Rick Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 YES!!!! Uhhh...I mean yes . I like it. Some of the Formatting seems off since many of the NPC's are in the body of the text instead of on the sidebars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I don't have a copy yet. Keith "Nope, nothing controversial in that statement..." Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Me neither. The cover is pretty. I fully intend on getting it. Can't wait to see the illos... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Anyone planning on posting a review on rpg.net? Although most people tend to post views here anyways, its nice to see it there and get a wider audience. Our local gaming store has it in stock. Actually, more amazing then having it in stock, they had it on the shelf (as opposed to the Viper sourcebook, "Oh yeah, we have it in the back, we just didn't put it on the shelves.") Since I am waiting on another book I didn't pick it up quite yet. I flipped through it and it looked pretty nice, though I didn't read it in much detail. Maybe a purchase for the new year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Ok, I've got MMM and read it, and here's what I thought of it... On first glance, this book, seems a little thin. I think that's not valid based on the wealth of information inside. This book, to put it in D&D speak, is the Monster Manuel II, or the Bestiary II if you prefer Hero Speak. It's got a relatively standard grouping of monsters (Goblin, hobgoblin, orc, ogre, troll, giant etc) along with D&Desque monsters (what's a Fantasy Suppliment without a Dark Dwarf, Dark Elf, and Nasty Psionic Underground race--although this one isn't Cthuloid based in appearance). It's got some different critters, which, to me, go more to show the flexibility of the system. You've got the Banewolf, and the Calopus, which are wolves with powers/abilities, which example the different things you can do with the system. There are some ... unique critters (three different types of magic eagle/bird things, a watery ooze with flame powers! come quickly to mind). So not everything is something that a D&D player has seen before. It's got some more templates in the back. Need an Ork Barbarian, grab the Ork sheet, bolt on the Barbarian template, voila, instant monster. What I found the most interesting was the "example characters". At the end of a lot of the monsters, they give an sample of what you can do with the character. A Badass Hill Giant Merc, or a Great Temple Guardian Naga for two random examples. Again, it highlights the flexibility of the system, plus it gives you plot seeds. The very back of the book contains "Human Adversaries". need a bandit on the fly, poof there he is. The artwork is pretty neat. I can't think of anything that makes me go "ick". I'm not an artist, don't play one on tv, and don't feel very qualified to say much about it, other than "I liked it". The cover is sweet, and unlike fantasy products from other companies (ooh, look, pretty picture), you can actually figure out what/who is on the cover (pg 48). I think you might, if focused on a more humanoid based campaign, be able to use this as your primary monster book. You're lacking animals, and lots of dragons, and demons and things from the Bestiary, but there are magical animals, some dragons and demons, and most of the "fantasy humanoids" you're going to need, with enough other stuff to keep the PCs on their toes. I like it. It's a good book to me, and for me. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadorn Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by Rick Shut up. Shut up!!! SHUT UP!!!! Go on ignore, noone tells me to shut up and gets away with it - not even Laura Ingraham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadorn Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man Its funny, but isn't that the fifth or sixth person on the boards who have had that exact same "perception" of your tone and tenor? Don't try to "norm" me, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadorn Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by Old Man So is MMM any good or what? Don't ask me, I'm waiting for three hero game books in the mail, and waiting for MMM to be posted on the hero online store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadorn Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Excellent review on page four D-Man, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by Galadorn Don't try to "norm" me, thank you. Struck a nerve, huh? The fact is that you do manage to elicit the same response from a wide variety of posters. That should indicate that it isn't just them and that their perception isn't uncommon. People react to you that way for a reason. And as someone who lurks on a lot of threads and wants to read an on topic review of the product it isn't in anyway hypocritical for me to ask that you "take it outside," or rather, to the proper forum. Hence your "page four" comment is both innapropriate and indicative of the fact that you were stung and want to sting back. In general, criticism that isn't true doesn't hurt. I'm gald you've found God and are a devout Catholic, but not everyone admires your particular brand of faith, and a lot of people enjoy Black Adder because its a very funny show. You'll just have to deal with the fact that not everyone cares how you feel about their opinions. We have a forum for the discussion you were having - and I'm not the only person to ask that you take it to the correct venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadorn Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man Struck a nerve, huh? Nope, you struck my ignore button. I've had enough of dysfunction 101 for today, and for the rest of my life for that matter. Secondly, youve never heard the expression, "give credit where credit is due?" It has a flipside to it "don't give credit where credit is not due." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I too agree that the MMM seemed a little thin at first. But the options given are quite sizable. THere's a lot of quality and quanity in the book. THe art too me was some what....ehhh.... Sniffles....ignored.... Thank (his) god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by Rick THe art too me was some what....ehhh.... Did all of the creatures get a picture? One of the things which has bothered me about some Hero products of late is that write-ups have been given but no picture were available to help you get a visual sense about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 There were pics for most, but not all of the monsters. THe Invible assassin did however get a picture.