MetaMax Superprison

[Doomslayer]

I working on a new super prison concept.   The basics are: Since the emergence of Super Powered individuals, the UN cooperated in the construction of a prison to contain and study these threats.

 

MetaMax(The Super Prison) is located in Antarctica near the south pole.  There is a 500 kilometer no fly zone around the facility referred to as the Red Zone where unauthorized air/space craft may be shot down with impunity.  A yellow restricted fly zone continues to 1000 kilometers around the facility. 

 

The facility receives it's primary power from a Nuclear Power Plant located just under 6 kilometers from the prison complex.  Buried heavy duty power cables are used to supply power from this generating plant to the prison complex.  Backup gas turbine generators are also located within the prison complex.

 

The air defenses consist of a squadron of F-14 D+ fighters, several MEADS mobile grounds batteries around both the prison complex and the nuclear power plant.  And, LaWS Laser weapon Defense installation.  -  Does anyone have good stats I could use for the MEADS and LaWS systems?

 

The prison has a Russian warden by the name of Dmitri Yerofeyev.  It also utilizes a Cray XE6 mainframe(isolated with no wifi) as a supplemental/backup warden.  4 other mainframes exist(1 for logistics in the prison complex, 1 to coordinate the Air Defenses, 1 to run the Nuclear Power Plant, and 1 for the Nuclear Power Plant logistics).

 

Does anyone have any suggestion on maps and software to map out this facility?

 

Below are 2 videos of the air defense weapon systems deployed here.  Needs good stats for these.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RstnLnjSh0E

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0DbgNju2wE

 

 

 

[bigdamnhero]

The 5th Edition Stronghold source book has some really good stuff in it, including maps and the like, that you could easily copy over to Antarctica. I do like the idea of having more outwardly-facing military-grade weaponry to defend the prison from outside incursions - I feel like that's one thing that was weak in the Stronghold book. The only significant change I made to Stronghold in my world was to put an Army base around it.

[Christopher]

The 5th Edition Stronghold source book has some really good stuff in it, including maps and the like, that you could easily copy over to Antarctica. I do like the idea of having more outwardly-facing military-grade weaponry to defend the prison from outside incursions - I feel like that's one thing that was weak in the Stronghold book. The only significant change I made to Stronghold in my world was to put an Army base around it.

If the prision is taken over by the inmates, the outward facing weapons effectively become a fortress. Look at the "Lockdown" storyline of Megallan to see how that can backfire:

http://magellanverse.com/lockedown/

Also with Air/Land defenses, you lock all incursions into subterranean/underwater approaches. Inlcuding the Superheroic ones.

 

So you definitely want those defenses to be not integral part of the walls.

The primary purpose of a Prision is to keep the Prisioners in, not potential incursions out.

 

Also how does that interact with the Ant-Arctica Treaties? They usually prohibit putting military weapons there.

[bigdamnhero]

The primary purpose of a Prision is to keep the Prisioners in, not potential incursions out.

Sure, but that's because most normal prisoners don't have superpowered friends/employers that are capable of breaking them out by force. If you don't have some serious outward-facing defenses, then your super-prison just becomes a recruiting shop for boss villains to recruit new minions & lieutenants. But I agree you don't want those controls anywhere the prisoners can potentially get to.

[freakboy6117]

I wouldn't put the nuke plant outside the prison it would actually be safer to have it within the compound.

 

firstly if your at the south pole your going to need the waste heat to make your prison live-able

 

secondly it stops you needing a separate staff and defense force to protect it

 

third you can use it as a weapon of laast resort melting it down to prevent escape

 

fourthly makes for much higher stakes and an interesting fight when the inevitable break out happens

[Badger]

If the prision is taken over by the inmates, the outward facing weapons effectively become a fortress. Look at the "Lockdown" storyline of Megallan to see how that can backfire:

http://magellanverse.com/lockedown/

Also with Air/Land defenses, you lock all incursions into subterranean/underwater approaches. Inlcuding the Superheroic ones.

 

So you definitely want those defenses to be not integral part of the walls.

The primary purpose of a Prision is to keep the Prisioners in, not potential incursions out.

 

Also how does that interact with the Ant-Arctica Treaties? They usually prohibit putting military weapons there.

 

Ant-Arctica?

 

I think I have an idea for a snow-themed insectoid character.

[Christopher]

I wouldn't put the nuke plant outside the prison it would actually be safer to have it within the compound.

 

firstly if your at the south pole your going to need the waste heat to make your prison live-able

 

secondly it stops you needing a separate staff and defense force to protect it

 

third you can use it as a weapon of laast resort melting it down to prevent escape

 

fourthly makes for much higher stakes and an interesting fight when the inevitable break out happens

To 3, let me get this straight:

You want to trigger a literal Radiation Accident in the middle of a compound full of already dangerous and powerfull criminals, not all of wich had literal radiation accidents before?

