Extra Time Query

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 minute ago, Ternaugh said:

The RAW are merely suggestions, and are designed to be as detailed or as light as the GM and his party want it. I've primarily run FH since it came out in 1985, and my campaign uses rules drawn from 3rd through 6th Edition, as we see fit for the stories that we want to tell.

Again, I hope your houserules are working well for your group.  I'm well aware that HERO is a toolkit, made to be remade. 

But when a thread is dedicated from the first post to an analysis of an intricacy of the Rules As Written in a situation where there appears to be significant amounts of confusion and/or miscommunication, knowingly bringing houserules in is just muddying the waters. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I ask you again, why would any of those things need to be done during the Full Phase Action and not before or after? 

 

OK first off I wish you wouldn't take this stuff so seriously, its a discussion about a game with people theoretically who are friends, right?  Smile.  Relax.

 

Second, why not do them after?  Perhaps something comes up in the phase later than your DEX rank. Maybe you change your mind later in the phase.  Perhaps you just want to and its a game so nobody can order you to do them at a certain point.  You are free to do so, so you can.  Hence, the limitation would actually limit you if you were able to purchase it.  Yet you cannot.  You're very insistent on this point, but I honestly don't believe it is very significant to the discussion.  The question is why is this limitation not allowed, not "why don't you just do them earlier"

[Ternaugh]

33 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Again, I hope your houserules are working well for your group.  I'm well aware that HERO is a toolkit, made to be remade. 

But when a thread is dedicated from the first post to an analysis of an intricacy of the Rules As Written in a situation where there appears to be significant amounts of confusion and/or miscommunication, knowingly bringing houserules in is just muddying the waters. 

 

Try this:

 

5er 357 defines a Full Phase Action as one that requires the character's entire Phase, and notes that he can take no other Actions. 6e Vol2 18 has the same language, but further notes that 0-Phase actions can take place before the Full Phase Action. The language about not applying the limitation to Full Phase in the Extra Time description seems to be based upon this, as the character can't do any other actions while taking the Full Phase Action.

 

Both 5er 291 and 6e Vol1 375 define a Delayed Phase as going off at the character's DEX/2 in the Phase DEX order. 0-Phase and 1/2 Phase non-attack actions can be done before, at the character's DEX. The implication is that even non-attack powers with Delayed Phase will go off in the last 1/2 of the character's Phase, and will essentially end their action. Another action during this time wouldn't normally be allowed by the rules, and, once again the language about not applying the limitation to Delayed Phased in the Extra Time description seems to be based upon this.

[Doc Democracy]

5 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Again, I hope your houserules are working well for your group.  I'm well aware that HERO is a toolkit, made to be remade. 

But when a thread is dedicated from the first post to an analysis of an intricacy of the Rules As Written in a situation where there appears to be significant amounts of confusion and/or miscommunication, knowingly bringing houserules in is just muddying the waters. 

 

You do seem to miss the point of the toolkit aspect of HERO.  I think I tweak the rules differently for every campaign I have run over the past ten years (it was vanilla Champions for the twenty-five or so that preceded those).

 

I think the speed chart is the bit I struggle most with.  I both love and hate it.  It was magically innovative in its day but it can feel so restricting in some genres and compared to some modern systems.  I embrace the SPD chart and all its works but I want it to work for me and I do REALLY think about things like phases and what they mean in the game I want to run rather than as they are described in the toolkit.

 

Doc

[dsatow]

The problem I think people are having is that the term Phase has two meanings but are closely related.  Let's start with some RaW definitions.

 

6e2p16

Turn

The basic time frame of combat is called a
Turn. Each Turn equals 12 seconds of time. Each
Turn a character gets a number of Phases equal to
his Speed (see below). A Turn is divided into 12
Segments.

 

Segment

A Turn consists of 12 Segments, each 1 second
long. Characters who can perform an Action in a
Segment (i.e., who have a Phase in that Segment) do
so in order of their DEX values. The character with
the highest DEX score goes first, the second highest
goes next, and so on. Two or more characters with
the same DEX who act in the same Segment should
each roll 1d6; the one with the highest roll acts first.
Ties should roll again.

