Why NOT use a multipower for magic?

[Chris Goodwin]

42 minutes ago, Panpiper said:

Ghads! A reply from a veritable god of Hero! I am in awe! Yours is a name I have known for decades Chris!

 

Another issue I have with most people's magic systems is that they are simply, overly complex.  I would kill (well, not literally) to play in a game run by Chris Goodwin, but there is again zero chance I would play a mage. Way too many criteria to meet and match to gain any sort of real power at all. Another jack of trades that can only shine when everyone else is lackluster.

 

Uh, thanks?    I'm just a regular guy, put my pants on one leg at a time.    

 

* * *

 

A Multipower sort of has a built-in Active Point cap.  Aside from that, and the 150-175 points generally available, I'd probably back off of strict caps for wizard players.  Weapon users are to an extent limited by the amount of points available, but also things like STR Minimum; I wouldn't cap DC or DEF values either, outside of what's available under the auspices of normal equipment.  I also tend to look askance at Deadly Blow and Combat Luck.  I tend to privilege wizards (or other power-users like mentalists) to an extent that since they pay points for everything, they can afford as much as they're willing to pay for, and those who rely more on no-point-cost equipment sort of have to take what they can get.  I also don't have too much of a problem with wizards buffing their teammates' weapons and armor with Aid and the like, or with non-wizards spending some of their initial point allocation on magic items, though I'd reserve GM-veto power over anything.  

[Panpiper]

I actually AM planning on a fairly high powered game, except characters start with only 175 points.

 

Here's what I have so far. This is very much at the inception, sidetracking at the end into a lot of detail on slavery.

 

Aether

A great magical war has torn a planet asunder, every civilization in the world was utterly decimated, no civilization survived. There were individual survivors however, and over the course of thousands of years, they adapted to the ruin left of their world. Some semblance of civilization has returned, with villages and towns walled against the dangers, and even the occasional city states.

Many parts of the world remain too dangerous to travel, and even in the safer areas, ancient weapons slumber. Many ruins of the old world are untouched since the war, as they lay within those areas too dangerous to travel, and who knows what lurks within, waiting to awake.

The war tore holes through dimensions in many places, and things not native to this world now are. Often they prey upon the human survivors. A few are friendly, or at least not hostile, such as the Dwarves and Elves, and there is a usually peaceful coexistence.

Magic exists in the world, but most people are understandably frightened by it, for using too much of it risks wakening ancient dormant powers.

The players are quite special in the world, even though they start out unknown. Fate has brought them together for who knows what purpose. Players can be reluctant heroes, they can be anti-heroes, but in the end they are heroes who will do the right thing. This is not a game of evil or villainy. 

This will be high fantasy with regard to the sorts of characters that could exist. The characters over time could well evolve to the super heroic, albeit still with a fantasy flair. Starting characters are 175 points including 50 points of matching complications. There are NO characteristic maxima, you can build Hercules if you want. (If you hit with a weapon strong enough to do 'more' than double it's listed damage, it will break. You could buy a weapon that could take the abuse, but you have to pay character points for it.) 

There is NO active point limit for starting powers and stats. However using any power with more than 60 active points risks awakening "things". The probability increases depending on how much you exceed 60 active points. Be careful when and where you use such extreme power. Note you could buy a power that exceeds 60 but when using it declare you are 'only' using 60 and you would not risk awakening things. Note too that this threshold could change depending upon where the character is. If you are close to a rift or a dormant power, even lesser power could awaken it.

You can buy a talent called Magic Acuity that allows you to safely cast magic exceeding 60 active points. The talent costs 1 point for every 1 point of excess power. Note this is a threshold bonus, not a power reduction. Normally using say 2 points of extra power would have a rather low chance of awakening anything. If a character had 2 points of Magic Acuity they could safely cast a 62 active point spell with no chance of awakening anything. If they cast a power with 63 points, they would still exceed the threshold by 3 points with the same probability of awakening something as would someone who had 'no' Magic Acuity.