 

I am not sure if we should put the designer in there (due to insane levels of negligence) or if he might be hoping we put him in there, so he is around for when that horribly backfires.

 

Geothermal power might be a much better idea. No radiation, much lesser security risk. And Geothermal energy is surprisingly abundant:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/13/geothermal_heat_from_planets_core_is_melting_the_west_antarctic_ice/

http://news.ucsc.edu/2015/07/antarctic-heating.html

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/15/study-surprisingly-high-amounts-of-geothermal-heat-melting-antarctica/

 

Also can not be used to power the average villain McGuffin as easily as the nuclear option.

[Nolgroth]

I like the geo-thermal power idea. Always a favorite.

[freakboy6117]

To 3, let me get this straight:

You want to trigger a literal Radiation Accident in the middle of a compound full of already dangerous and powerfull criminals, not all of wich had literal radiation accidents before?

 

I am not sure if we should put the designer in there (due to insane levels of negligence) or if he might be hoping we put him in there, so he is around for when that horribly backfires.

 

 

 

absolutely its a classic trope honestly I should have made it point 5 when the villains inevitably escape you have an excuse to give them a power boost

[Michael Hopcroft]

I've often wondered about the ethics involved in a super-prison on such a high level. How do you treat the prisoners? Is it ethically acceptable to do things like put a prisoner you feel is exceptionally dangerous under some form of suspended animation? Or is there a way to contain really powerful prisoners that is at all humane?

 

And that doesn;t even raised the question of whether people can be detained there before trial (because they're perceived as too dangerous for standard confinement, Or perhaps with even no prospect of a trial (like most of the remaining inmates at Guantanamo, against whom there seems to be no interest in pursuing criminal proceedings). Do some of the normal standards for due process slip when dealing with someone like Grond, who is incredibly powerful but probably only dimly aware of his surroundings or even identity?

[Christopher]

I've often wondered about the ethics involved in a super-prison on such a high level. How do you treat the prisoners? Is it ethically acceptable to do things like put a prisoner you feel is exceptionally dangerous under some form of suspended animation? Or is there a way to contain really powerful prisoners that is at all humane?

 

And that doesn;t even raised the question of whether people can be detained there before trial (because they're perceived as too dangerous for standard confinement, Or perhaps with even no prospect of a trial (like most of the remaining inmates at Guantanamo, against whom there seems to be no interest in pursuing criminal proceedings). Do some of the normal standards for due process slip when dealing with someone like Grond, who is incredibly powerful but probably only dimly aware of his surroundings or even identity?

The idea behind a prision is relatively simple and goes back to the Ethics of freedom:

"You are free to do whatever you want to do, as long as you do not interfere with the freedom and wellbeing of another person."

Prisions are at the same time a punishment for the crime and a protection of the General Populace from you (because you have issues with the non-negative interference part).

Whatever they have to do to keep you locked up, they are justified to do it. Or they would be force to just kill you instead, because you can not be contained.

 

Can't find the part of Grrl Power that dealt with incarceration right now.

 

Guantanamo is a iffy thing here.

It kind of is a way for America to detain person "that are likely to harm it", but they have no legal standing to incarcerate them.

They can justify at least for themself that those persons pose a danger. But at the same time they did not trust local authorities to deal with them.

[bigdamnhero]

I've often wondered about the ethics involved in a super-prison on such a high level. How do you treat the prisoners? Is it ethically acceptable to do things like put a prisoner you feel is exceptionally dangerous under some form of suspended animation? Or is there a way to contain really powerful prisoners that is at all humane?

The idea of "hot sleep" (to use the Stronghold term) would certainly be heavily litigated to determine whether or not it consisted cruel and unusual punishment. But bottom line if that's the only way they can hold someone, I suspect the bar for cruel & unusual would be raised considerably and quickly in a world with superpowers.

 

And that doesn;t even raised the question of whether people can be detained there before trial (because they're perceived as too dangerous for standard confinement, Or perhaps with even no prospect of a trial (like most of the remaining inmates at Guantanamo, against whom there seems to be no interest in pursuing criminal proceedings). Do some of the normal standards for due process slip when dealing with someone like Grond, who is incredibly powerful but probably only dimly aware of his surroundings or even identity?

Without getting into Gitmo (wrong forum...) the difference between "held pending trial" and "held indefinitely without trial" is kindof not subtle. As long as the government has probable cause to arrest you, and can convince a judge you need to be held until trial (typically because you're a danger or a flight risk) then where they hold you isn't relevant. We typically distinguish between jails for pre-trial and prisons for post-conviction, but that's really an administrative distinction not a legal requirement AFAIK.

[massey]

Only briefly touching on Gitmo, the arguments there (as I recall) are that you've got this group of people who were most likely engaged in hostile activity, but actually bringing them to trial creates all sorts of problems.  How do you allow them to prepare a defense, which is going to involve calling witnesses and conducting investigations, etc, without also letting them get warnings to their buddies?  How can you turn over the evidence used in their arrest, when it's from a secret program that is still being used to catch other bad guys?  How do you have witnesses testify when they're secret informants who might be killed by their own governments for cooperating with you?  And then you're dealing with the fact that some of these guys may not have actually violated any US laws that you can prove.  You're in the position where killing him with a bomb is a-okay, but putting him in jail raises all kinds of hard legal questions.