After every Segment 12, before the next Turn
begins, there’s a “Post-Segment 12” period that
takes no time. At this time most characters automatically
get to take a Recovery (see 6E2 129).

 

Phase

A Segment on which a character can act is
known as one of his Phases. Each character has a
number of Phases in each Turn equal to his SPD.
For instance, a Speed 5 character has five Phases;
the character can perform one or more Actions
in each Phase. The Speed Chart tells you which
Segments a character’s Phases are in.

 

Each time one of a character’s Phases comes
up, he may perform one or more Actions. Find
the character’s Speed on the left side of the Speed
Chart, and look at the row next to it. Every Segment
marked with a H in that column is a Segment in
which the character has a Phase. For instance, a
character with a SPD of 4 has Phases in Segments 3,
6, 9, and 12.

 

A character’s Phase begins on his DEX in each of
the indicated Segments. For example, if a character
has SPD 5, DEX 20, his first Phase in a Turn
begins in Segment 3 on DEX 20. Typically the GM
begins each Segment by counting down DEXs, from
highest to lowest, until there’s no one left who has a
Phase. HERO System gamers typically refer to this
as having a character’s DEX “come up” or “occur,”
or as a character “going on” his DEX (“My character
goes on DEX 21”).

 

The type of Actions a character performs
have no effect on when he acts. A character gets
to perform his entire Phase’s worth of Actions
when his Phase occurs, even if a character with a
lower DEX only wants to perform a Zero or Half
Phase Action.

 

So the questions in the arguments I am hearing are

1) I have a power which takes a full phase action.  Can I do a zero phase action when I use the full phase action? The answer is yes so long as it is started before you take the full phase action.  A full phase action effectively ends your phase and must be completed in full (you can not take half a phase, delay, and then take the other half as an example).  See 6e2p18, Full Phase Actions  and Zero Phase Actions.

2) When does your phase end?  A phase is both a measure of time and when you go.  A full phase is both half actions.  An Extra phase is a full phase in one segment to the completion of a full phase in next segment of the character.

3) Doesn't a phase end at the bottom of the segment?  No, certain actions complete at the bottom of the segment but the amount of time to start the action does not change.  This is fairly confusing to people because probably the most common use of a full phase action is to take a recovery in turn.  What you need to understand is that when you take a recovery, you are initiating a recovery.  The initiating of the recovery take a full phase.  The results just happen to end at the bottom of the phase.  HERO has many actions which do this.  A Haymaker is a 1/2 phase action but it completes in the next segment.  Recovery from being stunned is a full phase but the effects of the recovery occur at the start of the character's next phase.  The reason for this is that there can be things which interfere with the action and prevent the action from completing.

4) But my GM doesn't do it this way! Yup, that's because your GM has house ruled it for their game.  I can't say why they did it.  Maybe it's too limiting in their game.  Maybe it doesn't match the genre.  Maybe they learned it differently when they played the game.  You just have to live with it or talk the GM out of it.

     4a) How should I handle it when I GM? However you want to handle it, just be uniform.  For instance, if you don't like the idea a villain can be screwed over when recovering from being stunned, you can say that after the villain completes the full round action, they are unstunned.  But that same argument should apply to the heroes and NPCs too.

[Doc Democracy]

18 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I am SPD 4, I begin activating my teleport which takes a full phase to power up.  I begin doing that on segment 3 and expect it to be ready on segment 6.  On segment 4, my SPD 3 opponent fires a bullet at me.  I am low on STUN and do not want to go unconscious.  I want to turn on my desolidification but that is a zero phase action while I am activating a power.  Will the GM let me??

 

We got distracted because I use phases differently.

 

I am Dex 28, I begin activating my teleport which takes a full phase to power up.  I begin doing that on segment 3.  On that same segment, my Dex 20 opponent fires a bullet at me.  I am low on STUN and do not want to go unconscious.  I want to turn on my desolidification but that is a zero phase action while I am activating a power.  Will the GM let me??

 

[IndianaJoe3]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

I am Dex 28, I begin activating my teleport which takes a full phase to power up.  I begin doing that on segment 3.  On that same segment, my Dex 20 opponent fires a bullet at me.  I am low on STUN and do not want to go unconscious.  I want to turn on my desolidification but that is a zero phase action while I am activating a power.  Will the GM let me??