Magic is bought straight up as powers, no frameworks, with as many limitations as are appropriate and thematic. Any character who spends more than 50 points in powers gains the right to apply an additional 'Custom Modifier' called 'Initiate' that is worth a -1/2 limitation on any and all their powers. This represents their effort devoted to their craft. Taking 75 points in powers changes that to 'Adept' and is worth a -1 limitation to any powers. Taking a full 100 points in powers changes that to 'Wizard' and is worth a whopping -2 limitation. Players may at their discretion use different words to describe this. It is the limitation granted by the devotion to magic that counts, not the label.

This is not quite a post-apocalyptic world in that enough time has passed for civilization to more or less re-establish itself, and for many of the world scars to have healed to some degree. The Great War however unleashed titanic magics that utterly obliterated the societies that were warring, and many remnants of the use of those magics litter the land. Gaps between worlds were sometimes torn. Numerous races hitherto unknown in the world, now live within it, some friendly, some not. Most such places are well known to locals and easily avoided. A few however are restless, an even fewer wander.

There are no large empires. Large empires tend to waken old weapons and are quickly reduced by those forces. While there are a good few quite impressive city states, most people live within walled towns and villages that tend to be independent. Most of them simply impose a land tax on those who own property inside the walls with most of the revenue collected going towards guarding the walls and the local roads. Occasionally a few towns and villages ally and create a common force that patrols the roads even more effectively. That is largely the limit to kingdom structure.

There is trade between towns, a good bit of it actually. Caravan guards however is also a thriving profession, and traders usually travel in packs. Adventuring is also a common profession, with various bounties and missions often posted in taverns. Law enforcement is often aided if not in some places almost wholly relied on with bounties, also posted in taverns. 

Punishments for crimes can be harsh, depending upon the communities. It is usually some sort of restitution, and if the guilty party cannot pay it, they are indentured as slaves to do so. Those they are indentured to for restitution may keep the slave themselves, rent them out often to mines and such for pay, or sell them at their discretion. 

The closest thing to a prison would be mines and the like where the indentured slaves work off their restitution. One can be indentured for failure to pay debts as well. Dead or alive bounties are rare, as they do not allow the prisoner to work restitution to their victims. Sometimes though, victims prefer revenge over restitution, so dead or alive bounties are not unknown.

There are two classes of slaves, those solely indentured who owe a sum that could be worked off, and the life indentured. Solely indentured have rights in most societies and can be legally abused only to the point necessary to compel their obedience. Life indentured are true slaves, they can be killed at the whim of their owners and they have no rights at all. Usually only murderers, bandits, and the like are made life indentured.

Children born to indentured slaves are in some places considered free and wards of the owners of their parents, but their support costs are added to the indenture. Such children can help work off the indenture for their parent. It is in most places illegal to force sex upon indentured slaves. For the life indentured, there is no such prohibition.

Stolen slaves, those who committed no crimes and were simply captured by raiders, are legal in some societies, not allowed in others. In societies where they are not legal, there is usually some bureaucracy with paperwork to trace the crimes and obligations of the indentured, and a slave without such paperwork would be freed. Things can get a lot less legal in places without such bureaucracies. 

[Panpiper]

11 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Uh, thanks?    I'm just a regular guy, put my pants on one leg at a time.    

 

I too am no real god, but I actually do put my pants on 'two' legs at a time.  I sit on the side of the bed, position the pants at my feet, insert both feet then roll back while kicking my legs out. Presto, pants on.

 

GM always has not just veto power as far as I am concerned (Including when I am a player of course), but also editor's privilege if necessary, though sparingly applied.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

• You'd have to have KS: Magical Theory and the KS for the school at maybe 14- before you can start buying those spells down to -1 per 20 Active.

 

 

DUDE!  

 

Change that to 16- and I'd swear you had copied my house rules!

 

 

[Panpiper]

1 minute ago, Duke Bushido said:

DUDE!  

