The Turakian Age is Seriously Underrated

[Steve Long]

I can't dispute any of your analysis, DShomshak -- you make some good points. Because TA had to be our "typical High Fantasy that appeals to the broadest swath of gamers," I had to make a lot of decisions, and present things in a lot of ways, that I might not have without those pressures. Our other FH setting books, such as Tuala Morn and The Valdorian Age, diverge significantly from that standard "form" because in those books I (and Allen) had the opportunity to do different things, things not necessarily found in a lot of setting books, because we had our "standard setting" already in place.

 

Unfortunately setting books just don't sell well enough for us to keep doing them, or to expand on the ones we have -- which is a shame, because I'd love to have the chance to do that. I'd love to do my own Swords & Sorcery setting (different from Valdorian Age, which was primarily Allen's creation), try some Low Fantasy ideas, and maybe some really weird High Fantasy stuff. (I do have a couple of Urban Fantasy settings I may publish at some point. Those are pretty common these days, but since that's what I happen to be running right now, it's what I've got material for.) Perhaps sometime in the future.

[sentry0]

28 minutes ago, Steve Long said:

I do have a couple of Urban Fantasy settings I may publish at some point. Those are pretty common these days, but since that's what I happen to be running right now, it's what I've got material for.) Perhaps sometime in the future.

 

I would love to see your take on an Urban Fantasy setting, even if they are a dime a dozen 😁

[Duke Bushido]

On November 27, 2019 at 2:16 PM, Steve Long said:

Our other FH setting books, such as Tuala Morn 

 

I usually pronounce that as "The best fantasy setting ever presented by Hero Games." 

 

Mostly because it's not the lowest-common-denominator-yet-again setting. 

[Lord Liaden]

I also have to share my fondness for Steve's The Atlantean Age for Hero. It has a Classical/Mythic Greco-Roman style and flavor, rather than Medieval. It lacks most of the D&D-esque conventions, and all of its races. It's much less dense and more accessible than TA. And its range of power level is about as high as fantasy gets without turning into a superhero setting. (That might be a downside for some players, but as my favorite game genre is supers, for me it's a selling point.)

[DShomshak]

22 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

On that front, let's consider Kal-Turak. You're right that we get little about his specific motivations, but until he begins his campaign of conquest he's almost as removed from the world as the gods themselves. Even his machinations are mostly behind the scenes. And as I described earlier on this thread, it's quite easy to run TA without Kal-Turak.

 

Which could be one option given in a "Deciding What Kal-Turak Wants" page or sidebar: Kal-Turak is only a legend, a sort of reverse Prester John. Somewhere in the world far away is the Kingdom of Evil full of hideous wonders, ruled by a sorcerer-tyrant servant of Mordak. Ambitious villains seek it in hopes of making alliances to their benefit; righteous folk tell fables about it to warn about the perils of wickedness; gullible folk see Kal-Turak's hand in everything that goes wrong; cunning folk use the legend to cover their own misdeeds. But it doesn't really exist.

 

... Unless sufficient belief accumulates to precipitate Kal-Turak out of the Netherworld and make the myth real. Oops.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

It's been mentioned before, but the presentation of religion is one of the best things I've seen so far in TA. For instance, the gods of the High Faith are bog-standard High Fantasy, but connecting them into three distinct but related pantheons is quite good -- especially the myth that Mordak was necessary to create the world, which and had to be placated into doing his part, which suggests he could be more than a theological cipher of motiveless Evil.

 

Adding saints (the Esailes, Essailes and Demonhanded) to the theology also pushes it beyond the Generic Fantasy Warehouse. The priestly hierarchy is well presented. So's the theological schism of the Hargeshites: Most Fantasy religions don't have sects and schisms. But the best thing, IMO, is making the High Faith a multi-cultural, even multi-species religion. Yes, elves aqnd orcs worship the same gods! (Just different names.) It's an excellent rebuke to the D&D-ism of every race having its own pantheon... though the pantheons all look very much the same. OTOH, there are other faiths too, from the dire deities of Thun to the quirky gods of Vornakkia. TA takes religion seriously as a force in mortal society and motivation.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

It's been mentioned before, but the presentation of religion is one of the best things I've seen so far in TA. For instance, the gods of the High Faith are bog-standard High Fantasy, but connecting them into three distinct but related pantheons is quite good -- especially the myth that Mordak was necessary to create the world, which and had to be placated into doing his part, which suggests he could be more than a theological cipher of motiveless Evil.

