Black Rose

My husband's parents tested negative, thankfully.

Remember in a fantasy game: A Wizard Did It!
Remember in a superhero game: Radiation Did It!

I don't know that there is a most common job.
 
My instinct is that he makes balloon animals.
 
I've also wanted to have a hero with
 
PS: Billionaire
 
No money perk. He's just really skilled at being a billionaire. 

Are you talking about these?

A starting point could be making the standard cost for mental powers 10 points per 1d6, rather than 5 points, but making them cumulative by default. Under the current model, the same 60 points I could use for 12d6 Mind Control would buy 6d6 Cumulative Mind Control, with a 144 point maximum accumulation (Cumulative, plus two doublings). Just making it cumulative without limit would not be a huge change.
 

As a revival strategy, a strong series of adventure paths would not be a bad idea. It certainly allowed Paizo to springboard, and build a game world one stage at a time. It's odd that, when the big players (including Hero) decided adventures were not the product line to focus on, Paizo came from nowhere and became a major player by first focusing on the adventures.
 
I think there is some merit in a "quick start" sulebook that would have little or no character creation. This would be bundled with a second book which combines a setting and builds for that specific setting, with point costs, but not full builds. The full build could be made available as an "online extra". The build rules would be in a full Hero System product, not directly linked to any "Powered by Hero System" game. It would need a name that clearly spells out that it is the "Advanced Options and Custom Design" rules, not a game in itself.
 
So, in the game store, we have a Supers campaign book bundled with the basic rules set, a Fantasy setting bundled with the same basic rules, a Sci Fi setting, a Pulp setting, what have you. But these have all of the powers - superpowers, sci fi weapons, psionics, mutant powers, spells, weapon maneuvers, etc. described and priced, but not built. You want to build your own powers, spells, etc.? Buy the Full System Rules. You're happy playing with the game setting and its pre-builds (and nothing prevents having three volumes of additional power builds for successful settings), then you might never look at the customization rules.
 
I think the expansion of the rule set for character (and, more notably, character ability) creation has demonstrated that the pool which values this customization over the simplicity of pre-fab powers is not large enough to support the system and generate regular product releases. It's the model I like, but it's not the model that wins when mass marketed.
 
Is that a 7th edition? I don't think so. You could do this with any edition. But instead of the present Champions Complete, we would have the combat rules portion of that book (with maybe a few of the "not often used for Supers" options added back in), the core mechanics (how characteristics work, how skills work, maybe the skills entirely as they are pretty portable) but no "ability creation" as the "System Rules". The "Game" portion would feature guidelines on characteristic levels, skills to be used (or not used), their likely levels and a host of pre-built SuperSkills, Super Powers, Martial Arts Packages, Complications, etc., plus a basic setting with a number of sample characters. Round it out with an introductory adventure, ideally one which serves as the first few sessions introducing a larger Adventure Path as those have now developed in the market.
 
Then support the lines that sell with more books. More adventure paths, perhaps altering some of the character rules to fit their tone (Dark Champions, Teen Champions, Galactic Champions). Supplemental power builds - some just adding more powers, others built to a theme (e.g. a gadgets book that also introduces pre-fab vehicles and bases with add-ons, a martial arts book that rolls out ranged martial arts packages, etc.).
 
That would look a lot like D&D and Pathfinder, you say? Yeah, it would. THEY SELL. But they don't have that core system that allows you to build your own game, replacing the races, classes, spells and feats. If you don't want that, at least we are hopefully a viable choice over D&D and Pathfinder. If you do, Hero is the only real choice.
 
So I guess I agree with "don't lose the power construction system". But I disagree with it being the "core rules". Power construction is the "advanced option". Unlike most games, where "design a race/class/spell" is a really tough book to create, Hero has a system behind the existing abilities, making a "design your own" book a breeze - it's the book the designers of the games used.
 
Hero is not a game - it is a game design system. If we want to bring more people to Hero, Hero needs to sell games, not just the system.

There is an easy fix for mental powers.  Double the cost to 10 points per 1d6, but they are Cumulative with no limit to the roll.  Declare your desired effect, and you must build up enough points against the target to achieve it.
 
This would make mental powers very similar to doing Stun - it takes a few hits to remove the target from the battle. But having used that 6d6 Mind Control 3 times, averaging 21, you now have 63 points of effect, and can keep rolling to increase it (penalize breakout rolls).

Okay; my mistake.  Thank you for the clarification, by the way.  I _was_ parsing it correctly, it seems.  It wasn't making sense because I was too exhausted to remember that you're not playing the same edition I am.  Got in now; thank you again.
 
Oruncrest posted this really helpful list of possibly-invented-only-to-make-"useless"-values-useful mechanics:
 
 
 
And he finished it up with one my my biggest 4e and up pet peeves:
 
 
 
This should not be.  This never should have been.
 
4e was 3e compiled with the outliers sanded off and whacked into an essentially-Champions format, right?
 
In 3e, there was Mental Illusions.  I think it's just "Illusions" now; if I get interested enough, I'll look it up.   There was also-- for anyone who either had Champions II ("the best supplement ever edited by someone" according to Bruce Harlick     ) or "Images" for those who had Fantasy HERO.
 
