushing (in Heroic Games vs Supers)

Sometimes resisting some Presence Skills (Another good reason to allow Ego to resist Pre Attacks because many Pre skill are resisted with an Ego Roll and not a Presence roll).

 

YMMV

Whether it devalues it by 'much' is a matter of opinion.  That said, devaluation is devaluation, and I think we're both agreed that such uses of EGO -do- serve to devalue PRE. 

 

As for your EGO use list, most of the items you listed that didn't involve substitution for PRE... entail EGO rolls.  Honestly, 2pt skill levels with EGO rolls make a lot more 'economic' sense when character building than raw EGO does ... for non-mentalists.  It's not just economics/efficiency at play, either, as there's a subtle but important distinction between raw EGO and skill at making EGO rolls -- it's the difference between raw willpower (i.e. actual EGO) ... and the skill of focusing the mind to exert one's will.  Most normals (whether skilled, competent, etc.) have some of the latter and little, if any, of the former, while historic figures whose names we all know (Carnegie, Edison, Bonaparte, Hitler, Reagan, Thatcher, Gates, etc., etc.) have quite a bit of the former (in addition to PRE) ... and probably a good bit of the latter, too.

 

But I digress.

 

CON isn't the new COM; it was and still is good for resisting drugs, infection, and stun effects.  It's also decent for determining how long breath can be held, how long someone might have in a vacuum before the blood boiling effect begins to take a major toll, etc.  As Tasha said, it's often make/break in fights - and it's value has remained constant in the Hero System as a result.

[Doc Democracy]

Can you elaborate?

I was thinking that a character with low EGO but high PRE who is being Mind Controlled, especially if the special effect is, for example fear based, might think the mentalist should have to gain multiples of his PRE rather than his EGO.

 

Seems fair do to me...

 

Doc

[bigdamnhero]

Con is the new Com. It has very little use beyond resisting being Stunned.

That's a non-trivial feature in my experience.

 

As for EGO vs PRE, I normally let people use PRE or EGO whichever is higher if it seems appropriate to the situation (such as trying to force someone to do something they don't want to do).

 

I also use PRE Rolls a lot as a kind of social intelligence in situations where it makes more sense than an INT-based Perception check, such as noticing that the person you're talking to is nervous or lying and so forth.

[Christopher R Taylor]

You could just buy your fear-based effects to target presence rather than Ego (maybe a -1/4 limitation, depending on the campaign).

[Grailknight]

Change being Stunned to taking >50% of your current Stun. Move all the purely optional Con roles to Body and you're done with taking Con out of the game.

 

You'll see higher Stun totals vs defense creep and higher Body (15-20) IME but not much other change. Combats are shorther by 1-2 phases.

[Doc Democracy]

You could just buy your fear-based effects to target presence rather than Ego (maybe a -1/4 limitation, depending on the campaign).

I could do that but I cannot guarantee everyone else will. :-)

[Surrealone]

Change being Stunned to taking >50% of your current Stun. Move all the purely optional Con roles to Body and you're done with taking Con out of the game.

 

You'll see higher Stun totals vs defense creep and higher Body (15-20) IME but not much other change. Combats are shorther by 1-2 phases.

 

And also get complaints about making the game 'more mathy' ... from people who can't be bothered to do simple division.

 

​Not an issue for me, but the 'too much math' perception is a real one when it comes to how people new to Hero System perceive it.  That's probably why CON is still around...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Wouldn't make things any easier.  All it does is delete a useful stat without any increase in ease or play

[Tasha]

Wouldn't make things any easier.  All it does is delete a useful stat without any increase in ease or play

 

Ex for resisting being Stunned. Con is pretty darned worthless now. It would be interesting to set the Stun number to half Purchased Stun. The only reason that I don't really advocate for that is that it would be making a new Figured characteristic and the new entry would be Con with another name that doesn't have a good way to be bought up or down.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I use CON a lot in heroic games, stuff like how many potions you can handle at once, avoiding being sick, that kind of thing.  Stripping a stat away seems pointless to me

[Surrealone]

I see it used a lot for similar things at the heroic level.

 

Examples:

• CON roll to avoid sea sickness;
• CON roll to avoid air sickness if someone's never flown before;
• CON roll to handle a lot of time in high heat with nothing to drink;
• CON roll to eat bugs for sustenance if someone's not from a culture that eats bugs;
• CON roll to avoid coughing fits on smoggy days in Beijing; and
• CON roll to ... you get the idea.

[Lucius]

I use CON a lot in heroic games, stuff like how many potions you can handle at once, avoiding being sick, that kind of thing.  Stripping a stat away seems pointless to me

 

So, how many Characteristics does Hero System have?

 

Do you honestly think having so many Characteristics that have to be filled in to create a character does not add to the perception that Hero System is more complicated than it needs to be?

 

Realistically, I don't expect a new edition any time soon. But ideally, I'd like to see fewer Characteristics among other reforms.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[Doc Democracy]

So, how many Characteristics does Hero System have?

