Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Christopher R Taylor]

There is a strong temptation to perpetuate a successful Beginner product, as was done with the Basic D&D line that ran parallel to AD&D for years.

 

 

I agree, it has to move people into the real product, because that's where the sales are.  You don't give away free samples of your product forever, just long enough to generate interest.

[Chris Goodwin]

I guess I am severely out of touch. IME, most gamers want to make their own characters. While some prefer simpler chargen systems they want the ability to "roll their own" for extended play. The flexibility possible with Hero's char gen has been the major selling point for the game with people I've recruited. Frankly, there's much else about that is that stand out anymore. 

 

For the long term, yes they do.  When first learning how to play a system with the overwhelming amount of options that Hero has, not so much.  

 

When I started my D&D group, two of them wanted to play pregens, because neither of them had any experience at all with the system.  They had no context to put anything into, so it was better to give them a variety of options to choose from so we could get started. 

[Chris Goodwin]

Nice snark. I'm not trying to be dismissive but to participate the discussion (which I started).

I wasn't trying to be very snarky. I don't think anyone is talking about making a different system. I meant that, literally, there should be a statement in the Hero Lite or whatever, in very large letters, that says that for more, pick up Champions Complete.

 

But that doesn't address my question. The proposed idea doesn't give prospective players a taste of what is, IMO, the meat of the system; what makes it something to engage. That aspect seem done and hidden behind the scenes (like most other systems). Pregen characters with some selectable options, the bare minimum of mechanics (likely mostly how to handle combat), some have proposed that the costs be hidden. These books sound like even using the Hero System with them is practically optional. Which as I said, is fine if the goal is selling books but selling the system seems like it might take something more involved. 

 

That's my concern with the current gist of the proposals.'I mean its all blue skying unless someone here is planning on buying rights to the Hero System but I thought we could discuss differing opinions politely.

 

People aren't even looking at the system. As I've said at least once in this thread and more than once over the years, there are many other systems with free and lite versions that they can check out. D&D, GURPS, Fate. Savage Worlds has a super low-cost entry, and multiple genre free quickstarts. GURPS Lite is a subset of the full game that you could actually make characters in and play out an investigation scene and a combat, so that you could get an idea of whether you want to dip into the full set of books -- and it's the same system. As I said above, after my (admittedly slightly snarky) post, you can, for free and with Wizards' blessing, play an entire campaign, levels 1-20.  With Fate, they give away numerous full RPGs for free, that you can learn how to play.  I'm pretty sure there's a free quickstarter for World of Darkness.  It took me about five seconds to discover that Shadowrun has a free quickstart.  There's an Exalted free quickstart.  Pathfinder.  Open d6.  BRP.  Actively supported free clones of every version of D&D prior to its 4th edition.  

 

Hero is conspicuously absent from that list.  Hero would benefit hugely from a free quickstart, even if it only allows you to play pregen characters, or even if it only allows you to make characters with pregen powers, of which there are many in sources that you can buy.  It doesn't have to be different from full Hero; it just has to be free.  

 

Why is a Hero equivalent of D&D 5e's Starter Set and Basic Rules not good enough?  I've put that forth, now at least twice in this thread, and you've never addressed that.  Would you be willing to?

[Chris Goodwin]

The 5e Starter Set works because it is, as has been pointed out, a subset of the full rules rather than a variant of them. Moreover, to play more D&D you have to move onto the full rules and the core books. Wizards did not perpetuate the simpler game experience by making "extensions" to the Starter Set, effectively turning it into its own product line that allowed players to continue using the free "basic" ruleset with newly published campaign material (Start Set 2, Starter Set 3, or "Starter Set Ravenloft", "Starter Set Dragon Queen Campaign", etc.). That is critical in my view.

 

There is a strong temptation to perpetuate a successful Beginner product, as was done with the Basic D&D line that ran parallel to AD&D for years. But I think that is ultimately detrimental to a small brand like Hero because I think we can afford to split the fanbase even less than we can afford to ignore the needs of potential newbies. I'm not saying that is where it's heading right now; I'm just trying to head that off at the pass so it never creeps there by accident (or design).

 

Who says anyone has to fall to that temptation?  Like, I've put forth my opinions about free quickstart Hero for years, but never once have I thought of having it be anything but Hero, minus pieces.  I'm pretty sure I've used the word "subset" multiple times.  

