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Light Effects


Tywyll

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from 6e v1 pg 211:

Nightvision
Cost: 5 Character Points (+4 Enhanced Perception, with a -½ Limitation, Only To Counteract Darkness Modifiers; Passive).
The character can see in total darkness (not including the Power Darkness, but including some forms of Change Environment that obscure vision) as though it were normal daylight.

 

...which means 8 Active Points, although he doesn't spell it out. That's where I'd start.

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According to the Nightvision description, compensating for normal darkness (-4 Sight PER) takes 8 Active points, or 5 Real Points with [-1/2 only to counteract natural darkness]

So why not do that with Aid? You don’t even have to break any rules to get it cheap.

 

Crappy penlight/cell phone light:  Aid  Sight PER vs Darkness 1d6, One Hour Fuel Charge (Battery; +0); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-4 to Stealth & Concealment; -1), Only to counteract darkness modifiers (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4). Active: 6, Cost: 1

(Note: Jiggle it an extra phase or two to max out the constant Boost for +3 vs darkness. Not really useful as illumination for others unless they’re right beside you.)

Shoplight Lantern:  Aid  Sight PER vs Darkness 2d6, One Hour Fuel Charge (Battery; +0), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-6 to Stealth & Concealment; -1), Only Restores To Starting Values (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4). Active: 18, Cost: 4

Light Spell:  Boost  Sight PER vs Darkness 2d6, Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2); OAF (Staff, Amulet, etc; -1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-6 to Stealth & Concealment; -1), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), Only Restores To Starting Values (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). Active 18, Cost: 4

 

That last interests me because it models Gandalf’s light spell best. He’d keep the light low to reduce the side effects and long-term END loss, but he could crank it up if he wanted too.

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On 12/19/2019 at 1:32 PM, redsash said:

According to the Nightvision description, compensating for normal darkness (-4 Sight PER) takes 8 Active points, or 5 Real Points with [-1/2 only to counteract natural darkness]

So why not do that with Aid? You don’t even have to break any rules to get it cheap.

 

Crappy penlight/cell phone light:  Aid  Sight PER vs Darkness 1d6, One Hour Fuel Charge (Battery; +0); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-4 to Stealth & Concealment; -1), Only to counteract darkness modifiers (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4). Active: 6, Cost: 1

(Note: Jiggle it an extra phase or two to max out the constant Boost for +3 vs darkness. Not really useful as illumination for others unless they’re right beside you.)

Shoplight Lantern:  Aid  Sight PER vs Darkness 2d6, One Hour Fuel Charge (Battery; +0), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-6 to Stealth & Concealment; -1), Only Restores To Starting Values (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4). Active: 18, Cost: 4

Light Spell:  Boost  Sight PER vs Darkness 2d6, Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2); OAF (Staff, Amulet, etc; -1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-6 to Stealth & Concealment; -1), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), Only Restores To Starting Values (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). Active 18, Cost: 4

 

That last interests me because it models Gandalf’s light spell best. He’d keep the light low to reduce the side effects and long-term END loss, but he could crank it up if he wanted too.

 

RaW: The aid spell has problems.

1) Aid only affects those within the area of the spell. 

2)The pen/cellphone light only allows others to see if you attack them with the aid.

3) Aid with costs end to maintain doesn't keep affecting new people to the aid, it just means you need to pay end for those already affected.  You will need to make the Aid also constant.

4) The light spell can not be seen from a distance.  In other words, if you wanted to use it to signal someone from across the darkness of night, they would not be able to see you.

5) Darkness modifiers are modifiers and do not drain anything from the character.  So that limitation only works if someone has drained them of sight (see optional rules on draining senses).

 

 

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I propose (and have previously posted about) a new Power that I'm calling Extras.  It's basically the Power equivalent to a generic Perk, and I've shamelessly ripped it off from M&M's Feature power. The generic Extra would have a cost of 1-10 points, and would give the character some minor helpful ability that isn't otherwise covered by a regular Power, or that the GM feels that no one needs to bother working out with a Power build.  If it's through a realistic gadget of some kind, it's half the cost, on the theory that it's replaceable but otherwise would be considered an OAF; if you need any more definition than that, you'd use the full cost and apply whatever Advantages and Limitations you want.  

