RDU Neil

I brought this discussion up specifically with the group at last night's game. Immediately the players said, "Oh man... that's easily a Blue Chit use of Danger Sense!" which referred to my chit rules... a version of luck that allows limited expenditure each game that can modify a power use (do a power stunt), add plot points, etc.
 
It really does help when you have players who 'get it' and are looking to create a fun, dramatic game/story... and understand the rules are in service of that end, not in demonstrating some powergaming/show-off/competitive need.

I brought this discussion up specifically with the group at last night's game. Immediately the players said, "Oh man... that's easily a Blue Chit use of Danger Sense!" which referred to my chit rules... a version of luck that allows limited expenditure each game that can modify a power use (do a power stunt), add plot points, etc.
 
It really does help when you have players who 'get it' and are looking to create a fun, dramatic game/story... and understand the rules are in service of that end, not in demonstrating some powergaming/show-off/competitive need.

Yeah  look, "can't simulate existing game constructs with other powers" is all well and good. But aren't all the powers existing game constructs? In which case what is simulating what?  Seriously, which one is "simulating" which one: Transform to Dead Person or Killing Attack vs. Power Defense? Do we need to know which one comes first? Is there some sort of list that prioritises them?
 
Not that I'm aware of.
 
The problem with danger sense is not that it crosses a line into simulating other powers, it's that it doesn't simulate other powers in a clear enough way, thereby leading to arguments during a game. Me, I don't want that at my game table. I already have enough trouble wrangling (some) players into playing within a set of assumptions in which I am happy to run a game. I don't need this s#!t too.
 
As an aside: not allowing players  to use their super powers to do something improbable but thematically fitting is probably a bad GMing style, especially for the supers genre.
 

Actually a good example of this in my bi-weekly game last night. Three PCs infiltrated the penthouse of a Milanese mob boss, got into a shoot out with some hired killers... named bad guys. One of the killers was surprised, out of combat, by a PC, who hit with 2 9mm rounds, one in his chest one through his arm... no Combat Luck as it doesn't apply when surprised out of combat. Bad guy was badly wounded but alive, but CON Stunned, so the follow up two shots to the head were, again, no Combat Luck applied (character incapacitated, even temporarily) and bad guy is gone, dropped without getting a chance to act.

In another part of the Penthouse, another bad guy made his Danger Sense roll and was prepared... started blowing holes through the walls with a .460 S&W. None of the characters had body armor, but all named characters have 1 level of Combat Luck. In this fight, the bad guy got one good look at a PC (lots of dodging down hallways, grenades going off, blowing through cheap interior walls going on... took a while for the fight to get face-to-face)... and hit... it was a leg shot, rolled badly... so with CL and 1/2 damage for hit location it ended up being a 2 body damage "nick" rather than blowing the limb off. Later, when the combat got in close, a PC got his 9mm close up and headshotted the big (very big) bad guy, but he had CL, so instead of likely dead and at least CON stunned, it was a bloody crease across the scalp and not enough to CON stun.

This fight was one of the most cinematic and fun fights, and it worked because we had nominally "unarmored" characters simply not going down with the first lucky hit. Nobody "wanted" to get hit and a decent roll to a dangerous hit location would still be really bad, but the difference in CL vs. non-CL is huge in actual play.

Actually a good example of this in my bi-weekly game last night. Three PCs infiltrated the penthouse of a Milanese mob boss, got into a shoot out with some hired killers... named bad guys. One of the killers was surprised, out of combat, by a PC, who hit with 2 9mm rounds, one in his chest one through his arm... no Combat Luck as it doesn't apply when surprised out of combat. Bad guy was badly wounded but alive, but CON Stunned, so the follow up two shots to the head were, again, no Combat Luck applied (character incapacitated, even temporarily) and bad guy is gone, dropped without getting a chance to act.

In another part of the Penthouse, another bad guy made his Danger Sense roll and was prepared... started blowing holes through the walls with a .460 S&W. None of the characters had body armor, but all named characters have 1 level of Combat Luck. In this fight, the bad guy got one good look at a PC (lots of dodging down hallways, grenades going off, blowing through cheap interior walls going on... took a while for the fight to get face-to-face)... and hit... it was a leg shot, rolled badly... so with CL and 1/2 damage for hit location it ended up being a 2 body damage "nick" rather than blowing the limb off. Later, when the combat got in close, a PC got his 9mm close up and headshotted the big (very big) bad guy, but he had CL, so instead of likely dead and at least CON stunned, it was a bloody crease across the scalp and not enough to CON stun.