 

The only question is, can we do it?  Absent explicit permission from DOJ, the answer is no.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

We can do it, and Hero is more than willing to work with people who'll put out products.  The tough part is getting the people with time, energy, and will to get it done.  I can't run a kickstarter, I just don't have that kind of energy or time.  Someone else would have to step up, and either volunteer, or hope they get paid for their time from the excess it collects.  Someone has to either donate art or hope a kickstarter can pay them.  Someone has to donate their writing and skills.  That's a lot of someones who have to treat this as more than just an occasional hobby, but something they want to survive and even thrive.  People for whom this is a passion, who want the game to be more than something fun to play, but a viable business.

That's the tough part when you start creating game supplements and such: you have to treat it like a business, not just something fun you do with your free time. If we can't find that kind of people, this is all just an academic waste of time.  If we can, we can turn Hero around in a way it hasn't seen since 5th edition came out.

[Cantriped]

Personally, I think a starter set should be intended to generate interest in, and supplement Champions Complete (or Fantasy Hero Complete), and ideally cost less than $20 (which probably means its going to be a loss leader to generate core rulebook sales). For that purpose all it really needs is a shiny storage box, a pool of 20d6, six pregenerated player characters, one ~90 page Campaign Book (one that has at least two or three scenarios, and stat-blocks for all included encounters), and maybe a ~30 page Setting Book.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd say 3 hero dice is enough, and a voucher to download Hero-based software, or at least some money off on doing so.  A really good hero dice app would be a smart move, give people that with the box.

[Brian Stanfield]

The D&D 5e Starter Set includes a short campaign, five pregen characters using the Basic version of the D&D 5e rules, and enough rules to play the campaign.  By campaign I mean a linked series of adventures with enough setting (a portion of the Forgotten Realms) to play through the campaign, which is enough to get the characters to level 5.  The D&D 5e Basic rules are a subset of the full D&D rules.  Not different, just not all of them.  You could quite easily and happily -- for free, from Wizards, with their blessing -- download the D&D 5e Basic rules and play a campaign that goes from levels 1-20, as long as you and your players were happy with basic humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings for races, and basic clerics, fighters, rogues, and wizards for classes.  

 

Here's the fun bit though.  The basic rules are balanced enough with the full rules that you can use the full system to create characters to play through the starter set.  In your levels 1-20 Basic rules campaign, you could, partway through, add the Player's Handbook, and all of the options therein, and the new characters would be as balanced as the old ones.  

 

The difference between the 5e Basic rules and the 5e full ruleset isn't like the difference between red box Basic and AD&D 1e.  It's more like the difference between Fantasy Hero Complete and 6e v1/v2/Fantasy Hero.  

 

What we need is some kind of equivalent to the Starter Set, and IMO some kind of equivalent to the D&D 5e Basic Rules.  A short campaign set in a local area of one of the settings, pregen characters, just enough rules to play through the adventure with the pregen characters, and -- again IMO -- a free version of the system so that players can play a full campaign in the partial setting included, with their own characters.  It wouldn't be the full system, so that anyone who wanted to play the full system would have to buy the books, but it would be a subset of the full system.  Not incompatible, just partial.  

 

Any one of us, or any number of us could get together and build a HERO System equivalent to the D&D starter set, with the sole exception of including a free subset of the rules.  That is and always will be the sticking point.  

 

Certainly the owners and operators of DOJ and Hero Games may disagree with me that that's what's needed; I'm not a business expert, nor a publisher, and I'll admit that freely.  But I'm seeing the downward trajectory of Hero Games and the HERO System as much as anyone is, and while what they're doing may be supporting them and keeping their business going, it's not growing the HERO System.  

 

Edit to add:  I bought the D&D 5e Starter Kit for Christmas 2015, and the D&D 5e core books for my birthday in 2016.  I've been playing in a semi-regular campaign since then with a group of friends, about half who haven't played D&D since AD&D 1e, and about half who had little to no RPG experience.  Among that group, they've bought at least three copies of the Player's Handbook.  If there had been a HERO System equivalent I would have gotten them playing Hero instead, and those would have been Hero books they would have bought.  I'm going to try to get them all into Hero, but I'm starting to hear complaints from them about having bought the D&D books and polyhedral dice, they're not so sure they want to switch systems.  I can't blame them, so -- and here's the really crappy part -- I might end up not switching them to Hero at all.  That sucks as much ass as it is possible to suck, but that's reality.