 

The ability to create light could be considered an Extra.  If you can, for instance, cast a Light spell, it might cost 3-10 points depending on amount of light &c, and half of that -- 1-5 points -- for a flashlight.  If you want it to be a Maglite or something similar that you could bash someone over the head with, go back to the 3-10 points, apply OAF, and buy a couple of dice of HA through the same OAF.  

 

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Personally on the whole issue of the ability to produce light in a supers game (or have a cell phone, or etc.)

 

1) You can purchase a $2 pen light from the store.  It will not cost you points.  It will not have def or body as it's a story prop.  When the villain shows up, lights flicker and bulbs burn out or the first time you get knocked back, the thing breaks.  If you want something more dependable, pay points for it.

2) I understand the concept of change environment and gut instinct tells me its the way to do it.  After all, in D&D you get darkness penalties removed the farther out from the light source.  But I've come to understand why they use light as an image.  Using change environment means the  effect is only applicable within the area.  You can't really get the bonuses from the change environment outside the radius of the change environment effect.  With images, you can still see the image within the effect (i.e. the image doesn't disappear if you go outside the effect.  You still see it clearly with a +4 to see it.  The image is the bright spot in the center.  

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20 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

RaW: The aid spell has problems.

 

Agreed. first draft 🙂

 

20 hours ago, dsatow said:

1) Aid only affects those within the area of the spell. 

 

By design; increase aoe radius for a brighter light. Outside the lit circle a bright light won't help you make out details, although you can sure see the group benefitting from the light!

 

20 hours ago, dsatow said:

2)The pen/cellphone light only allows others to see if you attack them with the aid.

 

Also by design. It takes an action to redirect the light and keep it steady so another can see. Try helping someone to read with a cell light.

 

20 hours ago, dsatow said:

3) Aid with costs end to maintain doesn't keep affecting new people to the aid, it just means you need to pay end for those already affected.  You will need to make the Aid also constant.

 

According to the power description, making it cost end to maintain makes it constant. But I see your point about adding new people who come into a lit area. Sure: buy another Constant +1/2 for the two stronger effects.

 

Hmm, would one also have to make it Uncontrolled to get a repeated "attack" effect without using up an attack action? (Or is that an Advantage from an old edition? 🙂

 

20 hours ago, dsatow said:

4) The light spell can not be seen from a distance.  In other words, if you wanted to use it to signal someone from across the darkness of night, they would not be able to see you.

 

I don't see how one *could* cover that effect with Hero rules. I'd probably just let a player do that as part of the sfx. I might grant it as an Everyman skill: Primitive Signalling (requires a light source).

 

20 hours ago, dsatow said:

5) Darkness modifiers are modifiers and do not drain anything from the character.  So that limitation only works if someone has drained them of sight (see optional rules on draining senses).

 

Call it "not to enhance perception above normal values" if you prefer. Same limitation.

 

I thought of how to do a police mag light the other day; I will post that when I get a minute, and include your feedback.

 

Thanks!

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18 hours ago, redsash said:

 

By design; increase aoe radius for a brighter light. Outside the lit circle a bright light won't help you make out details, although you can sure see the group benefitting from the light! 

That's the point, outside the AoE radius, people would not have the aid to night vision and would not see people lit with the light.  To them, they would still have the penalty to their night vision (-4).

 

18 hours ago, redsash said:

Also by design. It takes an action to redirect the light and keep it steady so another can see. Try helping someone to read with a cell light.

I do a lot.  My mother in law has a hard time seeing in the dark with her macular degeneration so I use a cell phone light so she can see the menu.  I turn on the light so another person can read the menu.  I don't have to take any other action than that as she has enough sight to keep the menu in sight.  But this again is besides the point, the point isn't that you have to take an action to use the power.  The point is the power affects only one person per action.  If you use your aid penlight to light up a statue, your version of the penlight means that the person with you sees the statue.  But if you had 2 others with with you, only one would see the statue.  You would have to hit the other person with the aid to see the statue,  If then someone else came, you would have to hit that person with the aid. ad nauseum. 

 

18 hours ago, redsash said:

According to the power description, making it cost end to maintain makes it constant. But I see your point about adding new people who come into a lit area. Sure: buy another Constant +1/2 for the two stronger effects.

 

Hmm, would one also have to make it Uncontrolled to get a repeated "attack" effect without using up an attack action? (Or is that an Advantage from an old edition? 🙂

 

I think you mis interpreting 6e1p374.  What it means is that an instant power, such as an aid or flash, has a lasting effect.  The effect of that instant power will cost end to maintain.  Not paying the end for the power every phase means the effect disappears. 