 

 

Your teleport power, by RAW, activates at DEX 28 in segment 3. The fact that it is a Full Phase action (as opposed to a Half Phase for a Half Move) is irrelevant. 

 

If your teleport was built with Extra Phase (as opposed to Full Phase), it would activate at DEX 28 in segment 6.

 

Either way, you've used your action and can't Abort until segment 4.

[Doc Democracy]

I guess I am being distracted by the description of "full phase action" it makes it sound like it takes time when it actually takes no time at all.  You declare and act on DEX 28 of segment 3, it takes no additional time and simply makes a zero or half phase action into a full-phase action in game mechanics terms.  Which provides the fullest explanation of why it attracts no additional limitation for the purposes of the OP. 🙂

[Toxxus]

15 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

 

The RAW are merely suggestions, and are designed to be as detailed or as light as the GM and his party want it. I've primarily run FH since it came out in 1985, and my campaign uses rules drawn from 3rd through 6th Edition, as we see fit for the stories that we want to tell.

 

As the Hero System Rulebook for 4th Edition notes on p. 208:

 

 

 

I feel this is where a lot of game discussions break down.

 

There's RAW and there's the specific rule set for your own game and then there's what makes the game fun.

[dsatow]

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I guess I am being distracted by the description of "full phase action" it makes it sound like it takes time when it actually takes no time at all.  You declare and act on DEX 28 of segment 3, it takes no additional time and simply makes a zero or half phase action into a full-phase action in game mechanics terms.  Which provides the fullest explanation of why it attracts no additional limitation for the purposes of the OP. 🙂

 

Yes, its a problem for a lot of players when starting to play Hero for a while.  They probably should use the term "your segment" rather than "your phase" and only use "your phase" when actually describing your actions but I doubt it will help in any case.  It would be a battle similar to trying to stop people using the word STUN/STUNNED vs CON STUN.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I guess I am being distracted by the description of "full phase action" it makes it sound like it takes time when it actually takes no time at all

 

Yeah its misleading as defined.  The rules don't mean full phase at all, even though they claim that it does:

 

Quote

Full Phase (-½) means the power requires a character’s Full Phase to activate and use. The character can perform Zero Phase Actions before he begins activating the power, but may not perform Half Phase Actions.

 

The problem is that the rules go on then to say:

 

Quote

However, the power still activates on his DEX in the Phase; he isn’t required to wait until the end of the Phase to turn it on.

 

All it does is negate the ability to take other half phase actions than the power with extra time.  Its not delayed in any way, it doesn't even take your whole phase.  It just limits your other actions that phase.  And I don't think anyone who sees "extra time" envisions that at all.

[Chris Goodwin]

Yeah, this does point out some terminology issues.  

 

Phases aren't time, they're actions, meaning they're a resource.  As we can see, trying to treat them like a unit of time makes things a bit wonky.  

 

Maybe as long as it's measured in Phases it shouldn't be considered Extra Time, which implies we need a separate Limitation: Extra Actions.  Extra Time would cover 1 Segment, (edit) possibly intermediate numbers of Segments, (/edit) 1 Turn, and anything above that.  Extra Actions would mean that exactly as it implies, it takes more than one of your Phases, which means you're actually devoting those Phases to it.  That should also imply, and should also take into account, that you can't do anything else on those Phases.

 

So then Extra Time with the additional "can't do anything else" Limitation means that you're effectively taking all of that as extra Phases.  And if a Power is normally a zero Phase action to activate, giving it one Segment of Extra Time still means it's a zero Phase action, just that it doesn't start working until the segment after.  Without Extra Time, but with Extra Actions, you could have it take a half-Phase or full-Phase action, but that still means it activates on your Phase at your DEX, unless you've bought Extra Time as well.  

[Hugh Neilson]

So, Chris, in your model we would have "actions that take no actions", since they also are not measured in time, correct? 

 

It seems reasonable to break the two down. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

This deserves some more thought, I think.  Its an aspect of Hero that hasn't really been closely broken down before

[dmjalund]

What would be the limitation for a power that doesn’t go off until just before your next phase?