 

Adding saints (the Esailes, Essailes and Demonhanded) to the theology also pushes it beyond the Generic Fantasy Warehouse. The priestly hierarchy is well presented. So's the theological schism of the Hargeshites: Most Fantasy religions don't have sects and schisms. But the best thing, IMO, is making the High Faith a multi-cultural, even multi-species religion. Yes, elves aqnd orcs worship the same gods! (Just different names.) It's an excellent rebuke to the D&D-ism of every race having its own pantheon... though the pantheons all look very much the same. OTOH, there are other faiths too, from the dire deities of Thun to the quirky gods of Vornakkia. TA takes religion seriously as a force in mortal society and motivation.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

I also appreciate how Steve chose to work in the issue of faith, which would seem to be irrelevant in a world where the gods manifest their presence and power directly every day, so there can be no question of their existence. In TA the gods derive their sustenance and strength from worship, but faith -- the belief in that which cannot be proven -- adds savor to what would otherwise be a nourishing but "tasteless" meal. Hence the gods don't answer all their worshipers' questions, and permit or even encourage different interpretations of their nature, without weighing in on which is valid. Faced with related but differing theologies, all of which are apparently validated by the favor of the gods, a worshiper has no alternative but to choose on faith which one they hold to be true.

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

I also appreciate how Steve chose to work in the issue of faith, which would seem to be irrelevant in a world where the gods manifest their presence and power directly every day, so there can be no question of their existence. In TA the gods derive their sustenance and strength from worship, but faith -- the belief in that which cannot be proven -- adds savor to what would otherwise be a nourishing but "tasteless" meal. Hence the gods don't answer all their worshipers' questions, and permit or even encourage different interpretations of their nature, without weighing in on which is valid. Faced with related but differing theologies, all of which are apparently validated by the favor of the gods, a worshiper has no alternative but to choose on faith which one they hold to be true.

 

:: thinking about rules debates on the Hero boards... ::

 

[Nemblamenchisus]

On 11/28/2019 at 5:16 AM, Steve Long said:

Unfortunately setting books just don't sell well enough for us to keep doing them, or to expand on the ones we have -- which is a shame, because I'd love to have the chance to do that. I'd love to do my own Swords & Sorcery setting (different from Valdorian Age, which was primarily Allen's creation), try some Low Fantasy ideas, and maybe some really weird High Fantasy stuff.  Perhaps sometime in the future.

 

I for one would love to see more of your fantasy setting material. All of those ideas sound good - especially your take on sword and sorcery, and low fantasy.

 

It doesn't have to be a doorstopper like Turakian Age. Perhaps an ongoing series of short PDFs which could eventually be collected into a book? 

[Nolgroth]

Got up to the Lord of the Graven Spear and the end of the First Epoch. I really like the inverted King Arthur trope here, where the Spearlord conquers much of the known world with the aid of a magic spear. SO much more detail could have gone into this. Hell, you could really make an entire chapter about this period of time and the time after where kingdoms are rising and falling all over the place, for that matter. In fact, the period of time just after the death of the Spearlord seems way more interesting to me than the default campaign assumption of eventually fighting Kal-Turak. Luckily (and also somewhat frustratingly) a lot of the details surrounding the Spearlord are vague and GM dependent. This character has the potential to be one of the most interesting villains around. Hate to say it, but much more interesting than the titular villain, Kal-Turak.

 

If I were to write the Spearlord's story, I would actually give him a name and make him a little less directly evil. Heck, in some parts of the world, he might have become a bit of a folk hero. He was, after all, a somewhat permissive leader that might well have brought stability to some nations/regions that had not experienced it before. But that's me projecting my own tastes into the setting. Let me finish the book as written before I get into all of that.

 

My reading is slowed down considerably by a head/chest cold. Every time I cracked open the book to start reading, I would suddenly jolt awake with a couple of minutes having passed by. Was hoping to get the history lesson done today.