This fight was one of the most cinematic and fun fights, and it worked because we had nominally "unarmored" characters simply not going down with the first lucky hit. Nobody "wanted" to get hit and a decent roll to a dangerous hit location would still be really bad, but the difference in CL vs. non-CL is huge in actual play.

One of the stars of Captain Marvel did a 53 minute live stream and among other things, showed off how she did her own stunts.
 
 

X2 at the time was good. It has clearly been outclassed by Marvel movies, since then. First Class as well. The problem is that they are still stuck in the old school "comic book movie" formula, and haven't grown as the genre and audience have evolved. 

Logan was great because a) it wasn't an ensemble, and b) it DID evolve and was a powerful finale that did away with "I pose with the hand clenched while stuff floats around me" theatrics, and presented a more brutal, personal movie. 
 
If nothing else, the X-Men need to do away with the "every demonstration of my power is a grand pose with stuff swirling around for five minutes while I grimace!" type of thing... because what the best Marvel movies do is show super powers being used quickly, effectively and casually to make them seem really super. Quick, fluid, dynamic, clever uses of powers... not clenched and constipated. 
 
(Like one of the things I hate is the use of Quicksilver, who clearly can move so fast that none of the other characters matter, but only gets his "one scene" when he decides to turn on his power and go. The Avengers II version was a much better portrayal of superspeed at a balanced level. The X-Men Quicksilver gets these "humorous" scenes of superspeed that are visually interesting and such, but in the context of the plot and story are utterly ridiculous. "Hey, this guy is so fast he does everything before anyone can blink... but we'll leave him behind because he had his one scene and if he really used his powers, the rest of the movie wouldn't work."
 
In the comics, the X-Men were the original team of combatants who worked together to have the clever, combined use of abilities where the sum was greater than the parts, and they have never portrayed this in the movies... while every fight scene in every Marvel movie is way better. 

I wish I cared, but I just don't. No matter what they do with sfx, they still seem stuck in 1980s dialogue and soap opera drama that, yes, back then was definitive of the X-Men, but is dated and tedious, now.

I'm that too.

I'm a social democrat, which seems to terrify a lot of people. 



 

Don't feel too bad, as a fiscal conservative, I was required to buy Hunted: U.S. Congress (ALL of Congress)
 
 

I'm that too.

I'm a social democrat, which seems to terrify a lot of people. 



 

I'm a social democrat, which seems to terrify a lot of people. 



 

Good god, man, this is a family forum! Watch your tongue!
 
 
 

I'm a social democrat, which seems to terrify a lot of people. 



 

But selling back the Common sense group is enough for a 15- in PS: Internet Arguer AND  a 15- in KS Internet Arguments.  Come on man, leverage those points. 

A lonely, misunderstood relic of a bygone era, who just doesn't look good on film: The Loch Ness Monster.
 
 

I prefer to stay within my own lair, rarely leaving or interacting with the outside world, endlessly indulging my own obsessions.  I also hate it when intruders disturb my seclusion. 
 
I am clearly a Lich.

Of course, the monster I'd most like to be is a dragon.  However, I'm not really greedy and all dragons are greedy.  
 
So, I'm somewhat slow and methodical, I stay confined to a set area, I'm generally open and honest which leads to a lot of transparency in my life, the people closest to me often say I'm amazingly silent and sneaky for my size, and I've collected a rather large, odd assortment of weapons throughout my life.  The monster I'm probably closest to is: 
 
Gelatinous Cube

You've reminded me of our very earliest games, where none of us really had a clue what was what, but we wanted to jump in and play this game!  So we all made characters (wildly bizarre, disparate, mis-matched characters who, without the most extreme of GM intervention, would make a truly ineffective team (you know: a "team" of lone-wolf types   )  None of us had considered making up for each other's shortcomings-- to the point where we most often shared shortcomings:  "Mute?!  Dude, that sounds like an _awesome_ idea!  Hey, Jim!  My guys mute, too!"  (shameful, but a true story    ))
 