 

Uncontrolled means the power will continue to run without your intervention.  So an uncontrolled power using end would continue to burn end even if you are unconscious.

 

18 hours ago, redsash said:

I don't see how one *could* cover that effect with Hero rules. I'd probably just let a player do that as part of the sfx. I might grant it as an Everyman skill: Primitive Signalling (requires a light source).

That's why they use Images.  While you still suffer range penalties, your chance of viewing the light image is at +4, cancelling the night penalty.

 

18 hours ago, redsash said:

Call it "not to enhance perception above normal values" if you prefer. Same limitation.

Again, I think you are missing the point.  Aid only to enhance someone up to normal values is a fine limitation it just doesn't fit here.  Someone who is looking around at night gets a modifier to their sight perception roll.  They aren't drained of perception, so the power would do nothing.  Its like if you do a haymaker, you take a -5 DCV modifier to your DCV.  Your DCV isn't drained, its a modifier to your DCV.  Its the same with perception.

 

If you like the idea of using Aid in your game for light, that's fine.  To be honest, the mechanics are just a fun exercise we do here to convert things to RaW on stuff which really doesn't need to be designed unless they make a difference in the game (per 6e1p10,31,32).  For most people a penlight would be covered in this.  A police maglight would be more useful so a design would be interesting to see.  

 

When you do the police maglight, I would keep in mind this scenario.  There is a darkened warehouse where a superhero and a supervillain are stalking each other in the dark.  A police officer comes in after the silent alarm triggers and sweeps the warehouse with his light.  The officer shines the light on the superhero.  All people can now see the superhero.  The superhero can't see the police officer clearly but knows his position as where the light is coming from.  The supervillain can see the superhero and knows where the light source is.  The police officer does not know where the supervillain is but can see the hero.

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The reason I do not like Aid as the base for this power is all to do with those outside the area of effect looking in.

 

If I am a sniper on top of a roof, 200m away.  I am in complete darkness and can see very little.  When the target walks into the room and turns on the light (to light their own environment) I am still in complete darkness and would not be able to target someone in the neighbouring room without a light but am really only dealing with range penalties for the target in the lit room.  How does the Aid solution provide the sniper with the ability to see in the room?

 

There is also the issue that generating light makes you visible from a long way off by people nowhere near the area of effect.

 

Doc

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Yes I did design an aid-based version which takes into account the sniper scenario, but it gets pretty clunky and expensive. No better than Images in the long run.

 

But then I thought it over and my new choice for this is Dispel. So simple! It works as written to illuminate a single target at range to all witnesses, or we can buy an AoE: radius, explosion, line or narrow cone to simulate torches, flashlights, etc. 

 

3d6 (standard effect: 9) would entirely counter the 8pts of effect from natural darkness (deduced from Nightvision).

 

Alternatively, 4d6 would dispel the 12AP necessary to create natural darkness affecting a single target with Change Environment.

 

I prefer the latter because it scales 1:1 with Dispel, including the way both powers treat Area of Effect.

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4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

No, no, no - the Dispel suppresses the Darkons!

 

57 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

That's really amazing!

 

 

Laugh all you want, but my youth group is currently attempting to deal with the problems created by a runaway darkon generator.  :lol:

 

This includes an increase in violent episodes in ordinary people, villains and even some heroes dipping away from their code of ethics, and a few zombies.  Darkons, it seems, drive the light out of _everything_ eventually....

 

 

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13 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I don't think Dispel against natural darkness is a thing, because there isn't anything there to dispel.  Natural darkness is a lack of light, not anything applied.

And I think this is the root of the problem.  We want something like natural light that mitigates the effect of natural darkness.  We also need some mechanism that allows us to game dark generating powers when they come up against light generating powers.

 

These are two different game mechanics masquerading as the same thing.  🙂

 

I think the sniper issue can be dealt with through simple SFX regardless of how everything else is working.  If you take Redsash's dispel build and give it SFX of generating light across the affected area then the sniper issue and 'real' effects of light are dealt with.  All the benefits and disbenefits of being in such light can be worked through as common sense.  We only need to consider the dispel aspect when that light comes up against a power that actively promotes darkness.

 

Doc

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55 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

And I think this is the root of the problem.  We want something like natural light that mitigates the effect of natural darkness.  We also need some mechanism that allows us to game dark generating powers when they come up against light generating powers.

