VPP Option: Easy Skill Roll Required

[unclevlad]

As it says.  I'm thinking of this as an expansion.  VPP either requires a normal skill roll at -1 per 10, or no skill roll.  I'm thinking of adding Easy Skill Roll Required, for +1/2.  Thoughts?  I'm thinking this is a nice intermediate step, and quite appropriate for narrower VPPs.  But just in general, having nothing between 0 and +1 kinda screams for a middle ground to me.

[JmOz]

Easier, and normaly cheaper, to buy the skill up instead, I think 6th got rid of the idea of skill levels for removing penalties on non combat skills...kind of remember that as being part of 5th...

[dmjalund]

i thought i read somewhere there's an option to buy VPP with the -1 per 20pt to skill

[Duke Bushido]

I am always in favor of shading or stepping advantages and limitations to precisely craft something just a little different,

 

However, as JmOz mentioned, you might want to compare it to the cost of actually raising the skill roll, and keep in mind that, depending on edition, the roll you select will vary that cost.

 

Still, even if it did work out a small bit less expensive to raise the skill roll, I likely wouldnt  let that stop me from building it the way I saw it in my head.

[steriaca]

9 hours ago, unclevlad said:

As it says.  I'm thinking of this as an expansion.  VPP either requires a normal skill roll at -1 per 10, or no skill roll.  I'm thinking of adding Easy Skill Roll Required, for +1/2.  Thoughts?  I'm thinking this is a nice intermediate step, and quite appropriate for narrower VPPs.  But just in general, having nothing between 0 and +1 kinda screams for a middle ground to me.

Look at "Requires A Roll" limitation. Next edition I would scrap the separate skill roll on VPP and use the "Requires A Roll" limitation. That way you have tons of roll options. 

[Asperion]

As JmOz  noted, there was a skill that would allow one to partially eliminate the penalty of the VPP. I like this skill since you can more control the amount of penalty that it gets applied to, or the particular power. 

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, steriaca said:

Look at "Requires A Roll" limitation. Next edition I would scrap the separate skill roll on VPP and use the "Requires A Roll" limitation. That way you have tons of roll options. 

 

No Skill Roll Required is an advantage, not a limitation.  The base VPP requires a skill roll that's -1 per 10 Active, which as a limitation is -1/2.  So the issue is, how about allowing the intermediate step of the easy skill roll, at -1 per 20, and call that a +1/2 advantage.  Skill Roll *is* the correct fit, as it clearly should be a scaling check.

 

 

From a cost perspective, it actually is cheaper to buy up the skill roll, particularly since I'm using Requires a Skill Roll (normal or easy, depending on the skill roll for changing the slot) as a common modifier.  But, the skill roll itself gets to be more than a little crazy, and that bugs me;  it tends to be the one roll that's wildly out of line with the rest.  So yeah, I can certainly just buy up the roll several points, but I figure I'd like to have the intermediate option, cuz No Skill Roll (and presumably then, no skill roll attached to using the powers) is CRAZY expensive most of the time.

 

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

For no points, a VPP can be changed out of combat without a skill roll, or in combat requiring a skill roll at -1 per 10 Active Points.  Skills in the pool don't have to RSR to use.  If I were going to make it no skill roll out of combat, or -1 per 20 in combat, I'd probably make that a +1/4 Advantage, as the difference in RSR between -1 per 10 and -1 per 20 is +1/4.  

In practice, a 60 Active Point power would take -6 at -1/10 or -3 at -1/20.  +1 to Power Skill is 2 points, so not even taking the reduced cost of PSLs into account, the difference there is 6 points worth.  Assuming a straight up 60 point pool, with 30 points in control cost, a +1/4 Advantage is 7.5 points.  You're getting a better deal even if you buy bonuses to your Power Skill, much less PSLs.  

[Ockham's Spoon]

4 hours ago, steriaca said:

Look at "Requires A Roll" limitation. Next edition I would scrap the separate skill roll on VPP and use the "Requires A Roll" limitation. That way you have tons of roll options. 

Yeah, I already do this.  A VPP is a Stop Sign power, so the GM needs to look over anything like this of course, but this has worked just fine for me.

[HeroGM]

19 minutes ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

Yeah, I already do this.  A VPP is a Stop Sign power, so the GM needs to look over anything like this of course, but this has worked just fine for me.

Just adapt RSR for it. I'm nor a big fan of some.ox the VPP requirements as is. It bloats what should be a simple build, 

[unclevlad]

12 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

For no points, a VPP can be changed out of combat without a skill roll, or in combat requiring a skill roll at -1 per 10 Active Points.  Skills in the pool don't have to RSR to use.  If I were going to make it no skill roll out of combat, or -1 per 20 in combat, I'd probably make that a +1/4 Advantage, as the difference in RSR between -1 per 10 and -1 per 20 is +1/4.  
 

 

Requires a skill roll (-10) is -1/2.

No Skill Roll Required is +1 on the VPP.

Reason?  Just hit me.  Because it's on the control cost, which is 1/2 the active points.

So that's why I'm saying -1 per 20 should be allowed, at +1/2;  it's completely in line with the existing rules.