[IndianaJoe3]

5 hours ago, dmjalund said:

What would be the limitation for a power that doesn’t go off until just before your next phase?

 

I assume you mean, "the segment before the character's next Phase." That seems close enough to Extra Segment to be worth the same value (-1/2).

 

If you want, "directly before my character's action in it's next Phase," that's a lot more complex (and probably should require an Advantage to get two Actions in one Phase, even if one of them is delayed from earlier).

[Chris Goodwin]

On 5/5/2019 at 3:50 AM, dmjalund said:

What would be the limitation for a power that doesn’t go off until just before your next phase?

 

On 5/5/2019 at 8:49 AM, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

I assume you mean, "the segment before the character's next Phase." That seems close enough to Extra Segment to be worth the same value (-1/2).

 

If you want, "directly before my character's action in it's next Phase," that's a lot more complex (and probably should require an Advantage to get two Actions in one Phase, even if one of them is delayed from earlier).

 

If, for instance, you could delay your Phase until the second segment before your next Phase, and it would go off in the segment in between, then yeah, it should be effectively Extra Segment.  

 

On 5/3/2019 at 12:04 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

So, Chris, in your model we would have "actions that take no actions", since they also are not measured in time, correct? 

 

It seems reasonable to break the two down. 

 

All right, I got sloppy with my own terminology.    Extra Phases then for the Limitation?   

 

We could have things like: 

• Power takes a 0-Phase Action to activate, then starts working on the following Segment (Extra Time: 1 Segment)
• Power takes a Half-Phase Action to activate, then starts working immediately (Extra Phases: Half-Phase)
• Power takes a Full-Phase Action to activate, then starts working immediately (Extra Phases: Full Phase)
• Power takes a Full-Phase Action to activate, then starts working on the following Segment (Extra Phases: Full Phase, plus Extra Time: 1 Segment)
• Power takes a Full-Phase Action to activate, then starts working on the segment before the character's next Phase (Extra Phases: Full Phase, plus Extra Time: See Text)

Extra Time might have standard values for "segment before the character's next Phase" depending on whether it's a superheroic game (expected to be 2-3 Segments) or heroic game (expected to be 3-6 Segments).  

 

I'm basically thinking onto my keyboard rather than presenting polished design, so please keep that in mind when criticizing.  

[Hugh Neilson]

Chris, I like the logic.  This also opens up a power that takes extra time to activate, and is then available for use without further Extra Time under normal rules, which currently works for "passive" abilities (e.g. Force Field) but not "active" powers (like Blast).  You start up the OmniBlaster, it powers itself up for a turn, and can then be fired using standard attack actions until powered down again.

 

It also allows the option to deal with the valuation of the limitation.  I flip a switch on the OmniBlaster and it starts powering up.  While it powers up, I act normally on all my phases.  A turn later, the OmniBlaster is powered up and I can use it at will.  There's certainly a limitation there - I had to wait a whole turn before I could use the OmniBlaster. 

 

But it's much more limiting if I turn on the OmniBlaster, then have to calibrate and fine-tune it, unable to take any other actions for the entire turn during which it powers up.  Adding 1/4 to the limitation does not seem enough for that added drawback.

 

Once we get to/beyond a minute, we've basically moved to "must turn it on out of combat", and making it 5 minutes, or an hour, doesn't seem like it's becoming more limited nearly as rapidly.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thing that is needed is a limitation that does what people mean to buy when they get Extra Time.  And that comes in two flavors:

1) I turn it on and it takes a while to power up, like the plasma gun in Demolition Man.

2) I concentrate to get a power to go off, and can do nothing else until it goes bang

 

At present Extra Time kinda can do this, but not really in varying circumstances, and that needs to be cleaned up, in my opinion.

[dsatow]

Personally, for those situations where the granularity of the extra time chart does not handle, I would advise the player to take the lesser valued increment and just extend the time.

 

Example: The Cosmic Waiter has a 4 speed.  He has the ability to boost his SPD but he wants it to take two extra segments after his action.  This less than an extra phase but more than extra segment.  Cosmic Waiter would buy this as an extra segment time limitation.