Tywyll

I think a lot depends on how one interprets "that was always the rule".  Back when 2e was released, there was an article where the designers referred to spreading an energy blast as a section "lost when Magneto attacked our disks".  That is, we intended to include it, so that was how the game was intended to work, but we did not include it, so it was not the official rules.
 
Regardless, being able to use multiple Attack Mechanics together as a single Attack Action (Combined Attack) makes sense to me.  Adding Linked, which reduced the cost of certain Attack Mechanics if choice of when to use them was reduced then makes logical sense (where "Linked lets you do this when you otherwise could not" does not make as much sense). 
 
There has always been a substantial cost discount available if you restricted the ability to use multiple powers at the same time - the Multipower.  What is the benefit of paying for two or more attacks outside a Multipower, rather than using Fixed slots in a Multipower, if Combined Attacks cannot be used?  For that matter, what is the benefit of putting those Attack Powers in Flexible slots, instead of Fixed slots, if that does not allow you to mix & match in a Combined Attack?
 
Whether the Combined Attack was the rule since 1e or still was not allowed in 6e, to me it is a logical rule which provides balance between the costs of different approaches to purchasing multiple attack powers.

I'm going to have to disagree. 
 
My group consists of two types of people. 
Half the group will take the shortest and most direct route in chargen.  So when the GM said "Campaign standard is a CV of 7", they responded by putting their DEX at 20 since that's the simplest way to get CV 7. 
The other half pokes at numbers and thinks about things.  So when the GM said "Campaign standard is a CV of 7", they responded by saying "Well I can get +1 CV via 3 DEX costing 9 points but -3 for the SPD rebate so +1 CV for 6 points.  Or I could buy CSLs for how much?  No thanks!" and put their DEX at 20. 
So in our first fight, we had one hero above 20, the mooks and a villain in the teens, and a six-way initiative tie at DEX 20. 
 
So my experience is that CV keying off DEX makes variation in DEX mostly go away.  Every other characteristic, my group has wonderful spreads going up and down the range.  But DEX is mostly a pile of 20s.  And I don't like that. 

I would do away with the generic rule set as presented. Tie the system into properties. Looking at the past, I'd rather see a Champions book marketed akin to 4e BBB, then have a fantasy book that ties in vague setting, as well as a sci-fi book, a new Justice Inc., Danger International, etc. The mechanics would be compatible with one another, but like the older editions, there may be some genre rules that are specific to that rulebook.  I believe this might make the game more attractive, particularly with some nice art and a solid design specific to that book. 
 
In addition, I would get rid of the "you can build everything" mentality. Do we really need to build a cellphone to use it? Couldn't it just provide a bonus and a radio without breaking down every point? 

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at but my app is designed to work with HERO Designer and not step on either Hero Designer or Hero Combat Manager's toes.  I develop the app for free and give it away to a marginalized gaming community as a way of giving back.

If you recall, though, it wasn't all.  The Champions 1st-3rd edition corebooks were incomplete, even for Champions.  The Champions II and Champions III supplements added stuff: vehicles, bases, computers/AI, danger rooms, agents; additional Combat Maneuvers, Skills, Powers, Disadvantages.  For instance: Images (Light Illusions), Absorption, Reflection, Transform, Suppress (Neutralization), Damage Reduction, Multiform, Shapeshift, Variable Power Pools; Accidental Change, Dependency; Dive For Cover, Pulling your Punch, Roll With Punch, Coordinating Attacks; all of those appeared in the supplements, and not in any of the 1st-3rd ed core rules.  The corebooks had 12 Skills; Champions II added a bunch in from Espionage!, but not all of them, and the other standalone games had their own lists.  The standalone games used Hit Locations, Impairing/Disabling, advanced Bleeding, advanced firearms rules and lists (the Champions corebooks had things like "Light Pistol: 1d6 RKA, 6 shots, OAF; Heavy Pistol: 2d6 RKA, 8 shots, OAF).  
 
4th edition was the first one that contained all of the rules.  

And while we are at it, let's rerelease the earlier versions of Hero Software (assuming licenses are still owned) so that people who buy these pdf products or have the old physical ones can get tech support if they want it.
 
I want the BBB hero maker software. Why isn't that available?

Look like @JmOz is ahead of the curve for pre-gens... https://jawedel01.wixsite.com/kountry-gaming/copy-of-hero-games
 
Perhaps these could be used?