Those of us who came in through the Capes and Cowls door understood instantly that it was Mental Illusions minus the "based on ECV."  Those who came in through the Hiking and Hacking trail likely figured it out on their own pretty quickly.  They also had an advantage: right there in the same book they could see that the two had the exact same mechanic: roll your effect dice and compare your results to multiples of the target's characteristic.  For the mental approach, you compared it to EGO.  For light-based stuff, you compared it to INT.  Yep.  Intelligence.  Every point of INT prevented you from being deceived by light- (you know, I'm just going to say "non-mental" ) illusions.  Huzzah!  It was useful for something other than skill!
 
The 4e came out and unified everything.  You know: group all the like things as like things and give them a group name.
 
 
Except for the _one_ case that we've decided to cock that all up and invent an entirely new and utterly baffling mechanic (which I have been ignoring-- with great success-- since 1989, because it's asinine):
 
If you fail your PER roll, then you believe it's real.
 
That's 'tarded, Dude.
 
What?!
 
If I fail my PER roll, I can't even see the damned thing.
 
No; you can see it.
 
Without a PER roll?
 
Right.
 
I need I PER roll to find the phone alcove (remember those?!) it's placed in, but I can see the illusion automatically.
 
Right.
 
You understand just how stupid that sounds?
 
Well that's the way it works, okay?  Now roll your PER dice to see if you _believe_ it or not.
 
That's not even how PER rolls _work_!
 
Well they have to make this one adjustment-- this special-circumstance kind of case, just for Images, okay?
 
Why?  Why would you, instead of inventing an new mechanic, create a special circumstance that damned-near _reverses_ the way I freakin' PER roll works in EVERY OTHER CASE?!
 
Well they had to.
 
Why?
 
Because they changed the mechanic for non-mental illusions.
 
So all Illusions work against PER now?
 
No.  Just the one.  The non-mental one.
 
If I get hit with a Mental Illusion, the attacker has to get like two or three times my EGO or something like that for me to believe it's real, right?
 
Something like that, but it's INT if we're doing Fantasy.
 
So how high does he have to roll to make me believe his Scooby-ghost-on-a-cloud is real?
 
He doesn't.
 
Why the Hell not?  I just automatically think it's real?
 
No, Mike; I _told_ you.  You have to fail a PER roll.
 
So I only think it's real if I can't f'n see it?  You do understand just how bull spittle that sounds, right?
 
 
Wait twenty years or so.  There will be a fifth edition.
 
Oh, thank the gaming gods!  Wait-- why does it take so long to fix something that used to work then got dicked with for no sensible reason?
 
Uhmm...   it won't be fixed.
 
Why the hell not?  And why would I want to wait that long for it to not be fixed?!  So what happens in that future book?  I trip over it or something?
 
No; don't be stupid.  It's just an illusion.
 
An illusion that I believe to be real if I can't perceive it.  So if I walk into it, I somehow know it's there without actually perceiving it, think it's real, twist my ankle, and fall off the stairs into the endless ravine.  Is that it?
 
Don't be like that.  This has nothing to do with Images.  It's just that you can't build your torches with Change Environment anymore.
 
Hunh?  Okay.  Why not?
 
You have to use Images.
 
Are you FRAKKIN' kidding me?!
 
No.  It doesn't matter, though-- it's just light.  
 
Light that I know is working but is totally useless to me because in order to perceive the light illuminating something, I have to fail to see the light illuminating something?
 
Not exactly; no.  Not in this case.  Think of it as a "special circumstance" kind of thing---
 
 
No!  No; I will not.  Up yours, and up the goofy special circumstance from a special circumstance for a special circumstance all born of the fact that someone thought it was perfectly practical to dick up a totally-tested and proven AND STILL USED IN OTHER CASES mechanic.  No; screw that, Jeff.  I am not doing this.  Break out the d10s and blood pool markers.....
 
 
So yeah.  INT once had a similar function, and it was taken away because someone decided this _one_ particular power needed to change from a solid mechanic to a damned sketchy one that required even more sketchiness from other parts of the system.
 
 
Can't tell you why, but I _can_ tell you it's damned irritating every time I remember that.
 
 
Short version, GB(i):  if you want INT to have a similar defensive granularity, then decide you want to make Images/Illusions work they way they were intended to.
 
 
 

I recall there being some call for moving to fewer Powers at one time, but with more modifiers. Powers would be Attack, Defend, Move, Sense, and (if I recall) Transform. Modifiers would be used to derive the rest.
 
It'd be interesting to develop a HERO variant that way. I'm not sure it'd be an improvement, though.

It could be done with 4e, 5e or 6e, and it was, at least to a large extent, 1e through 3e.
 
Make ACTUAL GAMES that use the Hero System as their engine.  Take that system, with its array of dials and switches and possible ranges of ability, and publish a game that uses the system - that sets the dials and the switches to create the feel desired for the specific game, and presents only those aspects of the rules which are needed to run that game.
 
Perhaps we want a Fantasy game.  It will be Heroic.  So we set our starting characters at 175 points, and 50 points of complications.  Done.  NO OTHER OPTIONS.  You can choose to use different CP, but our game does not.
 