 

I've been thinking about a starter box myself for quite a while. It doesn't have to be much. Fantasy Hero Complete offers .pdfs of pre-gens, a setting, a world, monsters, and maps in about 85 pages of stuff. Broken into a couple of booklets, plus a "lite" ruleset which we discussed in depth here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94641-problems-with-fantasy-hero-complete-and-newbies/), it seems like it already has the components to work. 

 

The packaging and presentation is the problem. It's time for some new art, a nifty box cover, and a reason for your flgs to devote shelf space to it. The Hero System books at my local shop are hidden behind a bunch of other stuff because they are rather drab and amateurish and not very nice to look at. They are in the "flyover" space in the shop that everyone ignores on their way from cool new stuff in the front to the other cool stuff in the back. Hero needs a way to get located in more desirable real estate in a game shop. If it looks like they're just republishing what they've already done, which is already over 15 years old, then there's no point in getting the "new" stuff that will only eat up shelf space. 

 

Many shops are starting to drop Pathfinder from their brick-and-mortar stores because the books take up a whole lot of space, and most people are getting the .pdfs instead. Hero is heading that way because it is obviously a lot more cost effective. It needs to come up with a way to recapture a little bit of that shelf space and avoid being resigned to an online-only presence. 

 

One thing we've got going for us is an active forum network. I think it could be promoted and utilized with a beginner box set. Got questions? Ask the experts! Steve Long answering questions virtually every day is a magnificent bonus!

 

Anyway, it's all a dream. Money is the obvious problem. But I think if someone actually put these things together into a nice presentation for DOJ, perhaps they would approve a Kickstarter for it. If they don't have to front the money or do any of the work, it just might work. 

 

Maybe . . . .

[zslane]

The Hero System at least has the benefit of only using d6 dice, something any gamer will already have, and probably in abundance.

 

I'm ambivalent towards a product that tries to entice the complete RPG newbie. I feel it would be a far more effective use of time and resources to target the Hero System newbie, rather than those who have never played any tabletop RPG before. I am not convinced that there is a good way to make the Hero System digestible to someone with no RPG experience at all, and still make it feel anything like the Hero System. To my mind, the Hero System is best suited to folks who already understand how RPGs work and have experience with at least one other system. It is, after all, a fairly advanced RPG that demands quite a bit from its players.

 

And as I've said before, I think it would be a mistake to think that the best vector for improving the future of the system and the brand is to "sell the system". I don't believe you'll get very far trying to convince the uninitiated that they just don't know what they're missing, and give them a laundry list of reasons why the Hero System is so great ("Create the character you want with the most flexible system available!"). I believe you have to draw them in completely obliquely, by giving them a campaign setting they desperately want to play in, and make them use the Hero System, just like in order to play in the World of Darkness you had to use the Storyteller system.

[Cantriped]

I'd say 3 hero dice is enough, and a voucher to download Hero-based software, or at least some money off on doing so.  A really good hero dice app would be a smart move, give people that with the box.

I'm not talking about fancy Hexmen dice here, just cheap dollar aisle d6s for when you're rolling Normal Damage. 3d6 is only enough for Success Rolls, it'll make the product look and feel more complete if is contain enough dice to actually play a session the out-of-the-box with total newbies (aka, people who might not own their own dice-bags full of d6s yet). Honestly 30d6 would be better, since it ensures they have enough dice to roll terminal velocity Falling Damage.

[Cantriped]

Quick estimates of the production costs for the package I cited above:

Estimated Cost of Packaging: $5 for a box large enough to contain the materials below.

Estimated Dice Costs: $3 for 30d6

Estimated Printing Costs: $8.50 for ~144 pages of Character Sheets, Campaign Book, and Setting Book.

Total Estimated Cost: $16.50

 

If you charged $20 (like I suggested above), your profit margin is only 17.5% (assuming I can math...). Which is a terrible return on your investment, but as a loss leader to encourage investment in copies of CC/FHC might be worth it.

You could increase the box price to 30, vastly increasing your profits, yet still keeping the entry cost for a new GM under $60 (which is reasonable considering the costs of Pathfinder Books).

[Nolgroth]

You know, this thread is full of great ideas. So let's get to steppin'.

 

I'm only halfway joking. I have been personally working on something. I'm making progress. It will be awhile before I am done. While help and feedback will be welcome from time to time, I don't think that writing/design by committee is going to be beneficial.