[lost my post due to a Windows Update]
Okay,  I see three things here:
 
The complete Series was not a bad approach, but was sub-optimal due to bad organization and layout. As it is it's focused, but it's not a good  product for a beginner to Hero. There is little to no chance of there being any ability to change the published rules as is, but there may be a chance to repackage the "Complete" series as re-organized as a PDF maybe (with permission). A reorganized product might be easier for beginners, but it is a large sandwich to swallow. What this re-organization would look like would have to be discussed as I have no clue what that would look like. organization is not my strong suit. This produce might be useful to someone new to Hero, but a more experienced GM.
 
There is a new product from WOTC. It's entitled Essentials Kit. It is a boxed product that contains  a 64 page rule book with ruled to cover characters from levels 1 - 6, Dragon of Icespire Peak an introductory adventure, Double Sided poster map, Dungeon Master's Screen, 6 blank Character sheets, 11 polyhedral Dice, 81 cards describing Magic items, sidekicks and more. The produce comes in a fairly substantial box and I bought it retail for $24.00 US. (the reason I bought it, was that my Nephew wants to learn how to play D&D< and this is a way to do it, without tossing him into the deep end by buying him a PHB).  The product is definitely aimed at Beginners, and includes an abbreviated rules set, but otherwise is compatible with the current 5e rules. Boxes are still a thing and work well for introductory products. Hero at the current time does not have the finances to attempt this.  But the product format is still worth looking at for design and educational purposes.
 
The third thing. I was looking at Fantasy Hero Battle Grounds for Fifth Edition FH.  It's a book of  adventures,  with a fair amount of details. They are all loosely linked with some background  to make them into a whole, short campaign.  Why wasn't this idea pushed further? (probably because it didn't sell). Partly I think it should have had a more evocative title, like "Rising of the Forgotten God". But as written is looks and feels pretty solid. The only thing missing would be a set of  pre-generated adventurers, to make this something like an introductory product.  So it has been done before. If we must, it could be easily ported over to 6th Edition, but it will still need some pre-generated characters.  I could not tell from my first pass if this product was at all tied in with any other existing Hero FH Background, but it could be, I suppose.

But I think some sort of combination of What WOTC hass done, What Hero has done in the past, and what is economically feasible is what we should aim for , in attracting new talent. Now we can't have a box, or dice, or probably multiple books, but a very slimmed down, basic set of the 6e rules might work,  with an included Adventure and pre-generated characters.  All examples using those characters names and such. Maybe even splitting things out further into a GM's book, and a player's book, ala D&D, to keep the amount of effort on the new player minimal?  something like  Fantasy Hero Primer, but with more pre-generateds would work as the player manual.
https://www.herogames.com/files/file/367-fantasy-hero-primer/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I think what you are looking for is in Hero System Martial Arts.  Page 247 explains the different NNDs in detail.  The numerical designations indicate what defense stops the NND.  Using the examples you sited: NND1 is stopped by Rigid Resistant PD on vital areas, NND2 is stopped by Rigid Resistant PD on the neck or not having to breather, NND3 is stopped by Rigid Resistant PD on a specific Hit Location.  That is the simplified version; that page has a lot more details.

I'm not saying (that people are saying) "subtraction is hard".  I'm saying "HERO has a bunch of math-stuff compared to other games, and some of that math-stuff is very unintuitive". 
 
How many more math-stuff, you ask?  Thrognar the Fighter should be simple, right?  Let's count the operations in hitting once and being hit once! 

D&D 5e:
Roll to-hit, adding your bonus to a d20.  Tell the GM your result.  (1 operation)
Roll and sum your 2d6 damage dice, add your bonus.  Tell the GM your result.  (2 operations, 3 total)
GM tells you the enemy's attack resul.  It hits your AC, ow!  (Technically another operation here, but people can do comparison so fast I'm ignoring it.  We're not computers, we don't have to do subtraction to tell which number's bigger.)
GM tells you a damage number.  Subtract it from your HP.  (1 operation, 4 total)
 