 

Moving the discussion to supers, look at the Abomination in the Incredible Hulk movie.  Here you've got one of the most powerful beings on the planet.  He's been beaten unconscious by one of the other most powerful beings on the planet.  He's got a constitutional right to confront his accusers.  But that involves letting him wake up.  And once he wakes up, no prison can hold him.  Bruce Banner has disappeared off to who knows where.  Are you going to subpoena the Hulk to have him come testify about why these two fought?  If he wakes up, and he decides he'd rather smash New York City again rather than meet with his defense lawyer, what do you do?  Do you count on a private citizen (Banner) to risk his life in a fight again and just hope that he wins?  If you are prosecuting someone like Loki, how do you prove inter-dimensional shenanigans?  It's one thing to point at an outer space army, but when somebody's got an alien mind control stick, how do you show that he's the guy who is using it, and not just that he was controlled by it?

 

My guess would be that when guys are too powerful and too dangerous, they probably get a very limited hearing before they are detained in the super-prison.  Somebody like Stane (had he lived) or Red Skull (had he lived) are one thing.  You can lock them up and give them a trial.  They aren't so powerful that you can't risk them ever regaining consciousness, and their crimes aren't so weird and unbelievable that you will have a hard time proving them.  Imagine prosecuting a time traveler, where half of his plan was done centuries ago, and the other half he hasn't actually done yet.  So for those guys, there's probably some sort of hearing for indefinite detention, until you can figure out how to safely prosecute them.  You don't put the criminal on trial when he's still holed up in his hideout with a gun.  You arrest him, disarm him, and then put him on trial.  So for a lot of these guys, they've been arrested, but not disarmed yet.  So you've got a brief hearing to hold them until you figure out how to turn the Abomination back into Emil Blonsky.  Then he can go to trial, but until then, he's not waking up.

 

The closest thing in normal criminal court is a competency proceeding.  Joe Criminal is so crazy that he thinks the moon is telling him to eat his own foot.  He only manages to scarf down three toes before you get him restrained.  Then he goes off to the loony bin while they try to get him on some meds that will help him become competent again.  In the meantime, his criminal case is on hold.  Some guys never regain competency.  You could have the same thing with super-crime.  The case is put on indefinite hold until such time as a way is determined to neutralize their powers and disarm them.

[bigdamnhero]

I think they'd be more likely to hold his trial in absentia rather than just say indefinite hold. But it's a fair point.

[Christopher]

Moving the discussion to supers, look at the Abomination in the Incredible Hulk movie.  Here you've got one of the most powerful beings on the planet.  He's been beaten unconscious by one of the other most powerful beings on the planet.  He's got a constitutional right to confront his accusers.  But that involves letting him wake up.  And once he wakes up, no prison can hold him.  Bruce Banner has disappeared off to who knows where.  Are you going to subpoena the Hulk to have him come testify about why these two fought?  If he wakes up, and he decides he'd rather smash New York City again rather than meet with his defense lawyer, what do you do?  Do you count on a private citizen (Banner) to risk his life in a fight again and just hope that he wins?  If you are prosecuting someone like Loki, how do you prove inter-dimensional shenanigans?  It's one thing to point at an outer space army, but when somebody's got an alien mind control stick, how do you show that he's the guy who is using it, and not just that he was controlled by it?

Banner actually had cured himself of the Hulk and was ina Helicopter with both Ross way above the city.

Then the Abdomination appeared and started attacking local Police force and Citizen, demand for Hulk to fight him.

That was the point at wich Banner decided to intentionally transform back into the Hulk.

I do not see how you need Hulk or Banner in Abdominations/Emil Blonkies trial. You have dozen of eye witnesses for the Abdominations misdeeds, one of wich is a Multiple-Star General.

 

Actually since Blonksy was part of the Hulk Taskforce, this might even fall under Military rights.

Edit: And here is the early part of that Fight, Abdomination vs the City Police and a Scoutteam (poor quality):

 

 

Also wasn't Loki usually judged by Odin, the King of Asgard?

They seemed to have treated Asgard like any other Country with a Extradiction Agreement and working legal System as far as Asgardian villains are concerned.

[Wardsman]

I do not see how you need Hulk or Banner in Abdominations/Emil Blonkies trial. You have dozen of eye witnesses for the Abdominations misdeeds, one of wich is a Multiple-Star General.

 

Because we have this thing called the constitution. You may have heard of it.

[massey]

Banner actually had cured himself of the Hulk and was ina Helicopter with both Ross way above the city.

Then the Abdomination appeared and started attacking local Police force and Citizen, demand for Hulk to fight him.

