High Powered Hero Campaign

[Tywyll]

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

"Pointless Champions" is an excellent article by our long-absent forum colleague, Theron Bretz, in Digital Hero #3, referring to 5E Hero System. A substantial excerpt from that article was hosted for free on an earlier incarnation of the Hero Games website, and you can still view it here.

 

Two or three other articles from that issue of DH could also be useful to Tywyll.

 

I did read that article a long time ago, it was what got the idea stuck in my head. I will have to dig up that issue to read the other articles! Thank you for pointing me at them!

 

23 hours ago, Echo3Niner said:

I actually have a thread on a campaign I've been running, that is "Cosmic powered" - 1500 point characters: 

 

The high-level stuff starts about halfway down 1st page.

 

There is a 6th Ed version of The Hulk, in my game called 'Zerk - who is  2000 points.

 

We haven't had much issue running this level of game, even though they have crazy high (~40d6) attacks - BUT, and this is the point; I have mature, adult players, who have been roleplaying for the better part of 30+ years, and are really in it for the story - so they're not trying to min/max the system - just make good, well rounded characters, that fit their ideals for the characters they want to play.

 

If you read though it, hope it helps.

 

I'm reading your stuff now! Thanks for sharing. I would love to see some of the PCs! It's funny, I was thinking of using The Empress as one of the big bads as well!

[Echo3Niner]

On 11/4/2021 at 7:57 PM, Tywyll said:

I'm reading your stuff now! Thanks for sharing. I would love to see some of the PCs! It's funny, I was thinking of using The Empress as one of the big bads as well!

 

Attached is the PDF for Solar and her example VPP powers (just the powers section of that PDF).

 

I have recently updated the last few episodes...

Solar.pdf Solar VPP Power List.pdf

[dsatow]

Sorry, very late to this thread.  Been concentrating on other things, like getting a job.  

 

1) I think a lot of official villains which hit a defense wall are designed like that because they are designed to be challenging to the 12d6/60 act heroes.  They can be taken out by these heroes but are very dangerous to the same heroes due to the high amount of damage they throw.

2) Having been in several very high damage limit campaigns (over 15d6), the defenses generally goes up as damage goes up. So if your dice start at 12d6 and 27 def, it goes up as your dice goes up: e.g.: 14d6 and 35 def, 16d6 and 40 def, 18d6 and 48 def, 20d6 and 55 def, etc.  CVs are also similar, going up at a similar rate.

3) One of the biggest problems with getting to the high levels of powers is that you can never do a story with them at the lower scale again.  From 12-15d6, you can still have police, robbers, and governments step in and still be a bother.  But at some point, usually after 15d6, these things are quite silly.  It ain't like the comics where you can have a human interest story where the Justice League solves Santa's murder or where the Avengers takes on the Kingpin or the Circus of Crime.  It seems like the OP is fine with this, but it can be limiting.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Great analysis Dsatow, particularly part 3.

[Echo3Niner]

On 12/21/2021 at 1:37 PM, dsatow said:

3) One of the biggest problems with getting to the high levels of powers is that you can never do a story with them at the lower scale again.  From 12-15d6, you can still have police, robbers, and governments step in and still be a bother.  But at some point, usually after 15d6, these things are quite silly.  It ain't like the comics where you can have a human interest story where the Justice League solves Santa's murder or where the Avengers takes on the Kingpin or the Circus of Crime.  It seems like the OP is fine with this, but it can be limiting.

 

While I agree with this in a literal sense (understanding you mean the "normal", human/earthly, cops/robbers/gov.) - I think you can still have the same emotional impact and kind of stories, by simply using stand-ins (with higher combat values, that are higher than "normals", much like you mentioned the other stats going up as the game goes along).

 

An example would be a murder mystery with intergalactic cops, or an alien pirate (or other "robbers"), and of course the governments can be intergalactic also, or you can simply have the earthly government enlist/create/grow/build/etc. some super-agents.

 

Much like the scale of "normal" cops, robbers or government agents; they may not be on scale with the heroes, but can be the same steps away as "normal" cops, robbers or gov. agents are from "normal" heroes - thus providing the same "bother" and possibility for the "human interest story".

 

Just takes a little more creativity and pre-work by the GM.

[Jhamin]

11 hours ago, Echo3Niner said:

Much like the scale of "normal" cops, robbers or government agents; they may not be on scale with the heroes, but can be the same steps away as "normal" cops, robbers or gov. agents are from "normal" heroes - thus providing the same "bother" and possibility for the "human interest story".

 

Just takes a little more creativity and pre-work by the GM.

 

That invites the question: If you are just going to scale up everything.. why run at high power in the first place?

[Echo3Niner]

29 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

 

That invites the question: If you are just going to scale up everything.. why run at high power in the first place?

 

Well, I know for my players, part of it is that they know comics, movies, TV shows (both live-action and animated) and they have expectations of what characters of that type (cosmic level in our case) can and can't do.

