High Powered Hero Campaign

[Grailknight]

46 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

 

They do, but honestly they never talk hard numbers really. And while the character attack values are typically super high, their defenses don't seem to match. 

Like Defender 3K can shoot 20d6 eb but only has 30rdef/36ndef. 

Thalya can fire off a 12d6 ap EB but only has 32rdef/44ndef

Rampart's main attack seems to be a Haymaker, which will do 28d6 vs his 50 def, meaning 48 on average gets through.

 

Basically most people are stunned by their own attacks. ;( Maybe I am missing something though?

 

The design strategy of most of published Hero is two(mostly) or three hit fights. The genre examples at upper levels is 2-3 turns. These things are not consistent with each other.

[unclevlad]

In Champions Now, IIRC, a 10d6 attack would be high.  And normal def is cheap;  rDef is pricey.  That's where the cost for Piercing wouldn't quite carry over.

 

In 5E, armor piercing is +1/2.  That suggests make Piercing +1/4, keeping the "BODY is reduced only by rDef".  it leaves the STUN untouched.  

 

After that it's campaign rules.  Maximum might be 16 DCs for regular-use attacks.  (I've built martial artist types with, say, Martial Strike doing 15d6, and Offensive Strike doing 17d6.)  You may have to gauge how to handle autofire.  If someone's Haymakering quite a bit...that becomes a regular-use attack.  Move Through can be similar.  On character building...set a minimum number of points for non-combat skills, talents, and perks.  (Combat Luck, Defensive Maneuver, CSLs, any Power skill, Combat Sense, probably Danger Sense, autofire and multi-attack skills are all examples of combat skills, and there's others.)  Set it pretty high.  I like to build to Drew Hayes' Super Powereds where every Hero is *extensively* trained, and that means skills...so I do 30-50 points in those areas.  In 5E, be VERY leery about the ECs, they're insanely easy to abuse.  Watch the sheet generally...do the limitations really mean anything?  Are they just trying to shave the points to buy more, or are they really meaningful?  Trade off:  no, you don't get points for most foci, it's just SFX.  BUT I won't try to take it away from you either, and even your Iron Man suit can be donned quickly.  IOW, make it about the character concept, not the character points.

[Spence]

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

They do, but honestly they never talk hard numbers really. And while the character attack values are typically super high, their defenses don't seem to match. 

Like Defender 3K can shoot 20d6 eb but only has 30rdef/36ndef. 

Thalya can fire off a 12d6 ap EB but only has 32rdef/44ndef

Rampart's main attack seems to be a Haymaker, which will do 28d6 vs his 50 def, meaning 48 on average gets through.

 

Basically most people are stunned by their own attacks. ;( Maybe I am missing something though?

 

Probably not, missing something that is.

I never really played much in the high powered range and ran less so I never really payed attenuation.

But I am sure that the others on here will be able to give some good feedback.

Talking about Hero is not something lacking around here 😁

[Scott Ruggels]

Anomaly here: I kind of liked the 4-6 hour fights, so 12-14 D6 attacks, but High Defenses, and High con. One of these folksi was a good "boos fight for a team or 3--pt heroes, but fighting each other It was also cool. (though the stun lottery, may make short work of one, it's best then to fight in teams).

 

Scott (Who habitually added pluses to stun mods on RKA attacks, because I'm like that)

[Dr. MID-Nite]

My campaign is technically high powered at this point and I handle it by focusing more on story and character interaction/dialogue. I also tend to provide problems/conflicts that can't easily be solved by brute force alone.

[Lord Liaden]

5 hours ago, Spence said:

Late to the party, but I didn't see it mentioned.

 

5th Ed Galactic Champions discusses high powered characters, both building them and GMing high powered campaigns. 

While I have not really read all the way though it myself, it may be of use.

 

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

They do, but honestly they never talk hard numbers really. And while the character attack values are typically super high, their defenses don't seem to match. 

Like Defender 3K can shoot 20d6 eb but only has 30rdef/36ndef. 

Thalya can fire off a 12d6 ap EB but only has 32rdef/44ndef

Rampart's main attack seems to be a Haymaker, which will do 28d6 vs his 50 def, meaning 48 on average gets through.

 

Basically most people are stunned by their own attacks. ;( Maybe I am missing something though?