That was the point at wich Banner decided to intentionally transform back into the Hulk.

I do not see how you need Hulk or Banner in Abdominations/Emil Blonkies trial. You have dozen of eye witnesses for the Abdominations misdeeds, one of wich is a Multiple-Star General.

 

Actually since Blonksy was part of the Hulk Taskforce, this might even fall under Military rights.

Edit: And here is the early part of that Fight, Abdomination vs the City Police and a Scoutteam (poor quality):

 

 

Also wasn't Loki usually judged by Odin, the King of Asgard?

They seemed to have treated Asgard like any other Country with a Extradiction Agreement and working legal System as far as Asgardian villains are concerned.

 

Well, the point was really about the difficulties of prosecuting super-crime, not a specific analysis of that movie.  But let's stick with the Abomination example for now.

 

So let's look at the problems that you've got.  Blonsky has just been knocked unconscious by the Hulk.  You strap him down and fly him off with helicopters to some secret base somewhere, and you are going to try to keep him unconscious so that he doesn't break out.  Then somebody decides, for whatever reason, that they're going to prosecute him in court.  So what issues do we have?

 

First problem -- has General Ross covered his ass properly?  He is the one who gave Blonsky the serum that turned him into the Abomination.  I doubt he wants a lot of people to know that.  What information has he hidden?  Ross is Secretary of State later, so clearly his career wasn't hurt too badly.

Second problem -- do people know that the Abomination is Emil Blonsky?  It's probably better for Ross if people think the Abomination is just some random monster and not a military-financed attempted counter for the Hulk.  Apparently they reference him in Agents of SHIELD, and they know who he is.  But that doesn't mean that information is shared with the NYC District Attorney, or whatever federal prosecutor is involved.  This is important because if they don't know who he is, then they aren't going to be getting all the witnesses they need.

Third problem -- nobody other than Ross and Banner (and maybe Betty, it's been a while since I saw the movie) really know what happened.  Random witnesses on the street only saw a tiny fraction of what took place.

Fourth problem -- your on-the-ground eye witnesses saw a very limited amount of stuff and are going to have a problem with identification.  They don't know who Blonsky is.  They just saw a monster.

Fifth problem -- Blonsky has a right to be present at his trial, and to present a defense.  How do you afford him that right when he can bust out of the courtroom?

 

 

 

If I were the defense attorney in this case, here's what I'd argue.  Emil Blonsky is a hero, who was injected with a special secret military serum, so that he could stop the Hulk.  All those people who were killed in New York?  The Hulk did that.  Blonsky fought him to a standstill, but eventually 'Hulk Smash!' and Blonsky was knocked unconscious.  The Hulk fled, and police and military personnel arriving at the scene just assumed that Blonsky was the monster.  He's not.  He's the hero.

 

Watch the video again, and look and see which witnesses actually saw more than 1% of the rampage.  We got to see everything in HD video, from the safety of our seats.  But a witness at the scene doesn't have that perspective.  Most of them see things over very long distances, through smoke and fire.  Or they're turning and running.  Or they're dead.  To them, it's like seeing the monster in Cloverfield.  There's a 12 foot tall green monster that you've never seen before, you saw him for a second and a half.  How can you distinguish between one twelve foot tall green monster and another?

 

The jury doesn't get to watch the movie.  They get told little bits and pieces from a handful of witnesses.  Half the witnesses probably think they were attacked by the Hulk already.

[massey]

Most of your witnesses are going to give testimony something like this:

 

Random NYC cop:  "I was walking my beat, when I heard some explosions.  I ran a few blocks to see what was happening.  There was a big fire and a lot of smoke.  Then this huge thing went racing past me, throwing cars as it went.  I ducked under a flying taxicab, and I drew my gun, but by then the thing was gone."

 

Random guy in car:  "I was stuck in traffic, and then I heard all these explosions.  I tried to see what was going on, but everything was pretty dark.  There was a lot of smoke.  Then this big green giant appeared out of nowhere, kicked the front of my car, and I skidded across 4 lanes of traffic into a building.  My arm was broken in 3 places."

Lawyer:  "Can you identify the big green monster that kicked you?"

Guy in car:  "Not really, no.  It all happened so fast..."

 

Random military guy:  "I was assigned to the Hulk Task Force.  I was in a Humvee, and we had a rocket launcher.  We were deployed to the Bronx.  I saw explosions maybe a quarter mile ahead of us.  Through the fire, I saw a huge figure that was smashing cars and flinging them through the air.  I fired my rocket launcher at it.  The rocket didn't do anything except attract its attention.  Then in like 5 seconds it was on top of us.  I didn't get a good look at it, but it was holding a car, and it hit out Humvee with the car.  Now I'm in a wheelchair."

 

 

--

 

Without Banner or Ross, you don't know who started the fight.  You don't know which monster was in which location, or when.  You just know two things tore up half the city.  One is apparently "good" and the other is apparently "bad", but watching that video I didn't see anybody who would help you distinguish the two.  Now imagine other types of super fights, and how few people witness enough to put all the pieces together.