HERO:
Roll to-hit, subtracting the sum of 3d6 from your precomputed 11+OCV.  (3 operations, +1 if that handy precomputation wasn't done)
Roll your 3d6, sum it to get BODY.  Roll STUN multiplier and multiply by BODY to get STUN.  Tell the GM these numbers.  (3 operations, 6 total)
Subtract the END cost of your attack from your END.  (1 operation, 7 total)
GM tells you the enemy's attack result.  It hits your DCV, ow! 
GM tells you two damage numbers.  Subtract your rDEF from the BODY damage, then subtract the result from your BODY.  Subtract your DEF from the STUN damage, then subtract the result from your STUN.  (4 operations, 11 total)
 
Notice that HERO requires Thrognar's player to do roughly thrice the math and track thrice as many numbers (STUN, BODY, END).  There'd be even more math if Thrognar was using a Normal Attack or Knockback was in use. 
That means a new player has roughly thrice the learning to do and thrice the mental burden.  It doesn't matter that each individual step is trivial.  There's three times as many steps to do and remember! 
 
 
What math-stuff is unintuitive? 
A Knockback result of zero is unlike all other effect results of zero.  Zero anything else does nada.  Zero Knockback knocks you down.  It takes negative Knockback to have no effect. 
Advantages add in a straightforward manner.  A +1/2 Advantage increases the power's cost by 1/2 of the base cost.  But a Limitation doesn't behave that way.  A -1/2 Limitation doesn't decrease the power's cost by 1/2 of the base cost. 

I've never had people complain abut fractions or any other mathematical operation. 
 
What I've had people complain about is the number of different math-related things they have to keep track of. 
To-hit isn't just sum-and-tell. 
Three ways of counting damage.  At once! 
-1/4 doesn't mean 25% off. 
Get told three damage numbers, subtract different things from different ones, compare one to a threshold, remember that zero means "fall down" instead of "no effect" for another. 
Track three different "keep fighting" numbers, two of which go up as well as down and one of which goes down multiple times per turn. 
So on and so forth.  That's what I assume people who complain about math in HERO are complaining about. 

I posted this to some thread, but I can't remember, and it's probably locked.  This thread is active, and it's on topic, so I'm posting it here.  
 
Some time back, I created a third edition Champions Google Spreadsheet.  A couple of people besides myself have contributed (sadly, I'm not sure who).  The two things it most reliably does are generate a Characteristics block (including doing the math), and creating a Power writeup.  And, I've made some improvements.  You can provide alternate text for custom Advantages and Limitations.  
 
And it does in fact create a Power writeup!  Through the magic of a lot of nested parentheses.  You can have it generate something like this: 
 
 
Some of those Modifiers are not stock 3rd edition.  To create a custom, or rename an existing one, choose the appropriate Advantage or Limitation (e.g. "Limited Power 1/2").  In the Advantage Alt Text or Limitation Alt Text, type the name you want to give it, such as "Not Vs. Cabbage".  In the Advantage Parenthetical Text or Limitation Parenthetical Text, type something in here, like "cole slaw only".  
 
It will then insert into the Power writeup:  Not Vs. Cabbage (cole slaw only; -1/2)
 
Warning:  It's not bulletproof.  It has no modifier intelligence.  It expects you to know the amount and base cost; you have to select, for instance, Teleport from the list, and for Amount enter 5", and for Base Cost enter 10.  It will take it from there, though.  There are also occasional minor bugs in it; I'm chasing those down off and on.  And it doesn't generate a character sheet; you'll want to copy and paste whatever the finished text is that you want to pull out.  
 
If you use it, I recommend saving a copy to your own Google Drive, then saving a new copy every so often.  
 
Edit to add:  You can create a custom Power by selecting Custom, then overwriting the name with whatever you choose, and ignoring the warning that comes up.  

I've got the beginnings of a 3rd edition template for Hero Designer...
 
Creating a template to use the 3rd edition costs for Powers, Skills, and Disadvantages is the easy part.  
 
Regarding the differences in Reduced END Cost... It's theoretically possible to generate a 3rd edition legal Champions character using HD.  Doing so requires a little bit of hand-massaging of the character file.  When buying levels of Reduced END Cost on a Power, you need to do two things: in HD, manually add a cost multiplier to the Power, equal to 1 + 0.25 per level of reduced END, and then edit the character's XML file (after backing it up, of course) to manually set the Power's APPEREND attribute (HDDocs p. 45) in XML.  
 
You'd similarly (manually) apply cost multipliers to Enhanced Senses and Disadvantages, based on how many of them your character has.  
 
It's only partially complete, and I may have to start it over again.  If anyone is interested in seeing it... it may be a week or so before I can dig it up.  I wouldn't mind help with it, also. 