What should their characteristics be?  Perhaps we state outright that no PC can have stats higher than a 20 in any primary characteristic, that few would ever have less than an 8, and that most would have half their characteristics (at most) above 15, and no more than 1 or 2 above 18.   Maybe some races are 3 points higher in one stat and 2 points lower in two others (or what have you).  The point is that we MAKE A DECISION and that is how this game is played.
 
Similarly, we set standards for the secondary stats like defenses and SPD.
 
Maybe we impose greater restrictions - characters cannot have more than 15 in any Primary and similarly set caps for each secondary.  They may then take a single Race template, and up to two Profession templates.  Elves are Agile (+3 DEX), Rogues are Agile (+3 DEX) and Acrobats are Agile (+3 DEX), so an Elf who is both a Rogue and an Acrobat, and buys 15 DEX as a base, can have a 24 DEX.  But none of these templates are especially Hardy, so the best CON he may have is a 15 (maybe some races or professions even have a reduced characteristic).  Maybe you can have as many Professions as you can pay for.
 
We set Skills, and perhaps a starting character may buy only base skills (no extra bonuses), so if you did not invest in DEX, your best agility skill will be 11-.  Some may be in Professions, and maybe we allow for up to X skill levels (or maybe starting characters only get skill levels from Races and Professions).  Perhaps we rename or remove some skills, and set parameters on others.
 
Let's add some Perks and Talents which might be part of those templates, or could be acquired separately.
 
Now, we probably want some Powers, but perhaps we do not call them this.  Maybe we have Extraordinary Abilities, Supernatural Abilities and Spells.  Maybe we have more than one kind of spell.  Perhaps you can only buy pre-fabs (in fixed amounts, or variable amounts - e.g. you decide how many d6 your FlameBolt will do, but a Mystic Shield is always 4 rPD, 6 rED).  Maybe you need specific professions to purchase from certain lists.  We also define our magic system here.
 
Now, if all Wizard Spells require a Wizard Staff, Gestures and Incantations, we don't need to say that in every wizard spell - we just apply those limitations.   Maybe the occasional Wizard Spell can be cast without an Incantation (price it that way, and specify that it is one of those rare exceptions).  Perhaps very skilled casters can overcome these limits (powers built with naked advantages).  No need to spell out the builds.  They could always go in an appendix, or online, but that's not essential.
 
Ditto complications - maybe we remove some we dislike for this game (e.g., no Hunteds; the PCs will make their enemies as they go).
 
We provide the core rules - but maybe there is no Radar in our magical realm (so we leave that sense group out).  Perhaps Blindsense is common, so we write that up using Detect and include it. 
 
We include the combat maneuvers we want, and exclude those we don't.  Perhaps our game will use velocity-based DCV, so we include those rules, and vehicles and mounts, so those rules stay.  No Bases though - PC's don't get to buy a castle.  Maybe we'll include them in a later supplement.  Include those combat rules we wish to use - maybe some maneuvers are not in our game.  Maybe there are no martial arts - simulate them with skill levels, Limited bonuses to CVs and/or DCs, etc.
 
Now, toggle the switches - either we will use wounding or we leave it out.  Same choices for hit locations, Impairing, Disabling, Knockdown/back, Bleeding, Critical Hits - at the extreme, maybe we implement the "ignore STUN" option.  Maybe we include Interposing. 
 
Perhaps we decide characters never recover in combat (reprice Recovery as it is for BOD only, or remove it entirely; a few minutes' rest restores all STUN and END, but running out in combat means you are out).  Maybe we remove END.  Unless we use Long-Term End, we remove those rules as well.  We choose the model of Pushing to be used, and that is the only model in the game.
 
Some environmental effects, like radiation and zero gravity, are not intended for our game, so we leave them out.  Others reflect only those elements relevant - we don't need lasers or electrical outlets, but we have lightning bolts and flaming oil and torches.
 
Maybe we exclude underwater for another supplement, or perhaps we deliberately leave out things like pressure, the bends, etc. - those don't happen in this magical world.
 
Clearly, we will need weapons, armor and maybe rules for magical gear.
 
The point, of course, is that this is not "A system to build any game you want" or even "a system to design your own fantasy game".
 
It is ONE Fantasy game, powered by the Hero System.  You want to do some customizing?  Well, pick up the full system rules and customize to your heart's content.  But our game will stick with the rule book, and any supplements we may decide to publish later.

Isn't that the "cinematic reality" we are working to simulate?
 
 
Quite right.  In Champions 1e (including early Enemies books), we knew that a normal human had a 10 DEX, and (from the character writeups) Supers started at 18-20, 23 was pretty typical, 26 was a bit faster, and 30 - 35 was about as agile as our Supers got.
 
But we had no benchmark for "above average human", "the peak of human agility" or crossing the border to Legendary" and "Superhuman".  It was only when the "normal human" games came along that we started to get conceptual values for that.
 
If 1e had dropped every DEX score by 9-10, every CV by 3 and every SPD by 2, characters would have felt pretty similar in comparison to one another, agents would have been less of a joke, there would have been less need for Reduced END and more value to REC (as PS 12 would roll around more often) and we would have had more points to spend on other stuff.  We would have looked at that 12 point SPD chart even more oddly when SPD capped out at 5 or so, too. 
 
But once 1e set the stage, and a decision was made (at each later edition) to maximize backwards compatibility, we were more or less stuck.
 