 

"They say that my client is Loki, the Norse god of mischief.  But my client is just poor old Tom Hiddleston, an amateur actor with no criminal record or super-powers.  Here we see from this video from Berlin, that Loki is a master of illusions and shape-changing.  My poor client just happened to be the one Loki chose to base his appearance on."  With nobody from Asgard showing up to say this is the actual real Loki (not that they would know either)...

[massey]

I think they'd be more likely to hold his trial in absentia rather than just say indefinite hold. But it's a fair point.

 

Trials in absentia generally require that the defendant waive the right to his appearance.  That can happen when the trial begins, and the defendant flees.  But the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure wouldn't allow you to keep somebody in cold sleep and then proceed with a trial without ever waking him up.  That's why I said putting the case on an indefinite hold, similar to a competency evaluation, would probably be better.  Once you figure out how to turn him back into a non-powered form, trial could proceed as normal.

 

Think of it this way.  Let's say that you've got a normal, non-powered, regular old bank robber.  And the bank robber shoots a cop, and he flees in his getaway car, and he misses a turn and drives off a bridge.  You definitely want to prosecute this guy, but he's in a coma in the hospital.  You don't know when, or if, he'll ever wake up.  We'll say that you're even keeping the guy in a medically-induced coma until all the brain swelling goes down, because letting him wake up could kill him.  So you file the charges, and then the trial is suspended indefinitely while he is medically incapacitated.  The only difference here is that you're keeping the Abomination medically incapacitated because he'll probably go on a rampage if he wakes up.  Letting him wake up is a threat to other people, instead of being a threat to himself.

[Christopher]

Well, the point was really about the difficulties of prosecuting super-crime, not a specific analysis of that movie.  But let's stick with the Abomination example for now.

 

So let's look at the problems that you've got.  Blonsky has just been knocked unconscious by the Hulk.  You strap him down and fly him off with helicopters to some secret base somewhere, and you are going to try to keep him unconscious so that he doesn't break out.  Then somebody decides, for whatever reason, that they're going to prosecute him in court.  So what issues do we have?

 

First problem -- has General Ross covered his ass properly?  He is the one who gave Blonsky the serum that turned him into the Abomination.  I doubt he wants a lot of people to know that.  What information has he hidden?  Ross is Secretary of State later, so clearly his career wasn't hurt too badly.

Second problem -- do people know that the Abomination is Emil Blonsky?  It's probably better for Ross if people think the Abomination is just some random monster and not a military-financed attempted counter for the Hulk.  Apparently they reference him in Agents of SHIELD, and they know who he is.  But that doesn't mean that information is shared with the NYC District Attorney, or whatever federal prosecutor is involved.  This is important because if they don't know who he is, then they aren't going to be getting all the witnesses they need.

Third problem -- nobody other than Ross and Banner (and maybe Betty, it's been a while since I saw the movie) really know what happened.  Random witnesses on the street only saw a tiny fraction of what took place.

Fourth problem -- your on-the-ground eye witnesses saw a very limited amount of stuff and are going to have a problem with identification.  They don't know who Blonsky is.  They just saw a monster.

Fifth problem -- Blonsky has a right to be present at his trial, and to present a defense.  How do you afford him that right when he can bust out of the courtroom?

You should watch the film again. Your asumptions are off a few miles.

1st: Ross gave him some Superserum. NOT the one that turned him into the Abdomination. That was the scientist that temporarily helped to heal Banner

2nd: Blonksy goes into Lab. Abdomination comes out. Abdomination has 90% of the DNA of Blonsky. "Sorry, military affair".

3rd: All the Helmets had cameras. What are the chances they hooked a VCR up to those feeds?

4rd: Again, a simple DNA check.

5th: Isn't there an exception for cases where the presence could unduly influence witnesses? Like in case of Child Abuse? Also, by definition every case against Hulk had do be done in absentia (Bruce Banner != Hulk). So they propably changed the laws for that beforehand.

 

Most of your witnesses are going to give testimony something like this:

 

Random NYC cop:  "I was walking my beat, when I heard some explosions.  I ran a few blocks to see what was happening.  There was a big fire and a lot of smoke.  Then this huge thing went racing past me, throwing cars as it went.  I ducked under a flying taxicab, and I drew my gun, but by then the thing was gone."

 

Random guy in car:  "I was stuck in traffic, and then I heard all these explosions.  I tried to see what was going on, but everything was pretty dark.  There was a lot of smoke.  Then this big green giant appeared out of nowhere, kicked the front of my car, and I skidded across 4 lanes of traffic into a building.  My arm was broken in 3 places."

Lawyer:  "Can you identify the big green monster that kicked you?"

Guy in car:  "Not really, no.  It all happened so fast..."