A lot of good suggestions in this thread - to me, it comes down to the question of: In your game, since elves don't need a skill roll for regular spells, should they require a Skill in order to perform cantrips? If your answer is no, then just consider it a kind of custom Talent or Perk with a cost that seems appropriate to the level of actual utility you anticipate allowing it to have (3 pts, 5 pts, etc.).  If your answer is yes, elven cantrips should require a Skill, then just go with Power Skill - Chris Goodwin in particular pointed out some other possible applications of it beyond "power stunt" cantrips.

I think in this case it actually works better (or just as well) because it represents how much time/effort the character has spent to learn to use the natural magical ability. Maybe make the skill an "Everyman" skill for all Elves, with maybe base roll 8- or 9-, then those who have practiced magic a lot raise it up, those who don't, don't raise it up very much. 
 
For example, there are lots of things all humans can do in real life (swim, run, deduce, etc...) but only if people spend time practicing and learning and training with those abilities that everyone has, do they become super good at them and better then other people who can do the same thing, just not as well. Or as another example, everyone knows their native language (english in the usa) but some people actually further study it in university or read a lot, etc... and those people have a way bigger vocabulary, really know all the syntax and grammar rules, etc...  that can be like magic in your game. Everyone "knows it" but some people who have really practiced and studied it know little things and tricks that regular people might not know about. 

You are correct. I am not saying the 6E way is wrong. I just prefer the aesthetic of the previous build.
 
I prefer:
Transfer: Transfer END 4d6 (60 Active Points) Real Cost: 60 CP 
 
over
Transfer: Drain END 4d6 (40 Active Points); Unified
Power (-.) (total cost: 32 CP) plus Aid END 4d6 (standard effect:
same roll as Drain dice), Trigger (when character uses Drain,
activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger immediately automatically
resets; +1) (48 Active Points); Only Aid Self (-1), Linked (-.),
Unified Power (-.). Real Cost: 51 CP
 
and
Instant Change: Switch one set of clothes for another. Real Cost: 3 CP
 
over
Instant Change: Cosmetic Transform 1d6 (standard
effect: switch one set of clothes for another), Trigger (changing
clothing is a Zero Phase Action, Trigger automatically resets;
+.) (5 Active Points); Limited Target (the character’s current
clothing; -.). Real Cost: 3 CP
 
 

I've never played with those rules but I wish it had remained that way instead of the way it is now. 

Not sure about form you can fill out but if you have Hero Designer there is an export for minions
 

{shrug} If you aren't concerned about the potential opportunity for game imbalance, let people buy PSL's vs Multiple Attack penalties. Worst case scenario, if the character ends up being too good at killing off multiple targets and is sucking the challenge out of encounters, just add more goons to soak up their attacks. 

Since Con doesn't contribute to figured characteristics in 6e and I rarely see a Con roll in game, I'd call it a 0 or at most -1/4. Honestly I probably wouldn't allow it. 
 
Like what about: Body, Only to absorb damage as a limitation? Anything? I wouldn't give it anything. I kinda feel like this is the same. 

I'm surprised no one said Squirrel Girl. I mean, she already beat him by herself... 

 

Since Con doesn't contribute to figured characteristics in 6e and I rarely see a Con roll in game, I'd call it a 0 or at most -1/4. Honestly I probably wouldn't allow it. 
 
Like what about: Body, Only to absorb damage as a limitation? Anything? I wouldn't give it anything. I kinda feel like this is the same. 

Penalty skill levels in 6th were much more tightly defined.  This would come into the Offensive Penalty Skill levels, which would apply to things that reduce OCV.  However, these were  grouped into Range skill levels (to offset range penalties), Targeting skill levels (to offset hit location penalties) and Throwing skill levels (to offset unbalanced object penalties).  It is quite explicit that Penalty Skill Levels should not be used to offset the penalties imposed for using manoeuvres.
 
Costs are 1pt/level with any single attack, 2pts/level with three attacks(*) or a tight group, 3pts/level with all attacks.
 
 
Doc
 
* it says manoeuvres rather than attacks in my rulebook but I am presuming that is a typo given the explicit text in the book...

Hi everyone, new to this forum. Coming back to Hero after a long break. Everytime I reread the rules, I always have this WT... moment when I get to the multiple-power attack/ combined attack. I've previously been using 5th edition and comparing it to 6th edition in hope it can provide clarifications.
 