 
To me, 6e could fix that quite easily.  Pre-6e, it was impossible to have competitive CVs at a reasonable point expenditure without Legendary DEX.  You could do it if you dropped CVs by 3 across the board, but that would be a significant change.
 
6e?  I buy CV instead.  Where we want CV as a baseline can be segregated entirely from DEX.  A high DEF character with an 8 DEX?  Why not?  DEX means acting first (but if we have equal SPD, that is only really an advantage once) and good Agility skills - not really something our Brick or Blaster characters are typically known for.  As long as you can take that first hit (or Abort to avoid it), low DEX is not that big a deal for many characters.
 
 
But what is "pretty good"?  Even if we moved to a "DEX is normal human unless concept calls out for something else" would see an 8 be a very slow Super (much like an 8 in d20 is a dump stat, not an average).  I would expect non-agile Supers to be in the area of 13 DEX (a bit better than average) and a lot would be in the 18 range.  But that's a lot lower than they are now.

I always liked the idea of OGLing the rules.  One could argue that the success of D&D is at least in part to the magnificent PR stunt that was OGL.  We need an online SRD to go along with it and a genuine effort on the part of DoJ to support fan made content as vigorously as Wizards do.  That means creating channels to distribute and possibly peer review fan made content.
 
I personally would love to have the ability to embed an SRD into the HERO System Mobile app without risking legal retribution.  It would open up a lot of possibilities for developers like me, granted this is a selfish request but I think it's worth risking looking selfish this time.
 
I feel like there needs to be zero or as low as possible barriers for entry for players, GMs and game designers to get into HERO.  Right now, the perceived barrier is high because if the 2 tomes and lack of a baseline setting in either.  It's intimidating, but at least the * Complete series of books makes it better.
 
On the topic of settings I also feel it's imperative to take an opinionated stance that this system is about supers at it's core.  Don't get me wrong, I love the systems ability to scale up or down and to suit the genre but this game was made for supers and does supers so well that it would foolish to not use this as the selling point.  To put it another way, make the Champions setting the default setting that ships with the rules.  
 
In summation: OGL the core rules (just enough to cover the basics) and publish them online for free, make an SRD, create and sell a Champions core book, create APG and the tomes and sell those marketing the APGs to players and the tomes to GMs. 

If you could make HERO designer work as a web page that can run on any browser and not require Java installed (or Silverlight for that matter) you would be very popular

The vitriol against Fuzion stems from a few issues.
 
During a period when HERO had been MIA on the market for quite some time (no new books in a couple of years time) Fuzion came out. heralded as an "innovative new system" that was a combination of HERO and R Talsorian Games Interlock system (mekton, cyberpunk etc) which was very strange because the two systems had very different task resolution systems.
 
The first book released in the system was the Bubblegum Crisis rpg. that was something near and dear to my heart (one of my favorite anime of all time) and the end result, mechanically speaking, was less than stellar (the books make excellent reference material though)
 
At that time fuzion was new and mostly untried. it was clunky. it couldnt decide if it wanted to use a 3d6 mechanic or a 2d10 mechanic (it suggested either method) it included stun and body from hero, but reduced down to interlock level stats (2-10) but couldnt decide where the human average was. (One book suggested 4 was human average, another suggested higher or lower stats). It also added KILLS from mekton for dealing with heavy weaponry, which is a system fairly incompatible with heros stun and body damage system. the whole game was a schitzophrenic mess.
 
I had a discussion with one of the writers of the BGC rpg shortly after its release. Benjamin Wright who was a long standing employee of RTG, was under the impression that the interlock people and the hero people couldnt agree on which mechanics should go into the game, which is why it turned out to be such a mess. that initial experience with fuzion forever tainted my personal perspective on the game. it was a poorly implemented mess of a game that ruined what would have been the crown jewel rpg book (IMO) had it been presented in either hero or interlock (most fans expected it to be a supplement for mekton. suprise suprise)
 
The next fuzion book that came out was champions: the new millenium. this version of fuzion was obviously better thought out than the initial version printed in the bgc book, but was even less well recieved; mainly by long time champions fans who were afraid that this new version of champions was going to be the official replacement of the old version. whatever one might think about fuzion, positive or negative, it was NOT the HERO of old. fans were outraged not only by the vast changes to time proven game mechanics, but by a major overhaul in the theme and presentation of the champions universe. they advanced it to late iron-age style aka the Image era-style of supers which many elder champions fans did not appreciate (there was not much love among those fans for that style of superhero comics)
 
Thus the hatred of fuzion runs deep. one really did need to "be there" to fully grasp what happened to cause this. just be aware that it was not arbitrary and suggestions to change to anything resembling fuzion will likely be heavily resisted. that last attempt left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
 
That being said, fuzion did generate some fans. most of which came either from people who played some interlock or mainly from those unfamiliar with either system and thus had no dog in that fight one way or another. but from the hero side of the fence, the vast majority of the fans wanted nothing to do with it.
 
As for me, i loved both hero AND interlock. they are my two favorite systems and even i couldnt find anything positive about fuzion. take that for what it is worth.