 

Random military guy:  "I was assigned to the Hulk Task Force.  I was in a Humvee, and we had a rocket launcher.  We were deployed to the Bronx.  I saw explosions maybe a quarter mile ahead of us.  Through the fire, I saw a huge figure that was smashing cars and flinging them through the air.  I fired my rocket launcher at it.  The rocket didn't do anything except attract its attention.  Then in like 5 seconds it was on top of us.  I didn't get a good look at it, but it was holding a car, and it hit out Humvee with the car.  Now I'm in a wheelchair."

 

 

--

 

Without Banner or Ross, you don't know who started the fight.  You don't know which monster was in which location, or when.  You just know two things tore up half the city.  One is apparently "good" and the other is apparently "bad", but watching that video I didn't see anybody who would help you distinguish the two.  Now imagine other types of super fights, and how few people witness enough to put all the pieces together.

 

"They say that my client is Loki, the Norse god of mischief.  But my client is just poor old Tom Hiddleston, an amateur actor with no criminal record or super-powers.  Here we see from this video from Berlin, that Loki is a master of illusions and shape-changing.  My poor client just happened to be the one Loki chose to base his appearance on."  With nobody from Asgard showing up to say this is the actual real Loki (not that they would know either)...

The Random Military Guys was dead by that time. But as I said above, the Videorecording of his helmet camera survived.

As well as dashboard cams of the police cars.

And you have plenty of evidence of Blonsky/Abdomination tearing up the city while Bruce Banner/Hulk was in General Rosses custody, 100 feet above the city. Like the timestamps on said Videos. And the cameras on the Helicopter itself.

 

You can throw a lot of critique onto the film, but not that they could not prosecute Blonsky. The legal situation is as clear as it could ever be in a superhero film.

 

What exactly is that Loki cases you talk about? Give a fully situation description because it does not make a lot of sense yet.

Loki is notorious for (eventually) letting everyone know it was him. The guy got a Ego problem on top of his Daddy and Brother issues. Also "take Anti-illusion rune from asgard, put rune onto Loki in disguise, drag Loki back home".

 

Trials in absentia generally require that the defendant waive the right to his appearance.  That can happen when the trial begins, and the defendant flees.  But the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure wouldn't allow you to keep somebody in cold sleep and then proceed with a trial without ever waking him up.  That's why I said putting the case on an indefinite hold, similar to a competency evaluation, would probably be better.  Once you figure out how to turn him back into a non-powered form, trial could proceed as normal.

 

Think of it this way.  Let's say that you've got a normal, non-powered, regular old bank robber.  And the bank robber shoots a cop, and he flees in his getaway car, and he misses a turn and drives off a bridge.  You definitely want to prosecute this guy, but he's in a coma in the hospital.  You don't know when, or if, he'll ever wake up.  We'll say that you're even keeping the guy in a medically-induced coma until all the brain swelling goes down, because letting him wake up could kill him.  So you file the charges, and then the trial is suspended indefinitely while he is medically incapacitated.  The only difference here is that you're keeping the Abomination medically incapacitated because he'll probably go on a rampage if he wakes up.  Letting him wake up is a threat to other people, instead of being a threat to himself.

You asume that the law would not adapt to the Superheroic reality. That seems highly unrealistic.

 

And even if, keeping him in Hot Sleep "until we can lock him into a less dangerous form" does effectively means to imprision him.

And the moment he wakes up and leaves, he is considered on "Fugitive from a Arrest Warrant". Plus all the damage cause by him breaking out of that Prision. So they can put him right back in.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Other than "good guy has to escape from prison" stories, I think comics were better off back when they just didn't bother wondering what happened to arrested bad guys.  There are too many ethical questions and undesirable ponderables coming from the entire concept.

[tiger]

I like the submerged prison idea from Cap Civil war. If it's underwater escaping is rather hazardous. A friend suggested a prison on the moon or an asteroid, both have problems connected to them. I use Stronghold, being in a desert and a such it a good protection against escape.

[massey]

You should watch the film again. Your asumptions are off a few miles.

1st: Ross gave him some Superserum. NOT the one that turned him into the Abdomination. That was the scientist that temporarily helped to heal Banner

2nd: Blonksy goes into Lab. Abdomination comes out. Abdomination has 90% of the DNA of Blonsky. "Sorry, military affair".

3rd: All the Helmets had cameras. What are the chances they hooked a VCR up to those feeds?

4rd: Again, a simple DNA check.

5th: Isn't there an exception for cases where the presence could unduly influence witnesses? Like in case of Child Abuse? Also, by definition every case against Hulk had do be done in absentia (Bruce Banner != Hulk). So they propably changed the laws for that beforehand.

 

 

 

I'll admit I don't remember it too well, but I wouldn't say anyone ever needs to watch that movie again.

 

But let's look at your points.

 

1)  Okay, so Ross didn't give him the final treatment.  He's still the guy who dosed Blonsky with the first serum.  Don't you think taking a guy as unbalanced as Blonsky and giving him Captain America level abilities would be a bad career move?  The question would be if Ross is going to be cooperative with a conventional prosecution.  If this is some secret military court, then it doesn't really matter.