Short version:  we were _incapable_ of keeping _in sight_ of each other, let alone pace, with out-of-combat movement.  More than one character's "movement power" was a bus pass the GM tossed at him.  Those first three or four adventures (we were adamant that we could make these characters work!  ) more often than not were a series of cut scenes:  Okay, so you agree to meet at X in twenty minutes and continue the pursuit.   or: Your the first one here.  You scan the scene, looking for traces of where the villain may have gone.  After speaking with eye-witnesses and posing for the crowd, Dave shows up and crumples against a lamp post.  Dave, you should probably just Recover for a minute or two.  You see a cab headed this way.  Mike, didn't you take a cab?
Okay, is Dave recovered enough to talk? 
Sure.
Great.  I turn to Dave "Greased Lightning, I think I see The Hunter arriving.  Tell him I'm headed south, toward the desert road.  Demonic is riding in a chariot made of skulls, pulled by giant flaming dog skeletons with battle armor.  I haven't seen Lucas at all, but I'm sure he's at the nearest bus stop."
 
 
 
That kind of thing.
 
shortest version?  We could _not_ make those characters work.
 
 
 
 
I got no idea how old you are, Neil, and I'm not asking.  But trust me: that particular "dig" was around a lot longer than the internet.
 
 
Never, _EVER_ turn off Pedant mode!  NEVER!
 
in a hobby overflowing with AMGs (angry math guys: thanks, Neil ), it is _vital_ that we keep reminding them what the rules say to the people who read the _words_! 
 

 
 
 
 
Duke
 

On the plus side, you'll be much closer and I can come 'round more often.
 
Almost all of my--
 
Aww, crap!  I totally forgot to go back and post this in Chris's House Rules thread!
 
Sorry, Chris.  
 
 
At any rate, most of my non-supers campaigns use EGO as the target for Presence Attacks.  It just makes more sense to me: presence is your force of Personality; Ego is your strength of will.  It just feels more right.
 
Why not my supers games?  Well for one, I get way more EGO: 10 characters in Supers than in any other genre.  Don't know why, but the bulk of my supers players seem to think that Captain UltraRighteous and Miss Victorious Leader should be as influenceable as any other schmoe on the street.  That, and a lot of them have drifted in and out from other groups that use PRE and PRE Attack as-is.  Even so, though: I don't use presence attacks much (outside of Horror or Occult), but I _do_ use them, and even my regular players have a nasty habit of making EGO: 10 supers.  (sometimes, when I'm really frustrated with them, I think just how inexpensively I could build a mind-controlling villain....  Not that I would, mind you!)
 
That doesn't happen as often at my non-supers games, because most people who aren't already HERO-familiar will instead look for "that particular game" instead of a HERO-based version of it, and my regular players are aware of the PRE vs EGO rule (you know: the same people who _won't_ buy a little PRE for PRE vs PRE rules!  Maddening!)
 
Another exception is my Horroresque games-- well, some of them, anyway, where there are one or more custom damage-tracking characteristics against which PRE-Attacks are directed as a form of sanity or spiritual damage.  (and of course, there are recovery rules as well.  I ain't Lovecraft).  I instituted -- sorry.  Not derailing this thread; my apologies.  _That_ can go into Chris's House Rules thread, when I find it again.  
 
 
 
Duke
 

We use PRE attacks all the time, and yes, there are times it is used on the PCs... moments when they are surprised and shocked outside of normal circumstances, a huge power is demonstrated, etc. I've often found it useful to get across my point as a GM... "The PC knows, whether they player agrees, that they are outclassed and in great danger" or whatever. Forcing a lost 1/2 phase or full action can be a very effective way of "attacking" the PCs in a cinematic way that isn't just damage dealing.
 
My only issue with PRE is that it is one stat, and only one stat, for all non-damage dealing/social combat. It probably is too cheap for the "always hits, area effect, mind control" it theoretically could be... but just because it MIGHT be abused doesn't mean I'm going to throw out one of the favorite mechanics at the table. 
 
Personally, I'm working on building a "social martial arts" based on PRE for attacking vs. EGO for defense, that breaks PRE down based on the various PRE skills. Like there is a Charm maneuver and a Persuasion maneuver, etc. To give those PRE skills more heft and make the PRE attack less "all encompassing."  Not sure how it will work, but we'll see. 

I just found my wife's birthday present. Thank you!