Many 6th Edition villains too tough?

[Tech]

NOTE: There are spoilers about the villains in question in this thread so be aware.

 

 

In the 'Book of the Destroyer', 'Champions Villains Volume 1: Master Villains', 'Champions Villains Volume 3: Solo Enemies', there are many villains posted, such as Dr. Destroyer, Firewing, Slug, Black Paladin, etc. The ones I just mentioned are just a few that I truly wonder if anyone uses as stated. Sure, you can take what was presented and modify it to fit your campaign but why are they at the power levels mentioned? Why are they throwing 30d6, 22d6, 20d6 attacks, etc.? Why have Black Paladin able to fight at DCV 21 in HTH combat? And on and on. These are monstrously, and I'll add, ridiculously powerful to be used.

 

Does anyone actually uses these villains as presented? I find it strange that these are the representations of what a beginning GM/Player new to the system is expected to come across. Even the 'VIPER:Coils of the Serpent' book had eye-popping Ripper and Oculon statistics to name a couple from there. I've heard there are campaigns out there that can actually handle this, but those are very rare based on the multitude of threads I've read through over the years. I would say that these books are adding the ultra/mega-powerful for those that want them, but the vast majority of campaigns simply will have to have the villains lowered or re-tooled to make them acceptable to most players.

 

What's your take?

[bluesguy]

I did use Black Paladin in a game where he fought the entire team of superheroes.  He is nasty.  Characters got hurt.  Well until someone decided to pick up a semi truck and smash him with it.  I think that stunned him and buried him under the wreckage.  The character then used semi's axle to beat him into oblivion.  This was after he had take a pedal pub full of people and lifted it up with a crane above a bunch of rebar that was sticking up and released the cable. The team saved the innocents of course.

 

I think the only thing I changed was turning his KA into normal attacks.  They were still very nasty but not quite as deadly.

[Lord Liaden]

I have used those villains as presented, sometimes downgraded, and sometimes upgraded. Campaigns cover a wide range of power levels, either because a longstanding game group has risen to that class, or because the group just wants to run a story line on the order of a Justice League or Legion of Superheroes. I like villain compendia that support any of the styles of play one sees in the comics. For every official Champions villain like DD or Firewing, there's an Ambush or Lash or El Salto. Overall I'm quite satisfied with what the company has provided in terms of plug-and-play villainy.

[steriaca]

Since I haven't played in ages, I lost track of how much of what is considered "normal". But from my memories, 60 AP of power is "standard", 80-90 is an experienced villain, and 120 is Doctor Destroyer. Problem is, point inflation has made 60 AP look weak.

 

I do agree with Lord Lianden. Each of the three books have various point values (with the Mastermind book having the least variance, but your supposed to have them face there henchmen first).

[Matt the Bruins]

I have always thought it's ridiculous to have a Dr. Doom expy with 150-point suit based weaponry that eclipses the attacks of cosmic heavy hitters like Firewing and the Star Guard. Were I to run a game with him as a villain I'd probably drop his attack multipower down to 90 active points with an overload option that boosts up to 120 or so, and compensate by raising the Control Cost of his gadget pool to 150 for those occasions when he wants to build a giant laser cannon and carve his name into the moon.

[Lord Liaden]

Perfectly fair for you to do so for your games, as you prefer. But ask yourself what you would expect if Dr. Doom secluded himself from doings on Marvel Earth 616 for ten years, expressly to focus on upgrading his technology, including building the most powerful suit of armor he could for himself?

[Rhino]

Many Hero gamers are munchkins that are quite capable of building characters that have incredible capacity for the points. At convention games that allow players to bring their own characters, I let them bring whateve they want and dal I h it by using the higher level characters from Champions Villains.  It works.

[Rhino]

And I don't intend any disparagement of Hero fans or munchkins.

[Lord Liaden]

It's a label we wear with pride.

[Cassandra]

One problem the Hero System has had was that the villains in their supplements were built on so many points it takes an entire team of heroes to have a chance.  Against a group of villains most beginning teams have no chance at all.  

[Lord Liaden]

That's true for quite a few of the ones in 5E/6E books. Nowhere near all.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I really don't have a problem with it. There's SOOOOO many villains. Plenty to use for all power levels...and quite frankly....the likes of Firewing and Mechanon are supposed to be tough enough to wreck entire teams of heroes. They aren't the only villains in the books though.

[Hugh Neilson]

I recall the Geodesics, way back when, seeming very lightweight, when I suspect they were intended as examples of beginning characters (too bad we had built our characters to the standard of the example villains in 1e Champions, rather than the standard of Crusader and Starburst, who were challenged by Ogre and a few bank robber henchmen).  Most early players seemed to take the likes of Pulsar and Dragonfly as starting PC power levels, rather than challenging opponents for a team of starting PCs.  Power creep started right out of the gate, really.

[Tech]

Does anyone use those hi-end stated villains as written?

[Lord Liaden]

 

1 hour ago, Tech said:

Does anyone use those hi-end stated villains as written?

On 1/23/2018 at 2:22 PM, Lord Liaden said:

I have used those villains as presented, sometimes downgraded, and sometimes upgraded.

 

[Rhino]

8 hours ago, Tech said:

Does anyone use those hi-end stated villains as written?

Yes, I do.  The big hitters are behind the scenes until the pcs get enough experience to have a prayer (with smart play and help).

[winterhawk]

On 1/29/2018 at 1:07 PM, Tech said:

Does anyone use those hi-end stated villains as written?

 

Yes, and I make sure the players know the gravity of the situation.  Having the villain take out an NPC with one shot is a good starter.  I've found that it gives players a chance to cut loose with their 'I only use this attack against really tough guys' attack, push powers with heroic effort, think creatively and use teamwork.  Don't forget to reward the PCs with extra XP for taking one of the Big Bads out.

[massey]

On 1/29/2018 at 1:07 PM, Tech said:

Does anyone use those hi-end stated villains as written?

 

We had a game once where that Dr Destroyer ran away because he didn't want to fight the heroes.  "Screw this, I'm out."  He figured somewhere out there, there were easier worlds to conquer.

[Lord Liaden]

I remember one of our forum colleagues -- Lord Mhoram IIRC -- who claimed that after Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks was published, his long-standing game group with their team of experienced high-end PCs faced Dr. Destroyer as written in that book, and in two Turns of combat, killed him. Killed.

[Matt the Bruins]

I guess I could see it happening with the right penalty-inflicting Change Environments, AVLDs, NNDs and such. Even Destroyer as written isn't invulnerable to every avenue of attack a dedicated superhero team could throw his way.