[Doc Democracy]

On 11/27/2019 at 7:16 PM, Steve Long said:

Unfortunately setting books just don't sell well enough for us to keep doing them, or to expand on the ones we have -- which is a shame, because I'd love to have the chance to do that.

 

I guess that is what the Hall of Champions is all about.  Dilettante gamers writing for love rather than to make a living with the time and motivation to fill in the gaps and detail and where any monetary reward is a welcome bonus rather than something that needs to pay the rent...

 

Also a bonus as nothing there needs to considered "canon".

 

Doc

[Lord Liaden]

5 hours ago, Nolgroth said:

Got up to the Lord of the Graven Spear and the end of the First Epoch. I really like the inverted King Arthur trope here, where the Spearlord conquers much of the known world with the aid of a magic spear. SO much more detail could have gone into this. Hell, you could really make an entire chapter about this period of time and the time after where kingdoms are rising and falling all over the place, for that matter. In fact, the period of time just after the death of the Spearlord seems way more interesting to me than the default campaign assumption of eventually fighting Kal-Turak. Luckily (and also somewhat frustratingly) a lot of the details surrounding the Spearlord are vague and GM dependent. This character has the potential to be one of the most interesting villains around. Hate to say it, but much more interesting than the titular villain, Kal-Turak.

 

If I were to write the Spearlord's story, I would actually give him a name and make him a little less directly evil. Heck, in some parts of the world, he might have become a bit of a folk hero. He was, after all, a somewhat permissive leader that might well have brought stability to some nations/regions that had not experienced it before. But that's me projecting my own tastes into the setting. Let me finish the book as written before I get into all of that.

 

My reading is slowed down considerably by a head/chest cold. Every time I cracked open the book to start reading, I would suddenly jolt awake with a couple of minutes having passed by. Was hoping to get the history lesson done today.

 

I strongly agree regarding the Spearlord. There are a number of mysteries surrounding him that make for intriguing possibilities to explore. (I have my own ideas, of course.) But one of the biggest for me, which also applies to Kal-Turak, is why they're allowed to spread their evil so far? Kilbern leads the "good" Blue Gods, but is also king over all the gods of the High Faith, including the evil Scarlet Gods. It's implied at several points that even Mordak, the chief Scarlet God, fears Kilbern's wrath. The Blue Gods have acted directly against great evil in Ambrethel in the past, such as cursing the Dark Elves to dwell in darkness beneath the earth, and sinking the island of Khem. So why do they suffer the depredations of the Lord of the Graven Spear and his even more evil son? The situation must be more complex than the surface details.

 

(I will send you all the positive energy I can spare, Nolgroth, to try to speed your recovery.)

[Nolgroth]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I strongly agree regarding the Spearlord. There are a number of mysteries surrounding him that make for intriguing possibilities to explore. (I have my own ideas, of course.) But one of the biggest for me, which also applies to Kal-Turak, is why they're allowed to spread their evil so far? Kilbern leads the "good" Blue Gods, but is also king over all the gods of the High Faith, including the evil Scarlet Gods. It's implied at several points that even Mordak, the chief Scarlet God, fears Kilbern's wrath. The Blue Gods have acted directly against great evil in Ambrethel in the past, such as cursing the Dark Elves to dwell in darkness beneath the earth, and sinking the island of Khem. So why do they suffer the depredations of the Lord of the Graven Spear and his even more evil son? The situation must be more complex than the surface details.

 

(I will send you all the positive energy I can spare, Nolgroth, to try to speed your recovery.)

 

Thanks for the well wishes. I am normally don't sleep more than six hours a day. No reason other than the ol' body just doesn't seem to need it. With this stupid cold, I've been sleeping almost twice that and I still feel wiped out. Hate getting sick.