 

These are two different game mechanics masquerading as the same thing.  🙂

 

I think the sniper issue can be dealt with through simple SFX regardless of how everything else is working.  If you take Redsash's dispel build and give it SFX of generating light across the affected area then the sniper issue and 'real' effects of light are dealt with.  All the benefits and disbenefits of being in such light can be worked through as common sense.  We only need to consider the dispel aspect when that light comes up against a power that actively promotes darkness.

 

Doc

 

I think the problem here is that the penalty to seeing at night is a modifier.  If you allow dispel to work on a modifier, then technically, you should allow dispel to work on any modifier, such as range, skill roll penalties, etc.  Its a slippery slope.

 

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21 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

And I think this is the root of the problem.  We want something like natural light that mitigates the effect of natural darkness.  We also need some mechanism that allows us to game dark generating powers when they come up against light generating powers.

 

These are two different game mechanics masquerading as the same thing.  🙂

 

I think the sniper issue can be dealt with through simple SFX regardless of how everything else is working.  If you take Redsash's dispel build and give it SFX of generating light across the affected area then the sniper issue and 'real' effects of light are dealt with.  All the benefits and disbenefits of being in such light can be worked through as common sense.  We only need to consider the dispel aspect when that light comes up against a power that actively promotes darkness.

 

Doc

I don't think any of the existing tools we have are perfectly suited to getting this peg in this particular hole.  I do think we can get this peg in this hole with something new.  I'm envisioning a minor houserule derived from Change Environment, with thanks to @redsash for setting me down this lane of thought. 

 

Change Environment spells out how to change the environment, and ambient darkness is just an environmental effect.  So in the same way that a Dispel Fire can put out a campfire despite the campfire not being explicitly built as a power or Suppress Wind can drop a kite from the sky despite the kite having no game statistics, let Suppress Dark turn off ambient darkness.  Therefore, "build" ambient darkness as CE -4 to normal sight, AoE 1m, 0 END.  That comes out to 14 AP which conveniently enough is the average result of 4d6, one die per point of penalty. 

So each 1d6 of AoE Suppress Dark will cancel a point of darkness penalty in its area. 

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22 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I don't think Dispel against natural darkness is a thing, because there isn't anything there to dispel.  Natural darkness is a lack of light, not anything applied.

 

This was the blind spot (ha) I had to overcome as well. Arguing from SFX (light vs dark) rather than game effects (change environment vs dispel).

 

Past that, it's an easy leap to conceptualize natural darkness as an uncontrolled environmental effect.

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8 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

I think the problem here is that the penalty to seeing at night is a modifier.  If you allow dispel to work on a modifier, then technically, you should allow dispel to work on any modifier, such as range, skill roll penalties, etc.  Its a slippery slope.

 

Range isn't a variation on the normal combat environment, like darkness is, so it would not apply.

 

Skill rolls -- well, I guess that depends. If the slope is slippery because of ice, would you as the GM allow Thaw Man to use his AoE Dispel vs Ice effects to mitigate the penalty to Climbing skill?

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7 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I don't think any of the existing tools we have are perfectly suited to getting this peg in this particular hole.  I do think we can get this peg in this hole with something new.  I'm envisioning a minor houserule derived from Change Environment, with thanks to @redsash for setting me down this lane of thought. 

 

My pleasure. It was bugging me 🙂

 

 

7 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Change Environment spells out how to change the environment, and ambient darkness is just an environmental effect.  So in the same way that a Dispel Fire can put out a campfire despite the campfire not being explicitly built as a power or Suppress Wind can drop a kite from the sky despite the kite having no game statistics, let Suppress Dark turn off ambient darkness.  Therefore, "build" ambient darkness as CE -4 to normal sight, AoE 1m, 0 END.  That comes out to 14 AP which conveniently enough is the average result of 4d6, one die per point of penalty. 

 

You don't even need the AoE, since Dispel and CE handle AoE the same way. Technically you can dispel the darkness on a single target with 12AP (which fits the effect of a long-range narrow beam spotlight).

 

 

7 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

So each 1d6 of AoE Suppress Dark will cancel a point of darkness penalty in its area. 

 

Yes, the math still works out the same with Standard Effect: 3pts/d6.

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1 hour ago, redsash said:

Range isn't a variation on the normal combat environment, like darkness is, so it would not apply.