 

The idea of making a Hulk or Superman character, on 400 points, was just silly.  Yes, I know people have done it, and you can get the gist of it, I get it; but, you can't hold up a mountain range like the Hulk did, or move planets like Superman did on 400 points  (go take a look at my 'Zerk character on another thread  - who is a Hulk facsimile; that's true Hulk level).  And my players know that (both from a points perspective, and a storytelling perspective - remember, I have mature players, who are in it for the story, so they're not min/maxers, trying to build someone unstoppable).

 

For our game, they need to be able to travel the galaxy and deal with fleets at a time, by themselves.  But, we knew that going in, that was the game they wanted to play - so I geared it for that.  They HAVE to destroy fleets at a time, because if they don't Earth will be invaded and overrun, etc.

 

So, they do ignore the "normals", but that doesn't stop my stories; we literally just ignore them, I don't roll for them, they just "bounce off".

 

It all boils down to the game level you want to play at - there is a difference between a Dare Devil, street criminal campaign, and an Avenger's level (400+ point) campaign, vs. a Silver Surfer, cosmic level campaign.  Different style of play, different settings, types of issues, etc.  But, that doesn't mean you can't still have the heart-touching, humanitarian games, just requires some planning and pre-work on the GMs part.

 

Yes you level everything up appropriately, to keep the game competitive and fun; but, not every character is scaled up, just the ones that make sense for the story.  In an Avengers level game, Iron Man doesn't worry about the Punisher coming after him; they're not on the same level.  But, I can have just as poignant stories for either.

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Echo3Niner
Adding additional thoughts and link to 'Zerk

[assault]

12 hours ago, Echo3Niner said:

In an Avengers level game, Iron Man doesn't worry about the Punisher coming after him; they're not on the same level. 

 

Does the Punisher know that Iron Man is Tony Stark?

Black Widow and Hawkeye were originally Iron Man villains. With a bit of work, Punisher could get up to their level.

Iron Man would win in a stand up fight - which the Punisher would do everything possible to avoid.

Iron Man would have to worry if the Punisher came after him. Fortunately he has a bodyguard of expendables like Hawkeye and Black Widow to protect him.

[Tjack]

2 minutes ago, assault said:

Black Widow and Hawkeye were originally Iron Man villains. With a bit of work, Punisher could get up to their level.

    True, but back then, Iron Man was a lot less of a threat.  All of his attacks were on Charges and he kept having to plug himself into an electrical socket in the middle of a fight to keep his heart going.

[Echo3Niner]

10 hours ago, assault said:

 

Does the Punisher know that Iron Man is Tony Stark?

Black Widow and Hawkeye were originally Iron Man villains. With a bit of work, Punisher could get up to their level.

Iron Man would win in a stand up fight - which the Punisher would do everything possible to avoid.

Iron Man would have to worry if the Punisher came after him. Fortunately he has a bodyguard of expendables like Hawkeye and Black Widow to protect him.

 

I think thou doth missed the broader point I was making about levels scaling up / staying relatively equal / keeping the ability to have heart-touching, humanitarian stories...

 

As has been mentioned a gazillion times, in the comics, everything is relative to the story - so if the writers wanted to have a Punisher / Iron Man crossover, they'd make it happen - whether it made sense or not.

 

And yes, if the Punisher knew Tony Stark was Iron Man, and was seriously going after him; Stark should worry, in the broader sense.

 

But, if like in most comics, Iron Man ran across the Punisher in the midst of a story; and the Punisher had no time to prepare - Tony would have nothing to worry about...

 

All of that wasn't the point however...

[dsatow]

Let me clarify number three.  Any game can have poignant, emotionally driven stories.  All I am saying is that there is a difference between saving a city or planet vs. a home or a homeless person's encampment.  Both can be emotionally well driven stories but they are driven from different perspectives.   Also, some players and GMs may not want to play games in that small scale.  That's just fine. 

 

In a similar vein, too small a scale, say a street level campaign, would have issues on a galactic level threat.  Batman stories are a good example of this.  A common complaint with Batman is he's fighting with Superman against the forces of Apokolips where one parademon fights with power of 3 squads.  And then has problems with the Penguin.

 

Apples and oranges can both be sweet, but they are still apples and oranges.

[Echo3Niner]

For those saying high powered campaigns don't work for combat, or it's too hard, or breaks down, or whatever; so, you have to only focus on story...  I just posted about our most recent game in my high-powered campaign, which was totally combat: here.

 

For Firewing I only raised his OCV and DCV to the high 20's.  For War Monger, I raised his OCV and DCV to the low 30s.

 

Both worked well; with the Firewing fight taking over a full turn, and the War Monger fight taking about half a turn, with the whole party against him...

 

Just as an example of what I was saying; as long as you keep the number's fairly equal, you can still have good combat too.