 

Change that to 16- and I'd swear you had copied my house rules!

 

More likely a case of great minds thinking alike.

[Chris Goodwin]

14 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

DUDE!  

 

Change that to 16- and I'd swear you had copied my house rules!

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Panpiper said:

 

More likely a case of great minds thinking alike.

 

Indeed!  I won't pretend to be any kind of great mind, though.  I'll admit to pretty good, at least. 

[Duke Bushido]

Or perhaps soft minds running together?

 

 

 

 

[L. Marcus]

Just mind the gap, guys.

[Duke Bushido]

13 hours ago, Panpiper said:

Easier to play an elven archer

 

DAMMIT!! 

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 5/14/2020 at 9:53 PM, LoneWolf said:

The big advantage a spell caster has over a warrior is versatility.  Sure warriors get there weapons for free, but they all basically do the same thing.  It does not matter what type of weapon the warrior uses the defense is all the same.  DCV, resistant defense, and PD will work vs any normal weapon.  With spells I can create something that ignores all of those things.  As a spell caster I can create different spells to deal with any situation.  By using a multipower it becomes even easier.  Now instead of a few spells that can take care of a variety of problems I have dozens that can take care of any problem.

 

Consider that in most fantasy hero games a spell caster is going to have more limitation on their spells than a super hero would.  That makes the spells a lot cheaper.  Using a multipower makes that even more cost effective.  Take a 60pt multipower and add OAF, Requires a skill roll, incantations, and gestures that puts the cost of the pool to 20pts.  That puts the cost of s spell to 2pts, 4 if it is variable slot.  Slap on a few limitations on the spell itself and the cost drops to 1-2 points.  So for about 40pts I can have 20 60pt spells.  

Perhaps I’m reading into your post wrong but you seem to be Blaise about the limitations a magic user typically has. Take for example Fireball spell from fh4th. It’s a 2D6 RKA  with RSR yo use at full power is a -3 to the RSR. So that means to cast the spell reliably your going to have to have a higher Power roll or hope you roll low consistently. Consider this against a warrior and who has the better deal?  I agree magic users usually (and should) have access to stuff that a warrior should have.

[LoneWolf]

Most spell caster do have high magic rolls.  The Wizard package out of the book gives a starting wizard a magic roll of +5.  Assuming a 18 INT that means the starting wizard has a 18 or less.  Most games I have been in the wizard usually has an even higher roll.  That does not even include items that boost the roll.

 

Fireball is also a poor example because direct damage spells are not the ones you need to worry about.  Those  type of spells simply duplicate what a warrior can do, and that is not what makes a spell caster dangerous.  For 40 active points I can have a 4d6 drain INT.  On the average that is going to reduce a characters INT by 14.    This means a character with less than a 15 INT has a 9 or less chance to be able to take any action.   A 1d6 DEF 2 entangle that can only be escaped by using ego is only 34 active points.  If I bump that up to 2d6 DEF 3 the cost goes up to 56 points.  The first one is going to stop over half the characters, the second one is going to be even worse.  Do you really want me to have 20  spells like this?

[Ninja-Bear]

Well Lonewolf that depends. Is a GM going to allow those spells? Let’s go with yes for the moment, you are still spending a fair amount of points to be able to do those things and not all at once either. And speaking of GM letting you getting away with (legal) builds, I could build a warrior with less points that could kill your magic user before you can say abra cadabra! 

[Ninja-Bear]

Lonewolf on the side about Magic skill roll. I’ve felt it odd since I picked up Fantasy Hero 4th that suggested skills should be kept max 16- but magic skill rolls can be bought higher. I see the reason but still feel it’s a disconnect.

[L. Marcus]

Yeah, and the Super Scientists with a Science! Skill of 30- ...