BTW, I know you don't *have* to take RSR as a common modifier, but cripes, if you're buying the power skill roll in the first place, it's almost SCREAMING to be taken in most cases.  Exceptions can be:

 

--A Blast/Flash/RKA VPP has 3 limitations that can be mixed nicely:  Beam, Red Pen, Limited Range.  (Especially for lots of base dice, the range mod kills you well before you get to 1/2 max range.)  Plan to take 2;  you're at -1/2.  Other VPPs can use the same notion;  you're always expecting to slap some limitations on.

--Little things can be done easily (no limitations);  big things might require Concentration or Extra Time or the like.  So 40 pool size, 60 active...up to 40, no sweat.  An example might be a single-targeted Healing, versus a Mass Heal (AoE).

 

OTOH, RSR is simply insanely good when the VPP is being built to support multiple powers at once...120 pool size, 60 active with RSR as a common mod means you can have 3 max-active powers going at the same time.  And remember:  it *is* offsetting your control cost.  So if that 120 and 60 VPP is, let's say, half phase to change slots, and has, let's say, only -1/2 limitation on powers available:

60 control = 30 points, * 1.5 for half phase to switch is 45.  1/2 limit for limited powers --> 30.  RSR as a common mod --> 22.  Still a nice savings.  And obviously if the VPP powers are even less limited, it's helping even more.

[JmOz]

There is a BIG difference, especially with instant powers.

 

LION heart, has a VPP.  He can reconfigure his Nanite armor to change to what he needs.  While fighter The Winter, he changes his energy blasters to a entangle.  He rolls ONCE without RSR on the VPP now he can entangle away.  WITH RSR he needs to roll every time he uses the power.  

[drunkonduty]

Hmm.

 

So I've always assumed that RSR on a VPP would mean an extra skill roll. The first VPP skill roll to reconfigure the VPP (as per VPP rules), the second to make the power work (as per RSR rules.) And if you have to do both in the same phase then so be it.

 

Is that too harsh? After reading this thread I'm thinking that may be too harsh.

[JmOz]

Sounds RAW to me...

 

[drunkonduty]

Yeah that's how it seems to me too. But I thought maybe others were doing it differently.

[unclevlad]

1.  By default, a VPP requires a skill roll to change the configuration of powers while in combat.  

2.  RSR can also be taken as a modifier on individual powers, or as a common modifier for the VPP, so that it applies to the activation of ALL powers.

3.  The skill for #1 can be the same skill for #2.

 

You *can* buy the advantage No Skill Roll Required on your VPP, but *also* buy Requires a Skill Roll as per point 2.  They're totally separate.  It's just not very efficient.

 

JmOz, sure, if you take RSR as a common modifier on the VPP, you'll have to make the roll every time.  However, if you've left the skill roll intact (and thus are NOT paying the +1 advantage to the control cost) for the VPP configuration...you've already got the skill covered, because you use the same skill.  For the VPP configuration, you'll invest enough in the skill roll to cover the full Active Points you're paying for in the control cost.  Well, OK, that's already likely giving you a decent roll...yeah, with a 60 point VPP, I'll buy *at least* a 20- skill, so I've got at least a 14-.  So if I slap RSR as a common modifier on the powers...they're at 14-.  And remember, this knocks down pool size...with no other limitation, instead of a 60 Pool, 60 Control VPP, you need only buy a 40 Real / 60 Control.  So you're saving 20 right there.  And hey, if you're not comfortable with 14- activations?  Slap 4 of those 20 into your skill roll.

 

The math:

1.  18 Int, so base roll is 13-.

2.  Active Cost for the VPP will be 62, to allow 12d6 or 10d6 Reduced END.  We'll also go with 1/2 phase to change the VPP.

3.  Limited powers:  Blast, RKA, and Flash, based on heat and/or light.  Call this -1/2;  this is a VPP-only modifier, like the half phase.

 

Now:

Config A:  near-cosmic.  No Skill Roll Required for the VPP, no skill roll for the powers.  Pool size is 62.  Control Cost is 31 * 5/2 * 2/3  (+1 1/2 for no skill roll required and half phase, -1/2 for limited powers) = 155 / 3 = 52.  Skill roll cost = 0.  Total cost = 114.

 

Config B:  Drop the No Skill Roll Required.  Control Cost --> 31 * 3/2 * 2/3 = 31.  So the VPP cost is now 93.  To get a 14- skill roll on the VPP, you need a 20-, so 7 levels.  That's 17 points.  Total cost is 110.  So the skill roll is saving you *4*.  Not worth it.

 

Config  C, leave the skill roll on the VPP, add RSR as a common modifier.  Pool size --> 41.  Control cost --> 31 * 3/2 * 1/2... because the RSR common modifier *also* reduced the control cost...so it's now getting a -1 limitation at this point.  So it's 31 * 3/4 = 23.  Total cost: 64.  For the skill roll, let's go with a 16-;  we'll miss that roll 1 time in 50.  That's 21 points.  So the total points you'll need to spend on this VPP is 85.  You're saving nearly 30.

 

Config D, now I want to slap 62 points into attacks AND 60 points into defenses.  So the control cost stays 62.  If I use config C, with that 22- skill roll, my pool size only needs to be 82, so the whole VPP is 125.  The near-cosmic would be 174.  (I'd have to argue for a different Limited Powers limitation, but for convenience, let's say we still have a -1/2 here.)  Because now, the 2 largest chunks of most power-based character sheets are getting a -1/2 limitation.