2)  Who sees that except us?  Yeah, it's clear what happens in the movie.  But the people in the movie universe don't get to watch the movie.  What we're really talking about is what can they prove happened, given the information that will be available to a prosecutor there?  I'm not sure what your "military affair" quote means.

3)  Even if they're recording it, the video doesn't show what we see in the movie.  The problem is, we're watching the film, it's showing us what is going on, and then it cuts to Banner and friends as they're watching... something... on a monitor.  But they aren't seeing what we're seeing.  We're seeing things on a camera that doesn't exist in the world of the movie.  The military guys are wearing helmet cams, but the Abomination doesn't get closer than about 30 feet before he picks up a taxi, and the army guys fall down backwards into the jeep, staring up.  Then they see a taxi smash them.  Most of the time, the Abomination is far in the distance.  They aren't getting good video of that.  Same with any cop dash cams.

4)  Having 90% the same DNA is just going to prove that he's not Blonsky.  That's how DNA evidence works in a real trial.  He's going to have lots of points where the DNA just doesn't match.  Real-world DNA analysis would prove "this is absolutely not the same guy".  But that opens up a whole different kettle of fish.

5)  Nope.  I've tried several of those cases.  Kids sit there and testify with the person right there in the room.  You have a right to confront your accuser.  As far as the Hulk goes, is there anything to show that Hulk has ever had any legal proceedings against him?

 

 

The Random Military Guys was dead by that time. But as I said above, the Videorecording of his helmet camera survived.

As well as dashboard cams of the police cars.

And you have plenty of evidence of Blonsky/Abdomination tearing up the city while Bruce Banner/Hulk was in General Rosses custody, 100 feet above the city. Like the timestamps on said Videos. And the cameras on the Helicopter itself.

 

You can throw a lot of critique onto the film, but not that they could not prosecute Blonsky. The legal situation is as clear as it could ever be in a superhero film.

 

 

Here's the problem with prosecuting him.  While you don't necessarily have to prove that he's Emil Blonsky, special forces jerkwad, you need to have a narrative to tell the jury.  Otherwise it's just "well these two green guys fought, and this one lost".  For that, you need General Ross or Bruce Banner to testify.  You just have to have one of them.  The videos are just going to show a blurry green guy who moves in and out of frame really quickly.  Any video from the helicopter is from a long distance away.  You're looking at Blair Witch Project level cinematography.  I don't think there's going to be good enough video to distinguish the Abomination from the Hulk.

 

It's like Superman dropping off Lex Luthor at the prison at the end of the first movie.  If Supes never showed back up to testify, people would be like "who is this bald man and what is he supposed to have done?"

 

 

What exactly is that Loki cases you talk about? Give a fully situation description because it does not make a lot of sense yet.

Loki is notorious for (eventually) letting everyone know it was him. The guy got a Ego problem on top of his Daddy and Brother issues. Also "take Anti-illusion rune from asgard, put rune onto Loki in disguise, drag Loki back home".

 

 

The point about Loki is that here's a superhuman, who has powers that make conventional prosecution tough.  Yeah, I guess you can let Asgard come get him, but that's a cop out.  This is a thread about an Earth-based superprison after all. 

 

Loki can disappear.  Loki can take on other people's forms.  Loki is a master of illusion.  Prosecuting him is virtually impossible because as soon as he's awake, he's outta there.  Even if you somehow catch Loki, and he's been stripped of his powers or something, how can you prove that the guy you have is really him?  He's a shapechanger, remember.  Without Thor coming down and waving a magic wand and saying "this is really my brother Loki", how do you know what Loki really looks like?  Yeah, we'll say you've got video of the fight in Berlin from the first Avengers movie.  But how do you know he wasn't shapechanged when he did that?  What is Loki's "scaly blue Mystique" form?  Does he really look like Tom Hiddleston?  Or was he in disguise then?

 

 

 

You asume that the law would not adapt to the Superheroic reality. That seems highly unrealistic.

 

And even if, keeping him in Hot Sleep "until we can lock him into a less dangerous form" does effectively means to imprision him.

And the moment he wakes up and leaves, he is considered on "Fugitive from a Arrest Warrant". Plus all the damage cause by him breaking out of that Prision. So they can put him right back in.

 

No, I'm telling you how they'd probably adapt.  I'm giving you the simplest solution, with the fewest possible changes from our current system.  Until they can figure out a way to neutralize the guy's powers, they aren't going to worry about a trial.  They're gonna keep him asleep.  You guys are suggesting violating the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments to the Constitution.  I'm saying the easiest way to avoid that is to determine him to be incapacitated due to medical necessity and just not proceed.  Sure, if he wakes up you can go get him.  But that's the best way to do it, rather than doing a trial of a guy who is unable to respond.