 

If you have GC, it includes some optional rules for adjusting how characters interact with the environment -- buildings, vehicles, asteroids, etc. to increase their capacity for comic-book-scale destruction. Most of that was reprinted in the 6E Champions genre book. Doesn't change how characters interact with each other, though.

[Mr. R]

Take a look at a book called the Algernon Files.  The teams they describe there are POWERFUL.  One team the Sentinels have members between 750 and 900 points.  Damage is low 12 d6 to high 16d6.  Defenses range from 25 for the speedster to 35+ for the team brick.   AND a lot of combat bonuses.  And some of the bad guys are just scary. BUT not because they do so much damage, but because they have a large number of alternatives.  I recommend it if you are looking for some high powered examples!

[Lord Liaden]

10 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

They do, but honestly they never talk hard numbers really. And while the character attack values are typically super high, their defenses don't seem to match. 

Like Defender 3K can shoot 20d6 eb but only has 30rdef/36ndef. 

Thalya can fire off a 12d6 ap EB but only has 32rdef/44ndef

Rampart's main attack seems to be a Haymaker, which will do 28d6 vs his 50 def, meaning 48 on average gets through.

 

Basically most people are stunned by their own attacks. ;( Maybe I am missing something though?

 

Perhaps you're missing DCV, defensive Combat Maneuvers, CSL, Movement, and other ways someone can avoid getting hit. It's not all about tanking damage.

 

Also, your numbers are missing a few issues. Rampart's Strength is 100, so his Haymaker will do 24d6, not 28. A Haymaker is also only useful against targets that are immobile or immobilized, otherwise it's easy to avoid.

 

Defender's armor can generate a 12 rPD/12 rED Force Wall in addition to its other Defenses. He also has a 50 pt. VPP for other systems he can install in his armor, including more DEF if he anticipates needing it.

 

Balancing characters' offensive and defensive capabilities is a little more complicated than just comparing the numbers.

[Tywyll]

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Perhaps you're missing DCV, defensive Combat Maneuvers, CSL, Movement, and other ways someone can avoid getting hit. It's not all about tanking damage.

 

Sure, sure, but 'dodge tanks' aren't super viable in rpgs since a single good roll can take them out, especially if the campaigne average for attacks is 16-20d6.

 

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Also, your numbers are missing a few issues. Rampart's Strength is 100, so his Haymaker will do 24d6, not 28. A Haymaker is also only useful against targets that are immobile or immobilized, otherwise it's easy to avoid.

 

He has a power that is +4d6 HA, only with Haymaker, hence the 28d6. And all you have to do is pay attention to the spd chart...once your opponent has gone you are fairly safe to throw one unless they have a super high spd.

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Defender's armor can generate a 12 rPD/12 rED Force Wall in addition to its other Defenses. He also has a 50 pt. VPP for other systems he can install in his armor, including more DEF if he anticipates needing it.

 

IF...

I didn't include the forcewall because that prohibits his attacks. 

 

 

 

[Nekkidcarpenter]

On 11/1/2021 at 8:26 PM, Opal said:

If the whole penetrating/flawed thing is too complicated, another similar way to eliminate the stun lotto that still potentially lets some STN through, is to use the stun multiplier for the BOD that gets through, and when no BOD is inflicted to use a fixed STN multiplier of 2. 

This solves a lot of Stun Lotto problems, and I think in supers games I'm going to use this.

 

[Tywyll]

13 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

My campaign is technically high powered at this point and I handle it by focusing more on story and character interaction/dialogue. I also tend to provide problems/conflicts that can't easily be solved by brute force alone.

 

This is definitely something I am hoping to do, with some issues like saving a town from a Tornado or massive flood/tsunami. 

 

Though, of course, that means I need rules for those things...

[Opal]

That reminds me 'high power' and 'large point totals' can be quite different things.  A character built with 200 more points might have a much bigger attack, or a high-point power with fewer limitations.  A character with 200 exp could have the same point total, but might have a greater variety of powers and skills rather than throw around more dice.

 

Campaign limits or guidelines can have a lot to do with that, too.  In a high-power campaign, you might want high active point totals on powers, so higher DC and defense caps, dramatic powers that do a lot.  But you may or may not want to have similarly greater stats, like SPD or large numbers of skills or 10 overall skill levels, those guidelines might stay closer to the norm, especially if the idea is, y'know, the alien only just gave you that Power Ring last week.... 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

 

Sure, sure, but 'dodge tanks' aren't super viable in rpgs since a single good roll can take them out, especially if the campaigne average for attacks is 16-20d6.

