Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

[Split Decision]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Mjonlir strikes me as the very epitome of Physical Manifestation- only as a rare plot device can it be kept from Thor.

 

Of course, it's also unbreakable presumably. So there's that hoary chestnut. But it shouldn't be a difference in Limitation value.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Kind of random, but there was an issue of Hulk when “Professor Hulk” (Banner’s brain in Hulk’s body, but it was really a separate personality all along, yadda, yadda…) took Thor’s hammer away but couldn’t move it. Thor was currently red haired and bearded (I only have the one issue, so I’m not sure if he had manifested as an old Viking version of himself or what) and Hulk didn’t recognize him. The scene went something like this (I’m paraphrasing):

 

Hulk: “You can’t be the real Thor, because if you were I couldn’t to THIS!”

Hulk grabs Thor’s hammer by the head and rips it out of his grasp. It immediately slams to the ground so fast and hard that Hulk is doubled over with half of his huge fist under it.

Hulk: (In a raspy whisper) “I think that broke my fingers…”

 

My point in relating all this? If Hulk hadn’t trapped himself with the hammer, he could have simply kept Thor away from it and deprived Thor of half his power, despite not being able to move or use the hammer himself.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

I've seen an enraged Hulk knock Thor away from the hammer in a fight but then about give himself a hernia trying and failing to lift it. Likewise Count Nefaria was strong enough to block blows with the hammer, but not pick it up. I don't think any amount of physical strength on the part of a living being can overcome that enchantment, regardless of Jeff Loeb's masturbatory Red Hulk fantasies.

[Split Decision]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Red Hulk may somehow be "worthy"? LOL I can't imagine.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

random thoughts...

 

One of the biggest problems with modeling Marvel's Thor is the idea that he is supposed to be able to 'hold his own' with other major 'bricks' like Hercules, Hulk and Namor even if he is separated from his hammer. At the same time, the hammer has clearly been shown to be one of the most powerful items used by a recurring hero in comics. The closest comparisons being items like Cap's shield (the hammer is one of the few items that ever actually damaged it), GL rings and Wonder Woman's lasso and bracelets. Every attempt I've made to model both aspects in one PC using the HERO System always seems to produce a character with a 20+DC potential when using the Hammer in HTH. Because of this, even more so than Superman, Thor is the type of character that if allowed as a PC* almost demands a GM to consider running a campaign group of differing power levels.

 

*350 Starting Points, but no 'caps'.

 

comments?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Red Hulk may somehow be "worthy"? LOL I can't imagine.

 

In one of the Avengers' DVDs, The Incredible (and green) Hulk was so enraged, his strength so great that he was able to lift it and use it as a weapon even though he didn't receive "the power of Thor" from it.

 

So I think that (in general for the Marvel-verse) the Enchantment that makes it "unliftable" has an upper end of effect, one that The Hulk at his strongest/maddest was able to outdo.

 

Even with my idea of using an Immobile focus (with Immobile bought back as a power), "Immobile" would IMO not mean it becomes "The Unmovable Object" that precludes an "Irresistable Force".

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

In one of the Avengers' DVDs' date=' The Increcible (and green) Hulk was so enraged, his strength so great that he was able to lift it and use it as a weapon even though he [b']didn't[/b] receive "the power of Thor" from it.

 

So I think that (in general for the Marvel-verse) the Enchantment that makes it "unliftable" has an upper end of effect, one that The Hulk at his strongest/maddest was able to outdo.

 

Even with my idea of using an Immobile focus (with Immobile bought back as a power), "Immobile" would IMO not mean it becomes "The Unmovable Object" that precludes an "Irresistable Force".

 

But wasn't that the 'Ultimate Avengers' Hulk and Thor?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

random thoughts...