[Chris Goodwin]

I used to be very strongly opposed to Multipowers for magic, for reasons others have mentioned.  Yet... I've come up with magic systems where the max Active Points a wizard can have in a spell are limited by some factor -- usually some multiple of the character's Ego.  And one possibility in FH 5th and 6th editions is to divide the costs of spells by some amount. 

 

If you have an Active Point cap, and individual spells for which you're paying reduced cost... you're already partway to a Multipower.  

 

I just have to get over that last bit of opposition in my own head, is all.

 

Edit to add: for that matter, if you're dividing the cost of all spells, or all spells of a certain type, by 2, you're partway to an Elemental Control.

[Ninja-Bear]

Also Lonewolf, Drain INT would that be halved? I’m thinking in this case INT would be defensive but I don’t know. Interesting spell.

[Tom Cowan]

Can the sword user have a mult-power with sword 'Skills' like naked auto-fire (call it 'swift strike' or something), AoE w/ hole (kill the horde) and Pen (death by 100 cuts)?

Yeah, taking a page from The Ultimate Brick.  p46.  brick trick, sword trick what ever you name it. (lot of swordsmen are lite bricks)

[Chris Goodwin]

By RAW, sure.  Not my favored campaign style, and they wouldn't get any spell-based cost breaks.  

[drunkonduty]

I think it all comes own to what feel are you hoping for in your game.

 

If you want low fantasy multipowers may not work. Although if you limit the size of the pool they would probably still be ok.

 

Another thing that might make them acceptable, to the the GM at least, is for the GM to actually write up all the spells. Which is a lot of bloody work.

 

[LoneWolf]

I would not  count on being able to build a warrior that can take down a wizard before he can act.

 

Start with a 45 point multipower and add OAF, incantations, gestures, and requires skill roll.  That makes the pool cost 15 points. Each spell is going to cost me 1 point assuming a fixed slot.  Below are just a few sample spells.

1.        1d6 DEF 2 entangle uses OMCV vs DMCV, takes not damage at all, goes vs EGO
2.        1d6 Mental Blast 20 shot auto fire at ½ END. 
3.      . 9d6 Mind Control

The Wizard has an 18 INT and 20 EGO and a OMCV of 8.  He also has +12 skill levels with the second slot of the multipower.   His magic roll is on an 18 or less.  The cost for all this is only 76 points.  That leaves another 99 points for standard starting Fantasy Hero character to purchase anything else he needs.

 

So my Wizard acts as if he had a 20 DEX so will be going before a lot of warriors.  On an average roll of his mental blast he will hit 10 times for an average of 35 damage.  His other two spells hit on a 16 or less vs your typical warrior and may incapacitate the warrior. 

 

I can also use the multipower for utility spells as well.  Who needs stealth when I have invisibility.  Telepathy and other mental power can make social skills a moot point.  Why bother with languages when a translation spells (universal translator) can allow me to speak any language. 

 

The other problem I have with using a multipower for magic is that it is unfair to the non-spell casters.  Mundane characters can purchase powers as talents and even as martial maneuvers. Are you allowing talents and martial arts to be put into a multipower? If not that is unfair to the other characters.  Once this happens it will change the nature of the game and you are going to end up running something more like a champions game instead of Fantasy Hero. 

[Chris Goodwin]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Once this happens it will change the nature of the game and you are going to end up running something more like a champions game instead of Fantasy Hero. 

 

This is the last sticking point with me.  

 

I'd quibble a bit with your sample Multipower.  I would generally red-pencil a 1d6 20 shot Autofire anything, as well as +12 CSLs with it.  

 

Agreed on the undesirability of fantasy Champions.  

[Ninja-Bear]

8 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I would not  count on being able to build a warrior that can take down a wizard before he can act.

 

Start with a 45 point multipower and add OAF, incantations, gestures, and requires skill roll.  That makes the pool cost 15 points. Each spell is going to cost me 1 point assuming a fixed slot.  Below are just a few sample spells.