I think that Lucius hits the nail on the head in at least one instance, it is the percerption of complexity rather than actual complexity. From what I have seen though, that is their EXCUSE for not playing, not necessarily a valid REASON. As Hero is a toolkit, any of these changes are possible under the current structure. In fact, in my heroic games, I have tried adjustments to how skills are calculated to 7+STAT/3 or 5+STAT/2 (BTW if you limit stats to the 3-18 range, you can use the stat as a straight roll, making every point significant... but this makes anything over 18 problematic, trading one set of problems for another really), making the stats have more breakpoints in the lower regions. I also have tried getting rid of the killing mechanic by just using the same number of dice as the normal attack and applying defenses appropriately. I also set all my base rolls at 10+ rather than 11+. It can be interesting and fun to try these variations, but aside from the last, the remainder are gimmicky and really don't simplify or make the game significantly better. Any game that divides a stat to arrive at another number will have breakpoints. This too, is an EXCUSE rather than a REASON. I expect that if you got honest answers from current players of other systems, the vast majority would have to admit they WON'T change their system regardless. Most won't admit this, because of course, everyone wants to look reasonable and open, but with most things in life, they prefer what they are used to rather that what is or at least might be better. Changing Hero to suit them is a dog without teeth, because even if changed, it likely won't gain a bigger market share or even better notoriety. The lie that is the "complexity" of Hero compared to other games has already done its damage, and likely cannot be overcome, except by running games that these people want to play in. Settings, competent and fun game masters are the best way to pioneer for Hero. I had hoped the franchise of MHI would help the brand some due to that, but I think the snowball that is D&D/PF is already gargantuan and its momentum unstoppable. Pathfinder was a fluke, primarily because it really is a differently polished D&D clone, and it hit at a time that could exploit the disappointment with 4E. In other words, change Hero to your hearts content if it makes it a better game for YOU but you won't convert the unwashed masses...

In Champions Powers, under Miscellaneous Powers, there is a “Nega Beam” which is (I believe) intended to simulate Darkseid’s attack. It is hideously expensive, being a Summon for a 1,000+ point construct. But it does home in on its target. 

So Chuck Norris became famous because he defeated some lightweight?
 
I knew it!
 
j/k

That's just a loss of face
 

I haven't read through a lot of this thread, but I'd thought I'd toss in a few cents worth of thoughts. (i'm on break so I'll have to make this quick)
 
Back in the day, I was trying to get players to more actively role play out their character's conversations and actions (it was the in thing).  I had read a lot of the GM aid style books (I always like to try and improve my GMing) and was following its advice.  This was when one of the players pulled me aside and gave me a bit of advice which summarized to "Some players will never act out a conversation or skill or feel too uncomfortable to do this.  Game play shouldn't make the player feel uncomfortable but rather have fun."  Now these aren't the exact words but their meaning.  A player wanted to be a con man but his own personal abilities just wouldn't let him do this in any conceivable way.  And even though I never penalized him or the other players, he wasn't having fun.  Another player caught on to this more than I did and told me.  I went back to the 3d6 roll and summarized the results.  For him,  blue booking, etc. just wouldn't work.  He wanted to role play out a fantasy in the game but didn't have the personality or skill to pull it off.  Worse, it made him feel uncomfortable to play in that way.
 

See APG2 112 for optional rules regarding sleep and sleep deprivation.

Okay, I'm willing to admit I probably missed something basic her, but I'm asking anyway.
 
What is the game effect of missing sleep? As in, if I created an attack that simulated the target not sleeping for a week (or whatever), what would that effect be?
 
TIA

Re: A Challenge
 

The obvious one that comes to my mind is:
 
Methods: An assassin knows all sorts of ways to kill people. Many of them are rather... obvious... but there are quite a number that look perfectly reasonable and natural, for a given value of natural. Poisons, slipping off a balcony, breaking your neck falling off a spooked horse, et cetera et cetera et cetera.
 
Assessing the price of the "hit": Any assassin worthy of the name needs to be able to look at a target and determine just how tough a job killing them is going to be. Included in that assessment is the cost of materials, lead-in time, and just how expensive - both in currency and intangibles - the hit is going to be for the assassin. Also, you've got to be able to tell how much the client is willing to pay.

Re: Immunity and invulnerability
 
Here's an old thread where I posted a possible custom Power to do Invulnerability:
 
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1698
 
Here is the full post:

 
If Invulnerability were really really desired in a campaign, I would recommend using the 'Create New Power' rules in FREd.
 
 
 
Figure out how much it costs to be Invulnerable to an SFX using Desolid vs Damage Type, and then redefine it as "Invulnerability" with a behavior tailored to the effect desired.
 
 
So, Desolid, Only to Protect against Limited Form of Attack, 0 End, Persistant gets us close. Then, we will want to "Buy off" the built in "cant affect Physical World" limitation of Desolid; the book indicates that a GM can insist on making people taking Desolid to mimic Invulnerability buy Affects Physical World on everything else or not as they see fit. Im betting most GMs dont, however Ill comprimise with a +1 Advantage to accomplish this half way between buying it off and not buying it off. Usually with Desolid you have to define a SFX that will affect the character, but we can skip that with our version because this form of Desolid is explicit rather than implicit; in other words ALL other SFX hurt the character normally EXCEPT the one the Invulnerability is bought against.
 