 

I'll post more when I have more than the package deals done. Maybe at that time, some of you would be kind enough to provide feedback.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've found three sites that will build your game box and fill it with goodies, if you wish.  You can even get custom dice made, there's a whole industry of boardgame making out there.

[Ninja-Bear]

I see we are back to starter kits. My big question there is, if it would be a reality and they become leader, what are they leading too? If there is a dearth of modules, the starter kit still won't answer that problem.

[Nolgroth]

I see we are back to starter kits. My big question there is, if it would be a reality and they become leader, what are they leading too? If there is a dearth of modules, the starter kit still won't answer that problem.

 

You have to start somewhere and potentially drawing in new blood is a good start. You are right in that it cannot stop there. A starter kit is no better than Yet Another Setting product, if there is no downroad support. In other words, I am advocating for both. Heck, I would even be happy with some sort of quarterly Dungeon-esque e-fanzine to keep up some sort of support. The most important thing is to stop talking about it and do something. I have decided that, in the short-term, I am not looking to make a pile of cash (not that I believe the market is big enough for that anyway). So I am totally "labor of loving" the project I am working on. I am aiming to have a prototype done by end of summer. Maybe earlier. I have been making good progress. I think it is entirely within the realm of possibility.

 

We'll see beyond that though. I have a couple of good adventure ideas constantly floating around. Maybe the follow-up will be something that I publish for profit here and on Drivethru or something.

[Ninja-Bear]

Nolgroth i agree with you. I too am working on something. I'm writing up some basic villains to be used. Once I get Hero designer again, I will be able to share them. I think the reality though of having a free scenario posted for either CC or FHC is more achievable at this time. Seriously I think that Hero should republish Vipers Nest as a scenario and I would gladly help update and modify Viper.

[Nolgroth]

Basic villains and/or a free scenario certainly count as something.

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw Nolgroth I'll help you if I'm able too.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm working on a full fantasy campaign setting, and I have 3 fantasy adventures out so far, with more on the way.  Every big book I put out, I slip an adventure between so there's some content being produced.  If more people would kick in, that would help.

 

Just reproducing the old adventures with 6th edition updates as pdf downloads would be a big step for Hero, there are quite a few champions adventures out there.  Having To Serve and Protect and Zodiac Conspiracy updated to 6th would be great moves.

[Doc Democracy]

Btw Nolgroth I'll help you if I'm able too.

Yeah Nolgroth, if you have some grunt work, proof-reading or messing about with character sheets, I am willing to pitch in.

 

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

My "To serve and protect" is missing every other page. First you would have to see if Hero has the rights.

[steriaca]

The big problem with reprinting old adventures for the 6th edition, Hero/DOJ doesn't own all the characters anymore. You have to get the ok from the original author, he wants to be payed again (and should, because those characters are his), ect. You seen to forget that Hero gave the rights back to the author before 5th edition came out. Even earlier with some of them (standard clause of rights returning if they haven't used a character within x amount of time).

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm happy to write.  I can crank out text.  My typing speed approaches that of Steve Long.  I write boatloads of text that I put up on Google Docs for people to read and use for free.  I can proofread and edit.  

[Lord Liaden]

I believe you have to draw them in completely obliquely, by giving them a campaign setting they desperately want to play in, and make them use the Hero System, just like in order to play in the World of Darkness you had to use the Storyteller system.

 

Problem is, you can't come up with a World of Darkness that lots of people desperately want to play in, on demand. It's a mixture of art, science, and a whole lot of luck. Look at what settings are available right now for Hero Fantasy alone, between Hero Games and other parties. Turakian Age. Valdorian Age. Atlantean Age. Tuala Morn. Narosia. Kamarathin. Last Dominion. Echoes of Heaven. Very diverse, quality settings, but crowds aren't exactly beating a path to their doors.

 

There are many possible approaches, like the ones discussed on this thread, which might help somewhat; but if there was one magic bullet that guaranteed success, someone would have found it by now.

[zslane]

Problem is, you can't come up with a World of Darkness that lots of people desperately want to play in, on demand. It's a mixture of art, science, and a whole lot of luck.

Sure. And it takes a mixture of talent, inspiration, time, and money to make it happen. I'm not saying these things are easy to find/do, I'm saying they are nevertheless necessary for anything meaningful to occur. Anything else/less, IMO, is wasted effort. Of course only time will tell if I am right or wrong, but the decline of the brand over the course of the last two editions has done nothing to contradict my theories.