 

One of the biggest problems with modeling Marvel's Thor is the idea that he is supposed to be able to 'hold his own' with other major 'bricks' like Hercules, Hulk and Namor even if he is separated from his hammer. At the same time, the hammer has clearly been shown to be one of the most powerful items used by a recurring hero in comics. The closest comparisons being items like Cap's shield (the hammer is one of the few items that ever actually damaged it), GL rings and Wonder Woman's lasso and bracelets. Every attempt I've made to model both aspects in one PC using the HERO System always seems to produce a character with a 20+DC potential when using the Hammer in HTH. Because of this, even more so than Superman, Thor is the type of character that if allowed as a PC* almost demands a GM to consider running a campaign group of differing power levels.

 

*350 Starting Points, but no 'caps'.

 

comments?

 

Interesting point. I haven't really built Thor but what does that Hammer do that allows it to be so potent but at the same time isn't an utter disaster if Thor loses it?

 

I think the only way you could build it is as a focus for the storm powers, EDM and such but leave it as something relatively pathetic like +2d6 HtH.

 

That doesn't sound like much but if you are dealing with a world class brick to start off with then even a small amount of extra damage can have a big effect in Hero.

 

Meanwhile, if anyone picking up the hammer gains 'The Power Of Thor' (whatever that is), I'm thinking that the Hammer has to have some sort of VPP multiform ability too.

 

Of course a player would never build it with a multiform ability because, well, the base character IS Thor, so they do not need it, but that is how I would imagine it would have to be done.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

But wasn't that the 'Ultimate Avengers' Hulk and Thor?

 

You may be right. I don't own that DVD, and only saw bits of it on TV recently. But I think it stands to reason that Enchantments have limits -- just like most everything else in Hero System.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Interesting point. I haven't really built Thor but what does that Hammer do that allows it to be so potent but at the same time isn't an utter disaster if Thor loses it?

 

I think the only way you could build it is as a focus for the storm powers, EDM and such but leave it as something relatively pathetic like +2d6 HtH.

 

That doesn't sound like much but if you are dealing with a world class brick to start off with then even a small amount of extra damage can have a big effect in Hero.

 

Meanwhile, if anyone picking up the hammer gains 'The Power Of Thor' (whatever that is), I'm thinking that the Hammer has to have some sort of VPP multiform ability too.

 

Of course a player would never build it with a multiform ability because, well, the base character IS Thor, so they do not need it, but that is how I would imagine it would have to be done.

 

Maybe... maybe the Hammer *is* the character, and what we call the character is the Physical Manifestation/Focus?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Maybe... maybe the Hammer *is* the character' date=' and what we call the character is the Physical Manifestation/Focus? [/quote']

 

That's twisted - I love it

[megaplayboy]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Well, the enchantment operates at the level of the original party who enchanted it, in this case the omnipotent "power enow to lay waste a galaxy" Odin. So, I think you have to be operating at a level above Odin in order to overpower the enchantment.

The general requirement is that the person lifting it:

1. be a worthy and noble warrior of exceptional mettle

2. be of a minimum strength level(peak human, based on Capt. America doing it)

 

There are a few exceptions to this:

1. a robot or enchanted construct like the Awesome Android or Destroyer can lift it, and so can a piece of machinery like a crane

2. Odin himself can lift it without difficulty, since he enchanted it himself

3. in zero gravity, the hammer can be moved around, though I consider this an incredibly lame new precedent

 

The original enchantment also provided that if he were separated from his hammer for more than 60 seconds, Thor would revert back to being wimpy Donald Blake(Accidental change, obviously).

 

For a worthy individual, the hammer weighs about a ton, give or take. Its actual weight is supposed to be much greater than that, I'm going to take a wild guess and say somewhere between 6 and 12 tons. So, a guy with superhuman strength is whacking people with a multi-ton, nigh-indestructible mallet. YDCMV (Your Damage Classes May Vary).