Cost Power END 60 Invulnerability: Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Buy off Cant affect Physical World (+1) (120 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Limited Type Of Attack (-1)  
Power Cost: 60
 
OK, so we define Invulnerability:
 

60 Invulnerability: Custom Power (60 Active Points) Constant, Self Only, 0 END Persistent [Notes: A character with this Power is immune to the direct effects of any Power directed against him with a Specific tightly defined SFX, whether that effect would be beneficial or not. This includes any of the characters own powers which are not Self Only or Sensory in nature; thus Instant powers such as Aid and Healing cannot be used on oneself unless specifically limited to Self Only if they are of a SFX covered by the Invulnerability.]  
 
This compares well to 75% Resitant Dmg Reduction for PD or ED, which is more generally broadbased, but doesnt stop all damage, and Invulnerability will protect vs some powers that dont fall under Dmg Reduction because they dont deal in pure damage.
 
 
 
A character with this power would be Invulnerable to a single tight SFX. Thus 'Mutant powers' may or may not be tight enough depending on how prevalent mutants are in a campaign setting; similarly 'Magic' is rather broad and will not be tight enough in a Magic-heavy campaign but would be fair in a campaign where Magic was rarer. See below for more on this. For example, the Marvel hero Collossus is Invulnerable to Magic (for all intents and purposes); Magic is fairly uncommon in the Marvel universe (it comes up, but is relatively Uncommon) so this is acceptibly tight in that setting.
 
An Invulnerable Character still takes Knockback normally and Invulnerability does not provide protection from Knockback damage unless the SFX of the Invulnerability covers Impact damage or Knockback damage (Invulnerability to Knockback Damage, 60 Active Points, Nonpersistant (-1/2), Activation 14- (-1/2), 30 real cost). Characters that want to represent a complete nullification of effects by a SFX to include not being affected by Knockback should buy Knockback Resistance Linked to thier Invulnerability.
 
 
 
A few Modifiers might be specifically appropriate to Invulnerable.

Scope: The broadness of the SFX defined should have an effect on the cost of the power. A reasonably tight single SFX should represent a SFX that approximately 10-15% of the potential opposition possess within the campaign as whole. Thus, SFX: Heat/Fire, SFX: Radiation, SFX: Magnetism are all tight single SFX in most supers campaigns but SFX: Mental or SFX: Mutant Powers are usually not as they cover a broader range of powers/abilites unless mutants or mental powers are abnormally scarce. Similarly Invulnerability to "My Brothers Mutant Powers" is much more specific and should be less expensive. To affect a broader or more narrow SFX use the following chart:
 

Scope Modifier Vs. a tight SFX and a single specific Individual with that SFX -2 Vs. a tight SFX and a Small Group (family, fellow test subjects) with that SFX -1 1/2 Vs. a broad SFX and a single specific Individual with that SFX -1 1/2 Vs. a broad SFX and a Small Group (family, fellow test subjects) with that SFX -1 Vs. a tight SFX and a Group (race of people or a large sub-race) with that SFX -1 Vs. a broad SFX and a Group (race of people or a large sub-race) with that SFX -1/2 broad SFX (appoximately 25% prevalent) +1/2 very broad SFX (appoximately 50% prevalent) +1 extremely broad SFX (appoximately 75% prevalent) +1 1/2 encompassingly broad SFX (appoximately 100% prevalent) +2  
 
For example, SFX:"Blunt" or "Impact" (however you want to phrase it) would be a SFX that stops, among other things (including Knockback and falling damage), STR based damage; practically EVERYTHING can do this type of damage in HEROs, so this is an Encompassingly Broad SFX (+2) and costs 180 points. {Off hand, that seems fair to me for the magnitude of such a power.}
 
 
However, SFX:"Slashing/Piercing" or "Edged" (again, semantic of choice) damage is a tighter SFX; maybe 50% to 75% of the opposition will have a piercing/slashing weapon (including projectile weapons). In most supers, with an emphasis on non-lethal I would go with 50%, but in a Fantasy or Dark Champs setting 75%. Thus this would cost 120 to 150 points depending on setting.
 
Thus, in a normal supers campaign with more non-lethal attacks, it would cost 300 points to be Invulnerable to Blunt and Edged Damage which is pretty encompassing. Points wise it is equivalent to 100 PD Hardened x4 Armor.
 
SFX:"All Energy" is similar to "Edged", but reversed. In most supers campaigns many enemies will have Energy attacks, whereas in Fantasy or Dark Champs, etc they will be less prevalent; therefore 75% in supers, 50% in more realistic settings where EBs and RKAs vs ED are less common. Thus this Invulnerability would cost 150 points in a Champs game.
 
To be Mr. Invulnerable with no offsetting Limitations would therefore cost 450 points in most Champsion games, granting across the board protection from Physical and Energy attacks regardless of source. If that character applied even a single Limitation such as Visible to all 3 forms of Invulnerable detailed above, it would cost 360 points, and when combined with Nonpersistent (-1/2) comes in at 257 points, leaving almost 100 points for Strength Linked to Invulnerable and sundry other abilities in a 350 point starting game.
 