Pretty much the conclusion I came to. The mention of off hand penalty not applying to combined attack really puzzled me. This time it clicked in my head when I got to read the Off Hand section (6E2, p. 49).

"This optional rule is usually used only in Heroic campaigns or other games where characters buy Weapon Familiarity and similar Skills instead of paying Characters Points for their weapons and equipment."
 
 

There is a mention of this in 5th ed R , but this is for multiple-power attacks (combined attack) (p. 358). I didn't find mention of it in 6th ed. 6th ed also exclude the combination of Combat/Martial Maneuvers.

In 5th , it is also mentioned :

" A Character cannot use the same power, ability, or weapon to attack more than once per Phase with a multiple-power attack - that requires two (or more) distinct attacks."
(5th ed R, p.359)

This is a strong indication, that multiple-power attack (combined attack) cannot be used in conjunction with rapid fire, sweep... in 5th ed. Is there any indication in 6th?

In the end, I think it all depend on the type of game the GM wants to run, heroic or superheroic, and what is allowed. If the players are properly briefed and can equally take advantage if it, it shouldn't be a balance issue.

But yes, better guidelines would help. Especially in heroic genre where weapons are bought with cash but supernatural abilities are payed with points.

Cheers.

Phil's suggestion is pretty close to how I do High Fantasy.  Not exact, of course: we're two different people and we've never played together, after all.
 
I do "cantrips" both of two different ways:
 
if it's a lesser variation on something you can already do (as in Phil's suggestion above), then you can just _do_ it.  Seriously.  No roll.  No check.  You can just _do_ it.    The umbrella question that started this thread off?  If you have Force Field, Force Wall, or even Telekinesis, fine: you can just _do_ it.
 
Now before going further, let me put in a couple of things:
 
That cantrip _stops_ the moment you focus the power from which it's derived to a greater use.  Using Lothai's Armor of Lighted Aether as a rain shield for your coiffure?  Go for it.  You have a sparkling little dome of twinkling lights floating just above you...   bandits leap out and you cast great Lothai's wondrous spell upon your swashbuckling companion?  Fine: he's protected by the shimmering sparkles.  You're getting wet, though.
 
If it's something with potential to really affect the game or the plot (again, see Phil's example of telekinesis)?  Want a cantrip that grants 1 pt of telekinesis?  Sure, it's a nifty thing to be able to float your spell book in front of you as you study, or have your clothes put itself upon you when you've finished bathing and step out of the river, _but_...   This particular cantrip-- let's call it Astral Servitor (because I _do_, in fact, call it Astral Servitor) can also be used to fetch the keys from the hook on the wall to you in your jail cell, or to pull a curious lever while you remain a safe distance away....), well that's going to cost you a point.
 
That's the thing: a "cantrip" in my High Fantasy is essentially one point of a power or skill (six or less), or talent.  A seriously bare-minimum.  Want something bigger, learn it as a spell.
 
Why?
 
because I don't really read fantasy fiction (I know; it's not a secret, but most of it irritates the Hell out of me.  I enjoy a lot of Low Fantasy, though, and I _adored_ Turtledove's The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump so much that I was _mortified_ to find out just how awful most Urban Fantasy is....    ), with only a few exceptions, most fantasy RPGs are designed to highlight their lack of originality and tend to just revisit Tolkienisms or re-invent D&D....
 
The upshot of this?
 
I have absolutely _no_ solid grasp of what a "cantrip" is supposed to be.  Many, many years ago-- at some point before there actually was a Fantasy Hero, we tried some fantasy in Champions, and it wasn't half bad.  Then one day while writing up the new spell one of the players had been working on creating (i.e., he'd been "studying" it and now had enough EP to buy it), he asked me quite boldly how many cantrips he could have bought instead.
 
I had no clue what he was talking about.
 
Not wanting to short him, I got up, found a dictionary, and discovered that it was, to paraphrase, a small and not-very-powerful magic spell.
 
And that's pretty much how I've played it since: insignificant stuff: if you can derive it from something you have, then you have it, period.  Call it a perk of not being able to swing a sword.
 
If you can, buy a point of it.  Anything more than that is not a cantrip.  Anything that has good potential of being plot-effective?  costs a point.
 
 
 
I'm going to stop before I repeat myself again.
 
 
have a good evening.