 

Aside from the enchantment and the transform into thundergod parts, the hammer has about a dozen(give or take) basic powers:

1. control weather

2. throw and return for big damage(nothing can stop the hammer from returning to Thor's grasp)

3. fly by spinning hammer, throwing and holding on to handle...thor can fly at up to spaceworthy speeds

4. travel between dimensions

5. send people to other dimensions

6. deflect projectiles

7. absorb and redirect energy at opponents

8. create force barriers*

9. time travel--rescinded by Immortus

10. fire lightning bolts

11. project Thor's "godforce" as an energy blast

12. whack people in hth for big damage

 

That's about it, it's the coolest hero weapon in comics, basically.

 

Of course, as a Thorophile, I may be biased.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

You may be right. I don't own that DVD' date=' and only saw bits of it on TV recently. But I think it stands to reason that Enchantments have limits -- just like most everything else in Hero System. [/quote']

 

 

Was this the one?

 

 

It's not even the 'traditional' hammer. It's a hammer/axe combo instead.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Here's my quick & dirty take on building a 350 starting version of the character:

 

 

I Have A Hammer!

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

13/60 STR 3 12- / 21- Lift 151.6kg/102.4tons; 2 1/2d6/12d6 [1/3]

14/21 DEX 12 12- / 13- OCV: 5/7/DCV: 5/7

15/30 CON 10 12- / 15-

13 BODY 6 12-

13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-

15 EGO 10 12- ECV: 5

10/15 PRE 0 11- / 12- PRE Attack: 2d6/3d6

16 COM 3 12-

8/30 PD 5 Total: 8/30 PD (8/20 rPD)

8/30 ED 5 Total: 8/30 ED (8/20 rED)

4 SPD 16 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

6/18 REC 0

30/60 END 0

28/60 STUN 0

Total Characteristic Cost: 73

 

Movement:

Running: 6"/12"

Flight: 20"/40"

Leaping: 2"/4"

Swimming: 2"/4"

 

Cost Powers END

Asgardian Abilities, all slots Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)

47 1) +47 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (59 Active Points) 2

12 2) +7 DEX (21 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2)

24 3) +15 CON (30 Active Points)

4 4) +5 PRE (5 Active Points)

10 5) +13 PD (13 Active Points)

15 6) +19 ED (19 Active Points)

16 7) Damage Resistance (20 PD/20 ED) (20 Active Points)

33 8) Life Support (Eating: Character only has to eat once per week; Extended Breathing: 1 END per 20 Minutes; Immunity All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents; Immunity: All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents; Longevity: Immortal; Safe Environment: Zero Gravity; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Sleeping: Character only has to sleep 8 hours per week) (41 Active Points)

 

51 The Hammer: Multipower, 90-point reserve, (90 Active Points); all slots Restrainable (-1/2), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)

4u 1) Swing!: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Examples: x2 KB, AP, Penetrating, AOE 1 Hex Accurate, Affects Desolidified, Reduced END, etc...; +2) (90 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 9

Notes: Can be combined with up to 30 STR.

5u 2) Throw!: Energy Blast 12d6, No Range Modifier (+1/2) (90 Active Points) 9

5u 3) Hammer Throw Movement: Flight 20", Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1) (90 Active Points) 8

5u 4) Breaking Dimensional Barriers: Extra-Dimensional Movement (Any Dimension, Any Location), x8 Increased Weight, Safe Blind Travel (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (90 Active Points) 3

5u 5) Spinning Shield: Force Wall (18 PD/18 ED) (90 Active Points) 9

5u 6) Lightning!: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2) (90 Active Points) 9

5u 7) Control Weather: Custom Power (Various ways to build this) (90 Active Points) 9

 

Perks

4 Reputation: It's Thor! (A large group) 11-, +2/+2d6

Talents

5 Rapid Healing

Skills

22 Various Skills: Custom Skill

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 277

Total Cost: 350

 

200+ Disadvantages

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 350

[The Hawk God]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

HYPERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I have filed a restraining order against you. You are to remain 100 feet away from my character files. It is frightening just how alike your builds and mine are alike. THIS is nearly the same character I built in 4e called Stormbreaker.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Was this the one?