 

As to why the Blue Gods stand idle (or "weep") as the text says, I am going to attribute that to Mordak's part in the great creation plan. Something that, like a legal contract, has little clauses built in to allow for the rise of such evils. Plus, it might just be that the Blue gods sometimes need to remind people not to take them for granted. Let some evil dude rise up every couple of thousand of years and then send heroes in to save the day and remind folk of how important the Blue gods are to maintaining peace and prosperity or something like that. By Kal-Turak's time, maybe the power of the Blue gods is diminishing. Maybe they become the titans of ancient Greece and are cast down by younger, more vital gods. Who knows? I don't own a copy of Valdorian Age, which is the next chronological entry into the Hero Universe (as I recall). No idea if any of the gods carry over or if they are relics of an ancient, mysterious past. 

[Duke Bushido]

8 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Dilettante

 

 

OOhh-- Doc!  

 

Please be careful with that word.  While most english-speaking countries understand what it means, it's a pretty high insult in this one.

 

(No offense taken personally, mind you: some of us _do_ know what it actually means  )

 

[Lord Liaden]

That's a very reasonable analysis, Nolgroth, and very useful from a GMing perspective, as it can be stretched to cover whatever circumstance the GM needs for a particular story.

 

The Valdorian Age is a different and intriguing situation. Faith really is needed by the religious then, because the gods are no longer active in the world. Legends record that they once intervened in mortal affairs, but for millennia they have not answered the prayers of their worshipers, nor do they grant magic to their priests. Magic in general has become far weaker and rarer; sorcerers have to bargain with or coerce supernatural entities into providing services to them, which is difficult and perilous. The failing of magic is called, "The World's Death Rattle."

 

The Valdorians still worship a pantheon of gods (none of them under the same names as Turakian gods, although there are similarities), but attribute the gods' absence to disgust and punishment over the murder of their great folk hero, Valdor. What no one understands is that magic on Earth is in one of its periodic waning phases, and isn't strong enough to keep the gods "awake," so they've entered a sort of stasis. When magic rises again during the Atlantean Age, some of these gods "wake up," others are newly born, while some forgotten gods may have died from lack of worship.

 

However, awakened older gods may have "evolved" in ways suiting how their current worshipers believe them to be. As one example, the chief god of Atlantis is named Tikarion, but is very similar to his Turakian analogue Kilbern, and may be a new aspect of the older god. (I'm not surprised that Steve Long, a lawyer, made the supreme deity in two of his settings a god of law and justice.)   For another, the Atlantean war god is named Ares, but is more of a noble warrior than the Greek war god of the same name will be, and is also the judge of the dead and keeper of the Underworld.

[Doc Democracy]

39 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

OOhh-- Doc!  

 

Please be careful with that word.  While most english-speaking countries understand what it means, it's a pretty high insult in this one.

 

(No offense taken personally, mind you: some of us _do_ know what it actually means  )

 

Really?  I am completely blind to this. Educate me?

[Lord Liaden]

If someone wanted an epic threat more nuanced than Kal-Turak as the basis for a campaign in this setting, IMHO the Hargeshite Empire of Vashkor would be the leading candidate. From its description I categorize it as something of a cross between the Arab Caliphate and the Soviet Union. The largest empire in the world, with the biggest standing army, Vashkor is united by its devotion to the Hargeshite creed, under an absolute ruler who is considered semi-divine, called the Hierakte. Vashkor has had peaceful eras, but is dedicated to the spread of Hargeshism by any means, and the Hierakte at TA's default start date appears particularly ambitious and aggressive. Half the world of Ambrethel is within reach of Vashkor's armies should it move to war.

 

The Empire's populace is kept tightly controlled, and the Hierakte treats other Hargeshite nations as Vashkor's satellites, expecting them to follow his dictates without question. The last such realm to proclaim its independence, Khepras, suffered invasion from Vashkor's army, the annihilation of its capital city and slaughter of all its populace, including most of its ruling nobility. Khepras is now a land of lawless chaos.

 

Vashkor's past also includes a frightening precedent, when all the realm's priests and wizards were gathered to craft the magical equivalent of a nuclear first strike against their enemies. This left behind a barren, near-lifeless desert called the Hargeshite Devastation, rivaling the Great Arabian Desert in area. (I know this sounds familiar to fans of the world of Greyhawk.)