 
SFX: All Superhuman Powers (ie anything bought as a non-FOCI/item based superhuman ability built using the Powers rules) is obviously a +2 Scope. However, it is important to note that Invulnerability only protects against affects that apply effect or damage directly, and not the secondary benefits of such powers. Thus an opponent with Density Increase or Strength bought as a Power has great strength, and when striking with strength damage would still affect a character with this type of Invulnerability. So for example, Collossus's strength-based strike, Wolverine's Claws (bought as SFX: metal claws, not SFX: mutant power), and Cyclops shooting a tree branch overhead to fall upon such a character would all do damage as normal, but all direct Power Attacks such as Storm's lightning Bolts, Psylockes Psi-blade, or Leech's Power Suppress would fail to affect a character with this Encompassing SFX Invulnerability. As a secondary example, someone with Invulnerability to all Mutant Powers (depending on campaign, ususally either Very Broad, 120 pts or Broad, 90 pts) in the same situation would also be immune to Storm, Psylocke, and Leech since all of those characters are using Mutant Powers, but would not be safe from the Human Torch's Nova Blast because that does not have a Mutant Power SFX; the character with the Invulnerability to all Superhuman Powers would be completely safe from it.
 

Hulled: If a Character or Vehicle's Invulnerability stems from a protective outer skin or outer layer and thier insides do not benefit from any sort of Invulnerability, having only any normal defences, then that is roughly equivalent to a mild form of Restrainable and is worth a -1/4 Limitation. Any attack, including some Conforming AoEs (such as gas clouds and similar), some Change Environments, and some Indirects which can circumvent the Invulnerable Hull are applied normally, ignoring the Invulnerability. Further, some circumstances may circumvent the Invulnerability for all attacks outright, for example an Invulnerable Hulled Vehicle with an open door would lose the benefit of its Invulnerability to an attack that was able to exploit such an opening, typically with a -2 to hit or with a Called Shot if using Hit Locations. Finally, opponents that have successfully Grabbed an Invulnerable character or Vehicle may strike at openings in the Hull with the usual penalties for Grabbing while keeping a hand free if they can reasonably reach those openings. For most characters, as opposed to Vehicles, openings in thier 'Hull' would include thier eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth, and other bodily orifices at the GMs discretion.

Weakness Some Invulnerable Characters have a specific exclusion clause to thier Invulnerability. For some, it is a literal location on thier body (an Achille's Heel), for others its a specific material (such as Baldur and Mistletoe or Superman and Kryptonite), and for still others its more abstracted. If a character has a single location on thier body that is not protected by thier Invulnerability, this can be best represented by using a process similar to the Focus rules. The spot may be either Obvious or Inobvious, and either Accessible or Inaccessible. It is usually appropriate to also take either a Vulnerability or Susceptibility (or both) revolving around the Weakness to depict a truly serious frailty.
 
An Inobvious Inaccessible Weakness is a -0 Limitation; it represents a Weakness which is neither apparent or exploitable in combat and is not limiting enough to gain points from. Such a Weakness basically serves as a flavorful character hook or as an enabler for a larger concept; for example a character with such a Weakness may take a Physical Limitation that occurs if the Weakness is exploited as Infrequent or something similar.
 
An Obvious Inaccessible Weakness is worth -1/4; it represents a part of the characters body that is noticably unprotected or
vulnerable, such as thier eyes perhaps, but which is generally difficult or impossible to target in combat; suprise attacks or attacking the character while they are incapacitated will do the job; this form of Weakness can be used to represent a character that must concentrate to maintain thier Invulnerability, like Captain Britain for example, and when caught by suprise or incapacitated are as vulnerable as anyone else (aside from any other defenses they may have).
 
An Inobvious Accessible weakness is worth -1/2; it represents a Weakness which is not obvious or apparent but which can be targeted in combat to circumvent the Invulnerability. There are two basic types of Inobvious Accessible Weaknesses, Locations and Materials. Location Weaknesses are a place on the body of a character which is not protected by the Invulnerability; an opponent that knows about the locations may take a -2 OCV on attack rolls if not using Hit Locations, or may make a called shot if using Hit Locations to target this area and if successful will completely bypass the characters Invulnerability. Material Weaknesses represent an Invulnerability which does not affect a specific type of material such as alluminum, silver, or wood; a weapon constructed of that material (even a makeshift weapon) will always circumvent the Invulnerability. Superman's weakness to Kryptonite or the Norse god Baldur's weakness to mistletoe are examples of this type of Weakness (Material), as is the classic Achille's Heel (location).
 
 
An Obvious Accessible Weakness is worth -1; it represents a weakness which is both clearly identifiable and exploitable in combat. By taking a -2 OCV to thier attack rolls or by making a called shot if using Hit Locations, opponents can circumvent the characters Invulnerability entirely. Such a weakness is rare, but examples include the classic Power Suit\Super Body Armor without a Helmet or face mask.

Some existing Modifiers might behave in interesting ways with this power. Some of them are listed below:
 
Affects Desolidified: Though derived from Desolid, Invulnerability is now a seperate power and is not affected by powers with this Advantage.
 
Area of Effect: Normally this has no bearing on Invulnerability, but Areas of Effect that are bought Conforming do have an effect on Hulled Invulnerability. A Conforming attack treats a Hull as a wall, but may at the GMs discretion seep into any breaches or openings in a Hull circumventing the Invulnerability and having its normal (or a reduced) effect. For a character with a Hulled Invulnerability, this might indicate a poison gas or a fire ball which gets into his respiratory system even though his skin is unharmed.
 