 

 

It's not even the 'traditional' hammer. It's a hammer/axe combo instead.

 

Umm, maybe. I don't recall the glowing disks, however. I could be thinking about two different movies -- the DVD and what I saw on TV. What I saw on TV could be called the "formation" of the Avengers -- they all started as individual heroes at the start and formed a team during the movie. It aired on TV within the past 12 months or so (IIRC).

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Very nice, Hyper-Man! That is a remarkably effective and accurate build for the points. One quibble, Thor's been shown to be capable of surviving in space indefinitely as far back as I can remember, so I'd upgrade to Self-Contained Breathing and shave the extra 6 points from somewhere else.

 

I think I might take the Throw! EB up to a full non-advantaged 18d6 if campaign limits allow since getting the wind-up for a throw always seemed to let Thor do more impressive damage with it. But if you're dealing with a strict 12DC limit, I can see it working the way you have it designed.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Very nice, Hyper-Man! That is a remarkably effective and accurate build for the points. One quibble, Thor's been shown to be capable of surviving in space indefinitely as far back as I can remember, so I'd upgrade to Self-Contained Breathing and shave the extra 6 points from somewhere else.

 

I think I might take the Throw! EB up to a full non-advantaged 18d6 if campaign limits allow since getting the wind-up for a throw always seemed to let Thor do more impressive damage with it. But if you're dealing with a strict 12DC limit, I can see it working the way you have it designed.

 

Thanks,

 

You hit upon the main issue I was talking about earlier. There is no mechanical reason for the character to not have 18DC @ ranged and 30DC HTH attacks. It all comes down to player & GM agreement or 'soft cap'.

 

HM

[The Hawk God]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

You could also reduce the force wall to cover only one hex or 3 consecutive segments for a more accurate model.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Is the current Thor not super strong/tough even when not done up in his glad rags? I ask because whilst I am a Thorophile, in that I like Thor as a character and have seen some really interesting comics (remember the one where this dragon thing is rampaging around and it has been enchanted to be immune to hammer blows - Thor's faithful retainer runs at it with a spear, causing it a slight nick - and gets mashed. Thor, seeing this, grabs the spear, puts it against the dragon's skull and uses the hammer to drive it into its brain. Best bit was the funeral he gave his retainer chappie. Very emotional for a comic).

 

ANYWAY, I like Thor but I don't know that much about the current character as I'm not up to date at all with my comics, not having a local comic shop any more.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

He currently can change back to non-powered Don Blake when he wishes, but I don't believe he's forced to. He also inherited his father's cosmic power, so I'm not sure that the hammer is actually necessary for controlling storms, etc. anymore. He may just continue using it for such out of habit.

[Mathew]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Maybe... maybe the Hammer *is* the character' date=' and what we call the character is the Physical Manifestation/Focus? [/quote']

 

Well, I did once try to write up Thor with his hammer as a vehicle. Had an AI that was programmed to stay put unless he (or someone worthy) moved it, so all it's flight and STR were constantly spent trying to keep it in one place if anyone else tried to move it.

[dsatow]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Late to the thread, sorry bout this rehash.

 

No Conscious Control would be bad as by definition, the player couldn't use it unless the GM says they can use it, not that only a select individual could use it.

 

On some other ways to do it, you could have a trigger advantage which automatically resets. The trigger would be only if the person was worthy. The focus would also have the detect worthiness. Strength, Dex, Body, Stun, etc. would be on continuing recoverable charge dissipating after a minute.

 

Of course the simplest way is a multiform with a dependence of the focus or revert to normal form.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

So, a REALLY strong zombie could lift Thor's hammer?

[Escafarc]

Re: Thor's Hammer, Mjöllnir

 

Storm it lifted once, right? (I don't remember if this was Thor's hammer though)