[DShomshak]

Agreed on the Spearlord. One thing I learned from working on various White Wolf games is the dramatic advantage of setting games in times of instability: Either things are about to explode, or they've done so and people are picking up the pieces. For instance, in their Fantasy game Exalted, the Scarlet Empress has dominated the world for centuries through her control of an Ultimate Weapon, the world's largest and richest country (with the largest and most powerful "conventional" military), and an extended family of magically-empowered aristocrats. Except she vanished five years ago. Her descendants have split into factions so the Scarlet Empire is heading for civil war, satrapies are asserting independence or making their own regional power plays, other supernatural forces are making their own power plays now that the threat of the Ultimate Weapon seems removed, and, oh yes, the legendary heroes of a past Age are being reborn as your PCs. Everything's up in the air. What will your PCs do about it?

 

(It's one reason why I like the Alien Wars setting more than Terran Empire. TE is basically a time of stability; in AW, human space is in a time of dual crisis, both external and internal.)

 

The Spearlord's drive to conquer the world, but rather permissive rule over areas that sit down, shut up and pay their taxes, reminds me a bit of Genghis Khan. A line I heard attributed to Genghis Khan might be apt for the Spearlord's motivation: " As there is but one sun in the sky, let there be but one king for all the peoples of the world." He also reminds me a bit of the Golden General from Bujold's Curse of Chalion, and his sudden defeat and death could have similarly dire and destabilizing long-term effects on the world.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

Agreed on the Spearlord. One thing I learned from working on various White Wolf games is the dramatic advantage of setting games in times of instability: Either things are about to explode, or they've done so and people are picking up the pieces. For instance, in their Fantasy game Exalted, the Scarlet Empress has dominated the world for centuries through her control of an Ultimate Weapon, the world's largest and richest country (with the largest and most powerful "conventional" military), and an extended family of magically-empowered aristocrats. Except she vanished five years ago. Her descendants have split into factions so the Scarlet Empire is heading for civil war, satrapies are asserting independence or making their own regional power plays, other supernatural forces are making their own power plays now that the threat of the Ultimate Weapon seems removed, and, oh yes, the legendary heroes of a past Age are being reborn as your PCs. Everything's up in the air. What will your PCs do about it?

 

(It's one reason why I like the Alien Wars setting more than Terran Empire. TE is basically a time of stability; in AW, human space is in a time of dual crisis, both external and internal.)

 

The Spearlord's drive to conquer the world, but rather permissive rule over areas that sit down, shut up and pay their taxes, reminds me a bit of Genghis Khan. A line I heard attributed to Genghis Khan might be apt for the Spearlord's motivation: " As there is but one sun in the sky, let there be but one king for all the peoples of the world." He also reminds me a bit of the Golden General from Bujold's Curse of Chalion, and his sudden defeat and death could have similarly dire and destabilizing long-term effects on the world.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Duke Bushido]

58 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Really?  I am completely blind to this. Educate me?

 

I don't think it's as bothersome to the younger folk, but a side result of the industrial era and in particular the tens and twenties, the wealthy began to become far, far more distant from the working class in terms of resources, and there were more of these "super rich" folks than ever before. 

 

The children of these people formed something we hadn't really had beofe on this side of the ocean:  a leisure class.  A generation or two of people who did whatever they wanted whenever they wanted, and did nothing but sit on the wealth someone else had earned.  They were well-educated and under-stressed and completely out of touch with the world at large, and for the most part lacked the judgment and grace to appreciate thei fortune. 

 

The dabbled in this and that, artistically, politically, and socially.  They blsaw themselves as intellectually superior dilettantes, and did little other than flaunt their leisure. 

 

The 30s brought the Depression, the Dustbowl, and the hardest times the US had ever seen.  People who had been working their asses off their whole lives just to maintain themselves were losing farms, land, and even their lives. Those who could ran to the cities and the factories and worked twice as hard, and often to death, for less than half the quality of life they had before, all the while watching the factory owners get richer and thier dilettante children get more leisurely and further out of touch, holding parties and throwing around money in every possible way, so long as it want actually meaningful or on anyone's behalf. 