Armor Piercing: AP has no effect vs a character Invulnerable to the SFX of the AP attack.
 
AVLD: AVLD has no effect vs a character Invulnerable to the SFX of the AVLD attack. Invulnerable is not a 'Defense' per se and thus cannot be defined as the targeted Defense of an AVLD attack.
 
BOECV: If the Invulnerability applies to the SFX of the BOECV attack, then the BOECV attack has not effect.
 
Inherent: Invulnerability can be bought Inherent.
 
Indirect: Normally Inderect is immaterial to Invulnerability, but can interact with Invulnerability if the Hulled Limitation is taken with Invulnerability. If an Indirect Attack is bought in such a way to circumvent a targets 'outer layer', or which indicate a particularly accurate form of attack which is 'guided' then as circumstances indicate Indirect of this sort will allow the circumvention of Hulled Invulnerability. Often the Invulnerable character can take steps to minimize this flaw by closing any breaches in thier Hull but at the GMs discretion a suitable Indirect attack may continue to exploit this weakness by taking an appropriate penalty to thier attack roll ranging from -2 OCV up even if the Invulnerable character is attempting to prevent it.
 
NND: NND has no effect vs a character Invulnerable to the SFX of the NND attack. Invulnerable is not a 'Normal Defense' per se and thus is not circumvented by an NND attack if the SFX of the NND Attack is covered by the SFX of the Invulnerability.
 
Penetrating: Penetrating has no effect vs a character Invulnerable to the SFX of the Penetrating attack.
 
Personal Immunity: This Advantage may be taken on Invulnerability, although it is a limited use case. This would allow a character to affect themselves with a targeted beneficial effect if the SFX of the Invulnerability would normally prevent it. The primary use for this would be if a character had an Aid or Healing Power not bought Self Only which had a SFX covered by thier own Invulnerability.
 
Usable On Others: This can be applied normally to Invulnerability. However, some duration or other means of ending the effect should be defined as normal for a 0 END Constant Power.
 
Variable Special Effects: At the GMs discretion, this Advantage may be allowed to represent an Invulnerability which may be 'fine tuned'. However, this could be very powerful and should be considered a STOP sign ability.
 
 
 
Ablative: This is not appropriate to Invulnerability; a better way to represent an "Ablative" Invulnerability is using either a Burnout Activation or Charges.
 
 
Activation: Activation Rolls are appropriate to Invulnerability, particularly with either the Jammed or Burnout rules. Burnout particularly could be used to model an "Ablative" coating.
 
Charges: In general, since Invulnerable is already a 0 END Constant power, Charges are inefficient. However, they can be taken with Invulnerable if desired, and is another method that can be used to represent an 'Ablative' coating or even a '9 Lives' effect. However, the Fuel option should not be allowed, or at least treated as a Yield sign power. Boostable Charges have no relevance to Invulnerability.
 
 
Nonpersistant: This can be taken with Invulnerability, and can also be combined with Concentration, Costs Endurance only to ACtivate, Increased Endurance, and Extra Time to represent a kind of Invulnerability that takes some effort to 'turn on', and when combined with Visible may indicate some kind of Armorskin or a metamorphosis into some more durable form.
 
FOCI: Foci works normally with Invulnerability unless the Weakness modifier is also taken on Invulnerability. A GM should carely examine an Invulnerability with both FOCI and Weakness to ensure that they are 2 seperate issues and not a 'double dip'. Typically a FOCI will benefit from whatever Invulnerabilities it grants. Thus an Amulet of Fire Prevention which grants Invulnerability to Fire would itself be immune to fire damage. This is open to GM's interpretation however, particularly in the case of a Fragile FOCI.
 
Gradual Effect: This is not appropriate for Invulnerability.
 
OIHID: This Limitation is appropriate to Invulnerable, but see Visible below and Nonpersistent above.
 
Restrainable: This is not normally appropriate to Invulnerability; see Weakness instead.
 
 
Visible: Much like Armor, Visible Invulnerability takes the form of some outward indication that the target is particularly resistant to harm. Unlike Armor, the visual appearance should give a very strong clue of the appropriate types of damage the Invulnerable character is resistant to. Thus someone with Visible Invulnerability to fire may have red skin and constantly flaming hair as a SFX. Someone with a Visible Invulnerable to Mental may have an effect apparent to any with Mental Awareness such as a specific aura or a constant mental static surrounding them. The net effect is anyone possessing a power of the SFX that the Invulnerable character is protected from should be able to 'guess' thier Invulnerability by making an Intelligence check, PER Roll, Power Skill check, or even automatically as the GM decides before deciding to attack them.

How would y'all (Herodom Assembled) produce this effect: Numbing. I want to be able to numb the skin with a touch (not all of it, just the area touched), and with repeated contact numb the muscles. Now for the muscle numbing, I plan to use an Entangle, but the skin numbing has some interesting effects I want. With a touch, I can take the pain from an injury -- not heal it, just make it not hurt.
 
So, to sum up:

remove pain with a touch
remove all sensation from an "area" (probably using Hit Locations or some such)
paralyse muscles (again, mostly focusing on limbs and such)

How do you think I should do it?