Some could say that they have the ability to shorten distances between two points.  Like a teleporter.  In which case, if you let someone dispel a modifier for night time, why not let them dispel a modifier for range?

 

1 hour ago, redsash said:

Skill rolls -- well, I guess that depends. If the slope is slippery because of ice, would you as the GM allow Thaw Man to use his AoE Dispel vs Ice effects to mitigate the penalty to Climbing skill?

No and yes.  To be honest, I haven't been arguing the use of a special effect to create light as Doc Democracy and the others have mentioned.  Only the use of aid, dispel, and drain to change penalties or add bonus modifiers.  Using a power in this way is a power trick as noted on 6e1p86.  A person could use their Fire blast at 1d6 to create a torch or use their force field glow to read a newspaper at night.  Its what the power skill was designed for.  So yes, I would allow the dispel to dispel the ice.  If you really want a cheap light, you could pay 1 point for an energy blast that does 1 STUN at no range if you had a power which didn't have a special effect which would produce usable light.

 

But using aid, drain, and other adjustment powers on modifiers can disrupt the way the game works.  If you allow it, it's your game, have at it.  You, as GM, can control its use and make sure its used fairly.  But if you came to me hoping to insert that power into my game, I would object on the grounds I noted before and would suggest a number of other ways to solve the design issue.

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Final builds. Gandalf's spell gets stronger as the books wane on...

 

3       Torch: Suppress natural darkness 3d6, Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (11 Active Points); OAF (Torch; -1), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0)

 

7       Gandalf struck a blue light from the end of his magic staff: Suppress 5d6, Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), All Darkness Effects (+1/2) (26 Active Points); OAF (Staff; -1), Costs Endurance (3 END to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)

 

5       Flashlight: Suppress natural darkness 4d6+1 (standard effect: 13 points), Area Of Effect (16m Cone Explosion; +1/2), Thin Cone (-1/4), Mobile (12m per Phase; +1/2) (16 Active Points); OAF Fragile (Flashlight; -1 1/4), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0)

 

Weaponized Flashlight, all slots OAF (-1)

6       Suppress natural darkness 4d6+1 (standard effect: 13 points), Area Of Effect (16m Thin Cone Explosion; +1/4), Mobile (12m; +1/2) (19 Active Points); Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4)

3       Sight Group Flash 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Linked (Dispel; -1/2)

2       +5 PRE (5 Active Points); Linked (Flash; -1/2)

4       Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

 

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On 1/1/2020 at 12:00 PM, redsash said:

Final builds. Gandalf's spell gets stronger as the books wane on...

 

3       Torch: Suppress natural darkness 3d6, Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (11 Active Points); OAF (Torch; -1), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0)

 

7       Gandalf struck a blue light from the end of his magic staff: Suppress 5d6, Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), All Darkness Effects (+1/2) (26 Active Points); OAF (Staff; -1), Costs Endurance (3 END to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)

 

5       Flashlight: Suppress natural darkness 4d6+1 (standard effect: 13 points), Area Of Effect (16m Cone Explosion; +1/2), Thin Cone (-1/4), Mobile (12m per Phase; +1/2) (16 Active Points); OAF Fragile (Flashlight; -1 1/4), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0)

 

Weaponized Flashlight, all slots OAF (-1)

6       Suppress natural darkness 4d6+1 (standard effect: 13 points), Area Of Effect (16m Thin Cone Explosion; +1/4), Mobile (12m; +1/2) (19 Active Points); Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4)

3       Sight Group Flash 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Linked (Dispel; -1/2)

2       +5 PRE (5 Active Points); Linked (Flash; -1/2)

4       Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

 

 

I like this approach so much I will now be using it.  I never liked Images for light effects at all and had been using a variation of Change Environment.  This works even better.

 

Thanks!

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18 hours ago, PeterLind said:

I was just thinking of adding "Light" as a power which gives normal light in a 1" radius for 10 points.  Then expand from there . . . .

 

I think this could be a reasonable add-on to Change Environment.  Whether the price is right at a base 10 points, I don't know, but it does not seem unreasonable.  Making it the user's space for 10 points, we can always make CE area effect.

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You are right that I may have the starting cost a bit high.  5 points might be reasonable for the base 1" radius (1 hex), and then expand from there.  I see it as a power that could be used to counter Darkness fields, though special effects may vary.  Also, I would have no problem with allowing a player get creative with the power -- use the power to create a "flashlight" effect.  In 5E+ terms, this could be with use of the Power Skill.  

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