 

 

Short summation:

 

For several generations, the word "dilettante" came specifically to mean "the people who are the most useless to society, all the while being the most resource-consuming.". Nothing more than an overeducated burden with nothing to contribute but their own weight borne by the shoulders of everyone else. "

 

That's faded a bit, even during my lifetime, and may dissappear completely with the death of my generation and the one right after it.  But it's rather telling that even into 80s and Early 90s, amongst the working class, that word was nothing less than the most profound and profane of insults. 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

53 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

The Spearlord's drive to conquer the world, but rather permissive rule over areas that sit down, shut up and pay their taxes, reminds me a bit of Genghis Khan. A line I heard attributed to Genghis Khan might be apt for the Spearlord's motivation: " As there is but one sun in the sky, let there be but one king for all the peoples of the world." He also reminds me a bit of the Golden General from Bujold's Curse of Chalion, and his sudden defeat and death could have similarly dire and destabilizing long-term effects on the world.

 

With one important distinction: the Spearlord demanded a steady stream of human sacrifices to the Scarlet Gods. That's not an acceptable practice in Ambrethel outside of a few malevolent cults. The Tornathian city of Vescara refused to submit any of its people for sacrifice, and in response the Spearlord burned it to the ground, with every inhabitant trapped inside.

[Scott Ruggels]

On 11/26/2019 at 8:12 AM, Duke Bushido said:

I have little issue with multiple races.  I have to wonder why it's always the _same_ multiple races. 

I am trying to be different about it. Working (really slowly) on two project eventually for Hall of Champions, as deep race books. 1.) is a rewrite of the Jaggiri ( a possible replacement for the Drakine, maybe?) and The Lupines. Writing for me is a lot slower than it was in the 90’s. But I am also a bit bored with the endless Tolkien rehashes. 5e has a wide plethora of non Tolkien races.  It gives it a much different vibe than the earlier editions. But I am keeping things , now somewhat generic in the writing to keep them not setting specific, and open ended. 

[DShomshak]

19 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I am trying to be different about it. Working (really slowly) on two project eventually for Hall of Champions, as deep race books. 1.) is a rewrite of the Jaggiri ( a possible replacement for the Drakine, maybe?) and The Lupines. Writing for me is a lot slower than it was in the 90’s. But I am also a bit bored with the endless Tolkien rehashes. 5e has a wide plethora of non Tolkien races.  It gives it a much different vibe than the earlier editions. But I am keeping things , now somewhat generic in the writing to keep them not setting specific, and open ended. 

 

For a somewhat tortured simile: It's like Tolkien created a "bank account" of story that other writers have drawn upon. Not so many have returned to the lode of myth and folklore he mined and seriously tried to add to the account instead.

 

Over the years (3e and 5e) I've tried creating several new PC races for D&D. I think I've succeeded once or twice, maybe three times if you're generous.

 

The challenge, I think, is to give a race a distinctive POV through which you can filter a wide variety of characters. Broad enough that players won't just be creating the same character over and over -- this is my criticism of most of the races provided by Volo's Guide to Monsters -- but specific enough that they aren't just humans a funny look and a few quirks and gimmicks. I'm finding it really hard.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

19 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I am trying to be different about it. Working (really slowly) on two project eventually for Hall of Champions, as deep race books. 1.) is a rewrite of the Jaggiri ( a possible replacement for the Drakine, maybe?) and The Lupines. Writing for me is a lot slower than it was in the 90’s. But I am also a bit bored with the endless Tolkien rehashes. 5e has a wide plethora of non Tolkien races.  It gives it a much different vibe than the earlier editions. But I am keeping things , now somewhat generic in the writing to keep them not setting specific, and open ended. 

 

For a somewhat tortured simile: It's like Tolkien created a "bank account" of story that other writers have drawn upon. Not so many have returned to the lode of myth and folklore he mined and seriously tried to add to the account instead.

 

Over the years (3e and 5e) I've tried creating several new PC races for D&D. I think I've succeeded once or twice, maybe three times if you're generous.

 

The challenge, I think, is to give a race a distinctive POV through which you can filter a wide variety of characters. Broad enough that players won't just be creating the same character over and over -- this is my criticism of most of the races provided by Volo's Guide to Monsters -- but specific enough that they aren't just humans a funny look and a few quirks and gimmicks. I'm finding it really hard.

 

Dean Shomshak