1.        1d6 DEF 2 entangle uses OMCV vs DMCV, takes not damage at all, goes vs EGO
2.        1d6 Mental Blast 20 shot auto fire at ½ END. 
3.      . 9d6 Mind Control

The Wizard has an 18 INT and 20 EGO and a OMCV of 8.  He also has +12 skill levels with the second slot of the multipower.   His magic roll is on an 18 or less.  The cost for all this is only 76 points.  That leaves another 99 points for standard starting Fantasy Hero character to purchase anything else he needs.

 

So my Wizard acts as if he had a 20 DEX so will be going before a lot of warriors.  On an average roll of his mental blast he will hit 10 times for an average of 35 damage.  His other two spells hit on a 16 or less vs your typical warrior and may incapacitate the warrior. 

 

I can also use the multipower for utility spells as well.  Who needs stealth when I have invisibility.  Telepathy and other mental power can make social skills a moot point.  Why bother with languages when a translation spells (universal translator) can allow me to speak any language. 

 

The other problem I have with using a multipower for magic is that it is unfair to the non-spell casters.  Mundane characters can purchase powers as talents and even as martial maneuvers. Are you allowing talents and martial arts to be put into a multipower? If not that is unfair to the other characters.  Once this happens it will change the nature of the game and you are going to end up running something more like a champions game instead of Fantasy Hero. 

Ok you’re building a wizard to specifically build against “typical” warriors.  My warrior has mental defense, why you ask cause he’s a ninja. I’ve never seen a wizard with +8 lightning INT reflexes but if you went that way trust me I can go higher. Btw, one cast of a net and you’re a sitting duck. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Lonewolf here is where I disagree with your argument against Multipowers. You’ve shown some creative and I would think even you would say “abusive” and multipowers make those spells cheaper therefore Multipowers are bad. Correct? Therein lies my disagreement. Those spells are “abusive” whether at full cost or discounted price. True a MP may allow you to buy more but why should a GM allow those spells in the first place?  Why shouldn’t a wizard have access to several spells if they’re reasonable? Not only that but the savings in spells means the wizard might have other skills?

[IndianaJoe3]

15 hours ago, Tom Cowan said:

Can the sword user have a mult-power with sword 'Skills' like naked auto-fire (call it 'swift strike' or something), AoE w/ hole (kill the horde) and Pen (death by 100 cuts)?

Yeah, taking a page from The Ultimate Brick.  p46.  brick trick, sword trick what ever you name it. (lot of swordsmen are lite bricks)

 

Naked Advantages can't be in a framework without GM permission.

[LoneWolf]

The sample powers I put in the multipower were specifically designed to refute the argument that you could build a warrior for fewer points that could take out the wizard before he could act.  The second power is a little much and I probably not allow it myself as is.  The first power is based off of the classic D&D hold person, and the last one is a simple mind control. 

 

The Wizard has a 20 EGO and the sample spells all act based on EGO instead of DEX.  Most Wizards have a high ego so building spells like this helps keep them alive.  It also means that they can use mental combat skill for most of their spells.

 

The arguments that they were built specifically to target the typical warrior brings up another problem with using a multipower in FH.  When spells only cost 1 point I can afford to create a lot of spells specifically designed to deal with specific types of targets.  So vs your Ninja I use a 2d6 DEF 4 entangle 1 hex accurate, or maybe a 3 ½ D6 Drain INT uses OMCV vs DCV.  I also have a variety of standard spells in the pool, each with a different special affect.  So anything that has a vulnerability will be attacked with an appropriate spell. 

 

A multipower makes a wizard too versatile.  This is going to create a situation where the GM has a hard time creating encounters for the party without the wizard always having the right spell to take them out.  This introduces the caster vs martial disparity that is seen in other game.  The lack of this is one of the things that in my opinion is the strong points of FH.  Unlike say Pathfinder being a warrior does not mean your character is considered a low tier character.  A well-built warrior in FH can be just as powerful as a wizard.  Giving the Wizard a multipower when the warrior does not have access to this brings this into FH.