 

 

He has a power that is +4d6 HA, only with Haymaker, hence the 28d6. And all you have to do is pay attention to the spd chart...once your opponent has gone you are fairly safe to throw one unless they have a super high spd.

 

IF...

I didn't include the forcewall because that prohibits his attacks. 

 

 

I'm afraid I don't see why Dodge shouldn't be a viable tactic for any Hero character. And a "good roll" can take out anyone (RPG or real life), but they're harder to come by for attacks of 16+ dice. The bell curve for average results becomes more predictable the more dice you roll.

 

I missed the extra +4d6 HA for Rampart, my apologies. But my comment about Haymaker still stands, and no, it's not just a matter of watching the Speed Chart, because a character can Abort to a defensive action. That includes turning on a defensive Power like a Force Wall. If you as GM haven't let your players know what an opponent's Speed is, and they're fighting a group of them, not many players will pick up on what SPD a particular opponent is right away.   If you as GM are running NPCs, they don't have to take note of a character's SPD stat, because that's a meta-game concept that isn't part of the "reality" of the game world. Haymaker is also a riskier tactic if you're dealing with more than one foe at once. OTOH being part of a team, with good teamwork, can greatly help diminish the consequences for such perceived flaws.

 

But if you as GM aren't satisfied with the way example characters are built, or these play suggestions don't work for you, you can always change them. I often do that with published characters.

[Opal]

Not that you even need to dodge to be very hard to hit, but active defenses in general can be overwhelmed or worked past. Especially if you need different actions - like dodge vs dive for cover.... 

 

...in the comics, a character can often be untouchable (until the author decides otherwise) but in any RPG, even Hero, someone's going to roll really well, or you're going to find yourself without the right defensive option available, and get pasted.  Problem is, when the author does it, it's for a good reason, but the dice have no sense of drama.   

 

(Just like there are tweaks to keep the STN lotto from ruining the bullet-bouncing trope of the classic bricks, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to tweak things to keep an untouchable master inviolable when appropriate.)

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The more points a character has to work with, the more likely they are to buy alternate, special, and unusual attacks.  That multipower turns into a page instead of a few abilities, or even a power pool.  So defenses become less effective.  Would your tank buy an armor piercing punch with 350 points?  Probably not unless that's their specific character design.  But if you have 600 points to work with, why not buy that AVLD against "dive for cover" attack?  And on defenses, why not get that "impenetrable" even though nobody buys penetration?

[unclevlad]

27 minutes ago, Opal said:

Not that you even need to dodge to be very hard to hit, but active defenses in general can be overwhelmed or worked past. Especially if you need different actions - like dodge vs dive for cover.... 

 

...in the comics, a character can often be untouchable (until the author decides otherwise) but in any RPG, even Hero, someone's going to roll really well, or you're going to find yourself without the right defensive option available, and get pasted.  Problem is, when the author does it, it's for a good reason, but the dice have no sense of drama.   

 

(Just like there are tweaks to keep the STN lotto from ruining the bullet-bouncing trope of the classic bricks, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to tweak things to keep an untouchable master inviolable when appropriate.)

 

 

Yeah.  For me, DCV is a factor in building overall defenses...but not for determining how much defense is needed against single shots.  Even if my DCV is 5 higher than your OCV, you hit on a 6- and that's 10%.  My overwhelming-seeming advantage still means I take the occasional hit...so I need enough defenses/CON to avoid being Stunned, at least.  I don't necessarily need high enough defense and STUN to take *several* hits in short order...that won't happen often at all.  Note that this isn't a Hero problem.  Almost every system has similar issues.  In older Shadowrun...I think I played mostly 3rd...needing multiple hits, on a d6, meant that a 1 point adjustment to the target number was often HUGE with small dice pools, and forcing the target number to 6+ pretty much meant you needed massive pools to get even 2 or 3 successes.  d10 systems like Vampire were similar.  In D&D..let's use 3rd Ed's notations.  Lots of aspects here...4-5 point difference between attacker's bonus and defender's AC was nice, but hardly decisive.  The rules of 1 and 20 seem to mimic Hero's 3 and 18...but they're 5% chances rather than 0.5% chances.