 

Do you honestly think having so many Characteristics that have to be filled in to create a character does not add to the perception that Hero System is more complicated than it needs to be?

 

Realistically, I don't expect a new edition any time soon. But ideally, I'd like to see fewer Characteristics among other reforms.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

 

You know, I mentioned in the Ditching the SPD chart thread that I would like to see this concept brought into the modern day - a new generation system.  I think characteristics is another thing that makes HERO feel like a first generation game.

 

In the discussion of HERO's health thread where there is a current examination of skills it was pointed out that their use can be pretty flexible but the rules are not explicit on how to implement that for your game.  I think that the use of characteristics could be flexible and GMs could utilise what they needed and wanted for their game.

 

Some characteristics would be difficult to remove - STUN and BODY in one form or another are how you keep score.  OCV and DCV are necessary in one way or another.  But even these I can see taking away from the right game.

 

In a heroic game you can tell people what they can do and change everything from the baseline by designing powers and using skills to deliver those things.  You could take away damage and tell folk that if someone hits them in combat they make an 15- roll to avoid falling unconscious.  This drops by one or more with each hit until you fail and the lower down your roll is the longer you take to wake up.  Different feel to combat but removes the need for PD, ED, STUN and BODY.  I would use this in a cartoon-y style game.  I could probably think of other places.

 

It would be good for a new edition of the system to really think about the core conceit of HERO and see how that can be delivered with a more modern approach to making an RPG engine.  Much of the periphery would remain but the core mechanics and the guidance on how to develop a game would be much more explicit.

 

This would have to be a two volume beast - one with the engine and tools - another with a game made using the engine (I suggest Champions - a four colour superhero game) where the design decisions on getting there are explicit in sidebars etc.  You can then release new games, multiple genres of superheroes where different design decisions are made to effect really substantial changes in gameplay.

 

Those would involve not just decisions about powers (and how they might be used) but the skill system and what if any characteristics would be used in the gameplay.

 

Doc

 

PS: that turned into a much longer post than I thought it was going to be....  :-S

[Nolgroth]

I'd allow for either PRE or EGO to resist Presence Attacks. I have this view that the primary six characteristics can be divided up as such;

 

Strength and Presence...are both about projecting power.

Dexterity and Intelligence...are about quickness.

Constitution and Ego...are about weathering hardships.

 

Defending against a Presence attack is either going to be countering it with your own personal power (PRE) or just being mentally tough enough to resist it (EGO), I have no problem with either.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Do you honestly think having so many Characteristics that have to be filled in to create a character does not add to the perception that Hero System is more complicated than it needs to be?

Its possible, but Hero doesn't actually have that many characteristics as compared to other games.

For example, D&D 5th edition has

STR

DEX

CON

INT

WIS

CHA

Then there's Armor Class (with and without Dex modifiers, for touch attacks)

Hit Points

Spell attack modifier

Spell save modifier

Initiative

Speed

Attack Mods (for each weapon)

Proficiency Bonus

Passive Wisdom (perception)

Alignment

Each of these stats is referred to regularly in play, and can be modified separately through equipment and leveling.

 

So while the perception might be of more complication in stats for Hero, objectively, that's not really an issue.

 

Removing a stat from the game decreases its flexibility in design options.

[Mister E]

Talent (STR)

Skill (DEX/INT/PRE)

& Luck (CON & EGO)

[Christopher R Taylor]

So... you'd rather play GURPS.

[Lucius]

OCV and DCV are necessary in one way or another.

Not as Characteristics. That work can be done with Combat Skill Levels.

 

Yes, they would still exist as values used in the game, but I am talking in this case about changing how Hero is perceived. and cutting out 4 Characteristics (OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV) which is close to a quarter of the total Characterics strikes me as a helpful move in that respect.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes it is less radical than other ideas being bandied about.

[ghost-angel]

You could probably block it out as

 

Characteristics

STR, DEX, CON, INT, EGO, PRE

 

Combat

Combat Values [OCV, DCV, DMCV, OMCV], SPD, Defenses [PD, ED], REC, END, BODY, STUN

 

Movement

Running, Swimming, Leaping

 

Body could arguably be moved to Characteristics, but it's primary use it How Dead Am I? in Combat.

 

The Hero Character sheet has always been a User Interface mess IMO, and I agree with Lucius that breaking apart the current "Characteristics" block in Hero would go a long way to helping with that interface. The current sheet lists the Combat stats above twice - there is no need for that in a properly presented game.

[bigdamnhero]

Agreed. The character sheet I use breaks them down like this:

 

Characteristics: STR, DEX, CON, INT, EGO, PRE, SPD (base OCV, DCV, OMCV & DMCV noted here for reference only)

Movement:

Defenses: PD, ED, others

Damage: STUN, BODY, END, REC

Attacks: main attacks broken down including DCV, relevant CSLs, etc.