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by Rick There were pics for most, but not all of the monsters. THe Invible assassin did however get a picture.... I was afraid of that. I do not understand this current DOJ trend. Give us some Star Hero vehicle write-ups, but no pics. Give us some Terran Empire and Spacer's Toolkit write-ups, but no pics. Now give us some monster write-ups and no pics. It's one thing to not give us a pic of a bald eagle. It's another thing to not give us a pic of Shreven Blood Hawk. I know that art is expensive but visual understanding is very important in games, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by Rick There were pics for most, but not all of the monsters. THe Invible assassin did however get a picture.... Mantasi: The mantis people. Leshi: Forest spirit, but looks mostly human. Myceton: The fungus people. Pakasa: The Cat People. Shedu: winged bull with man's head. Uthosa: Fish People. Edit: The Goblin and Hobgoblin seem to share a picture (it's on the hobgoblin side) There is a list of the monsters sans pictures. I understand Mon's concern. Fortunately, I've got enough D&D books to grab something that'll work... D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catseye Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Okay guys, with the best of intentions this thread has devolved back off topic. Lets take it home and keep it there. Remember, its boring to have a conversation with yourself. If noone else is going off topic then a single person can't pull it there, will get frustrated, and generally leave. SO the topic is MMM. My biggest complaint with the book (which is minor) I've decided is the artwork. Some of it I'm just not wild about but thats personal taste. More importantly though, although there is an illustration for every entry, ----------------------- EDIT: I note people have also found a handful of entries without pictures at all, that I missed. ---------------------- some entries describe a group of monsters that look very different from each other (ie Elementals.) In these case it seems uniformly only one of the group is illustrated. It would have been nice to have an illustration for everything. I often use book illustrations to make cardboard miniatures for my con games so not having a picture of a monster I'm going to use is annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I bought it yesterday and gave it a skimming. Looks good on the surface, and I liked the personalizing bits many of the entries have of specific instances of that type of creature. Nothing I couldnt do on my own, but saves me some time and is useful as a reference. The art for the most part was above the usual HERO Standards IMO, with only a few crappy pics. I dont care for the cover -- I dont like computer generated mixed w/ hand rendered art in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Seeman Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith I was afraid of that. I do not understand this current DOJ trend. Give us some Star Hero vehicle write-ups, but no pics. Give us some Terran Empire and Spacer's Toolkit write-ups, but no pics. Now give us some monster write-ups and no pics. It's one thing to not give us a pic of a bald eagle. It's another thing to not give us a pic of Shreven Blood Hawk. I know that art is expensive but visual understanding is very important in games, IMO. The main reasons why not everything is illustrated is the costs. We would have to pay for more artwork, and more artwork means a bigger book which translates to a higher production cost. That in turn makes the book more expensive for you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storn Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I don't have MMM yet. But I just looked over my artwork that I did for that book... and I worked my tail off for the interiors I was assigned. One, the hobgoblin, is one of my favorites that I've done all year. But I have very little control over what pic gets put with what text. Or how it gets assigned. I hear ya on having groups being done by the same artist/art team. I think that makes sense... but I guess its not always possible. Some artists are better at certain types of art than others. Art Directors tend to parcel out art to the various artist's strengths. Often, I don't even see the text, because writing is going on at the same time that artwork is being created. That is how Hero can get out a book every month (sometimes 2). All I can tell ya is that I'm a tryin'. And I think all of the Hero stable of artists continues to try and improve each and every book. Each and every illustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catseye Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Hey, As someone who couldn't draw a stickman til college I'm definitely in the "those who can't do, critique" category In general I think the art is fine. As I said there are a few I don't like but thats just personal taste. I wouldn't accuse any of it of being "bad art". I do wish there was a bit more though, and I for one would probably pay $5.00 more if it meant an illustration for every monster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storn Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 As someone who couldn't draw a stickman til college I'm definitely in the "those who can't do, critique" category If you don't critique, how I am expected to know where to get better? I don't buy the "those who can't, shouldn't" I know plenty of people who don't have the training to be artist, yet still have very valid observations. And that is pretty much all that art is... training. I drew exactly the same as you did, with the same skill when we were both 5. We all did. Even the greats. I just stuck with it. You went on to other pursuits. I get enough reward (some think its chemical, studies show endorphins are released in artists brains after 2 hours of artwork.) to sit in that chair day after day working on my craft. Now... hold off on critiquing any other of the artists work in MMM... 1) Not sure if they want to hear it. 2) I don't have the book, so I can only comment on my own stuff. but me? Fire away. I'm a big boy. I can take it. I'll take it, consider it and learn from it. And as far as taste goes... it helps Hero to hear what works for folks and what doesnt. Granted, your taste may go in directions that the art teams of Hero can't/won't go...or the majority won't agree with. AFter all, we wnat to remain open/attract the largest market we can. So, that's what these forums are here for. Let's hear your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Well said, Storn. I would love to hear any comments on my work, positive or negative. Of course, since I didn't get an assignment on MMM, that's easy to say. I welcome comments on anything else I've done. Without feedback, I'm tossing art into a vacuum. I'll never know what people like or dislike. I posted an invitation to make comments and requests on the maps I have done in the past year, with the hope of getting some idea of what people want, but only got a few responses. I suspect most of the artists for Hero would love to hear criticism, provided it is presented in a civil manner. Please no "It sucked" comments, that doesn't serve any purpose. But telling me why you didn't care for it certainly would. Keith "broad-shouldered art guy" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSkip Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 How's the mapping coming Keith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Originally posted by Storn If you don't critique, how I am expected to know where to get better? I critique everything! But I'm sure you've noticed by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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