 

Trying to fully mimic comics is impossible, as noted.  There's been a thread on FB over the last couple of days, about one author's book series.  The series is based in the 30s and has magic.  People are going, hey, how would rune magic, which is the main character's form of magic, work today, with tablets, with printers?  The only correct answer is..it'd work however the author wanted it to work.  No legitimate comparison can be made to any other writer's world, or to gaming...because the inner workings are completely constructed by the author.  There is no rational basis for any of it.  That holds true in fiction, and particularly true in comics where combat is almost always wildly unrealistic.  In a comparative system like Hero (and most others)...this can't happen.  Hero is heavily simulational, too, which is the exact opposite of comics, and broad sections of superhero and urban fantasy.

 

 

[assault]

In terms of defenses, at some point I would just bite the bullet and buy Damage Reduction.

The logic goes like this: we know that "high power" teams like the JLA include a bunch of characters that are "squishy". Green Arrow, Black Canary, Hawkgirl, the Atom... Batman is the toughest of these, and wears armour.

To simulate the source material, then, we need a way for this to happen. (We don't need fanw*nk about them not belonging there.)

Damage Reduction is the cleanest and simplest way of doing this.

A character with DR, and low resistant defense, can still take Body from a thug with a knife. That should rarely to never happen, but notionally, it could. On the other hand, the character can still survive a really big attack, particularly if they max out their Body. Exactly what level of resistant defense counts as "low" is a matter for consideration - it might have to be relatively high in a particular game - but it's not beyond what can be reasonable.

Of course, once you start handing out Damage Reduction to all and sundry, the tougher characters can start buying it too. You need to start factoring it into to their defenses as well.

That's fine. If nothing else, it deals with the Stun lottery quite nicely, without needing house rules.

A broader issue is the frequency of "Steve Long attacks" - if you look at 5e Dark Champions, there are a lot of ammunition types that bypass normal defenses. To be bulletproof in that context, a character needs a bunch of spot defenses and modifiers on their conventional defenses. This is just complication for the sake of complication, IMHO, and makes characters look like the kind of overcomplex travesties that turn people off HERO.

Personally, I would avoid the use of such things, and look askance at player characters that wanted to use them.

Keeping it simple still applies at high point levels, and more importantly means that you can "build Superman" on 500-800 points, rather than needing 5000-8000. You will never get a character into the latter point range through experience - the former range is entirely possible in a plausibly long lasting campaign.

I'll finish with a quote from first edition Champions: "A general rule that we followed was that about 40 to 50 pts. in a power was pretty good, and 100 pts. in a power was generally wonderful."

From comments from members of the original group on Facebook, it appears that George MacDonald treated 100 points in a power as more or less a hard cap.

(Tanks and such have increased in power over the editions too.)

That sounds good to me, with allowance for powers introduced later (Damage Reduction), and reduced endurance.

More fun than pages and pages of fine print gibberish, anyway.

[Opal]

Damage Reduction can be a good fallback for a character who's mostly supposed to be hard to hit, or one that's supposed to be very tough when the campaign's damage varies wildly high sometimes.

(I'm not so sure it's a great solution for system artifacts like 5x STN mods, which do make damage vary wildly high, so DamReduct, only vs stun of KAs when a '4' or '5' multiplier is rolled might be legit and not a house rule, so an option if no one else sees the issue with superman getting KO'd by a hail of machine gun fire.)

 

It does represent a significant investment in defenses, though. 

I guess for high-power, that's not too bad.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Meh, all Superman needs is enough PD that he doesn't get stunned or take significant damage from even the best possible rolls from mundane weapons, and a ton of stun to soak anything that gets through.  I mean if you're throwing around 18d6 attacks, is 75 PD so unreasonable?

 

Or, to put it another way, if you're going to spend 30 points on damage reduction, why not just +30 PD?

[unclevlad]

Damage Reduction actually makes more sense to protect against a 5E killing attack because that massive over-stun gets so greatly reduced.  Instead of being Stunned and KO'd, and potentially deeply KO'd, which is going to take the character out for several phases, he's much more likely to just be Stunned.  And it's less likely that it'll happen.

 

On the flip side, the character generally takes more Stun from routine attacks.  12d6 normal does, say, 50...which is notably above average.  20 DEF knocks it to 30.  50% DR knocks it to 15.  Effectively even against the high damage roll here, the DR is only giving 15 points of Def.  And if you drop the total DEF, the residual STUN after the DR is fairly significant.