[wcw43921]

I like the submerged prison idea from Cap Civil war. If it's underwater escaping is rather hazardous. A friend suggested a prison on the moon or an asteroid, both have problems connected to them. I use Stronghold, being in a desert and a such it a good protection against escape.

 

My sentiments exactly.  I always thought that the bottom of Lake Michigan would be a good place for a super-penitentiary--or one of the other Great Lakes, if the US and Canada wanted to share expenses.

[Christopher]

I like the submerged prison idea from Cap Civil war. If it's underwater escaping is rather hazardous. A friend suggested a prison on the moon or an asteroid, both have problems connected to them. I use Stronghold, being in a desert and a such it a good protection against escape.

I think the Original Idea.was earliest in Avengers, Earths Mightiest Heroes.

Where they put the raft in the new York Harbor (there was also the Cube, the Big House and a 3rd Prision). That failed. So later they added another layer to it:

42 was a Prision Station in the Negative Zone. Only way in or out was through a technology baed portal.

 

 

Here's the problem with prosecuting him.  While you don't necessarily have to prove that he's Emil Blonsky, special forces jerkwad, you need to have a narrative to tell the jury.  Otherwise it's just "well these two green guys fought, and this one lost".  For that, you need General Ross or Bruce Banner to testify.  You just have to have one of them.  The videos are just going to show a blurry green guy who moves in and out of frame really quickly.  Any video from the helicopter is from a long distance away.  You're looking at Blair Witch Project level cinematography.  I don't think there's going to be good enough video to distinguish the Abomination from the Hulk.

 

It's like Superman dropping off Lex Luthor at the prison at the end of the first movie.  If Supes never showed back up to testify, people would be like "who is this bald man and what is he supposed to have done?"

 

 

The point about Loki is that here's a superhuman, who has powers that make conventional prosecution tough.  Yeah, I guess you can let Asgard come get him, but that's a cop out.  This is a thread about an Earth-based superprison after all. 

 

Loki can disappear.  Loki can take on other people's forms.  Loki is a master of illusion.  Prosecuting him is virtually impossible because as soon as he's awake, he's outta there.  Even if you somehow catch Loki, and he's been stripped of his powers or something, how can you prove that the guy you have is really him?  He's a shapechanger, remember.  Without Thor coming down and waving a magic wand and saying "this is really my brother Loki", how do you know what Loki really looks like?  Yeah, we'll say you've got video of the fight in Berlin from the first Avengers movie.  But how do you know he wasn't shapechanged when he did that?  What is Loki's "scaly blue Mystique" form?  Does he really look like Tom Hiddleston?  Or was he in disguise then?

 

 

 

No, I'm telling you how they'd probably adapt.  I'm giving you the simplest solution, with the fewest possible changes from our current system.  Until they can figure out a way to neutralize the guy's powers, they aren't going to worry about a trial.  They're gonna keep him asleep.  You guys are suggesting violating the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments to the Constitution.  I'm saying the easiest way to avoid that is to determine him to be incapacitated due to medical necessity and just not proceed.  Sure, if he wakes up you can go get him.  But that's the best way to do it, rather than doing a trial of a guy who is unable to respond.

Incredible Hulk:

Hulk and Abdomination move and look quite differently. The CGI teams and Choreographers saw to that specifically.

 

Also there were only two giant monsters in the city. One of them was in custody the whole time. "It was the Hulk that tore up the city" does not work, because there is ample proof it was not him (down to the Video of Banner being arrested).

Do you really think "it was that 3rd, nowhere to be seen invisible green monster that tore up the city." is going to work? I mean realistically agaisnt a normal, mostly sane Judge and Jury?

There were two beings that could have been responsible for the destruction of the city. One could not have been it. The other appeared on dozen of Videos, and left hundreds of giant handprints in everything he squashed. If they were two normal beings with that strenght and durability, sure it would be hard to identify them. But there are only so many giant green monsters on that earth, most of wich were not even in the area.

 

There was this one case where two guys in military grade full body armor robbed a bank.

Funny enough there were not a lot of people wearing Military Grade Full Body Armor in that city or near the Bank at the same time. Even with loosing sight for a minute, you can still say "extremely likely to be the same guy".

 

 

Loki:

You seem to be heavily missinterpreting his powers.

Loki can not just "disapear". He has no Desolidification.

And as far as I know his Illusions do not react to physical force either. So latest when putting on the Handcuffs you know he is a real being.

Without some Scepter his powers seem highly limited.

We have never seen him walk through solid mater. Indeed seeing that is a clear sign of an Illusion. Nor open locked doors with "Magic Telekinesis".

It is quite possible that during his appereance on Thor he was only "clouding peoples mind" and was still caught on all cameras (and thier Recording), being noticed on any later review of that Material.

 

And again, how many people that look exactly like this can there be in the same city at the same time?

I mean what are the rules if you got 2 twins and can not decide wich of the two was unable to do it?

What if they are not twins and thus can not use the "do not need to help prosecute family" rule?