 

One of the other issues with DR is that it essentially reduces the effect of your regular defenses...because +2 DEF, with 50% DR, only means -1 net STUN received.  

 

Overall defense has many variables...CON, STUN, REC, 'normal' defenses, damage reduction, even SPD can be a factor.  In a relatively low-middle DC campaign with 6E's stun mult, I think builds where DR works are VERY specific.  In higher DCs, or with 5E's massive STUN potential at midlevel damage potential, the target should be larger, but I'm not sure it's particularly large even then.

[Opal]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I mean if you're throwing around 18d6 attacks, is 75 PD so unreasonable?

It would bounce an average roll on 18d, so, yes.  It'd be like having a 50 pd in a more typical ~12d attack campaign.   

[Echo3Niner]

I actually have a thread on a campaign I've been running, that is "Cosmic powered" - 1500 point characters: 

 

The high-level stuff starts about halfway down 1st page.

 

There is a 6th Ed version of The Hulk, in my game called 'Zerk - who is  2000 points.

 

We haven't had much issue running this level of game, even though they have crazy high (~40d6) attacks - BUT, and this is the point; I have mature, adult players, who have been roleplaying for the better part of 30+ years, and are really in it for the story - so they're not trying to min/max the system - just make good, well rounded characters, that fit their ideals for the characters they want to play.

 

If you read though it, hope it helps.

[assault]

With the DR thing, there are two main cases.

Mighty Maid (the Maid of Might, MM) is a brick. She can handle normal 18-20 d6 attacks fine. Not all day, but fine. Smaller attacks mostly bounce off her defenses. For her, DR is a bonus that allows her to deal with high Stun KAs and similar.

Flying Mammal Man (FMM) isn't a brick. He tries not to get hit. He needs a buffer for when he does get tagged, but it really doesn't matter if he gets flattened on the second or third hit. He can also be taken out by smaller attacks. For him, DR is the core of how he works. His other defenses can be quite respectable, but trying not to be hit is what he does.

Obviously, both spend a lot on defenses, but FMM spends a lot less than MM. He can possibly take her down with some of the gizmos in his Useful Belt, but he's not a slugger in the same way she is.

These are the two reference points against which the other characters are compared. FMM is actually tougher than some of the others.

If both of them work, things are fine.

[Mr. R]

I am going to refer to a game I heard about called "Pointless Champions"  This was a high power campaign, but after you made your toon, that was it.  Experience points were not used to improve characters.  If you got a new skill it was because it was thematically appropriate for your toon to get it.  Ditto with talents, powers and stats.  This emulated the source material that characters in comics generally stayed the same over time.  Get a base?  Yeah because it fit the story, not because you spent XP!  

 

Character points were just to gauge how powerful PCs and NPCs were in regard to each other.  

 

To make it work, strict genre conventions were held and stuck to.  

 

Make a Martial Artist, great!  But no EBs, no flight, no super str.  EVER.  And all the conventions for MA were there, you know the ninja opponents, secret societies, etc.

 

Maybe someone else on the forum can direct him better, but this seem JUST WHAT HE NEEDS!

[Lord Liaden]

25 minutes ago, Mr. R said:

I am going to refer to a game I heard about called "Pointless Champions"  This was a high power campaign, but after you made your toon, that was it.  Experience points were not used to improve characters.  If you got a new skill it was because it was thematically appropriate for your toon to get it.  Ditto with talents, powers and stats.  This emulated the source material that characters in comics generally stayed the same over time.  Get a base?  Yeah because it fit the story, not because you spent XP!  

 

Character points were just to gauge how powerful PCs and NPCs were in regard to each other.  

 

To make it work, strict genre conventions were held and stuck to.  

 

Make a Martial Artist, great!  But no EBs, no flight, no super str.  EVER.  And all the conventions for MA were there, you know the ninja opponents, secret societies, etc.

 

Maybe someone else on the forum can direct him better, but this seem JUST WHAT HE NEEDS!

 

"Pointless Champions" is an excellent article by our long-absent forum colleague, Theron Bretz, in Digital Hero #3, referring to 5E Hero System. A substantial excerpt from that article was hosted for free on an earlier incarnation of the Hero Games website, and you can still view it here.

 

Two or three other articles from that issue of DH could also be useful to Tywyll.