How much of an Advantage is a swinging power that does not require physical anchors or provides its own

[indy523]

Hello Everyone,

 

I am thinking of an advantage for the swinging power.  Essentially the power requires an anchor point above the character for him to latch onto in order to work.  Therefore, in a treeless flat Savanna or Prairie Swinging does not work.  This is simply a function of how the power works.

 

So, what if you have a character that used force energy in whiplike cords (so that the power could be bought with the advantage of not being affected by barriers, etc.) that the character could also make attached to points in the sky through magnetic force.  The energy coils can latch onto the points and thus swing the character.

 

Alternatively, you could have a character with swinglines attached to their wrists which can latch onto objects normally buy also has let us say two or three flying robot drones to which the character can latch onto a well.  The drones can hover in air allowing the character to swing.  The weight of the character being such that they can only move when not supporting the character, etc.

 

The net game effect of this advantage is that a character can indeed swing on a flat plane with no higher vantage points to attach the swingline because they can make their own.  This is not flight because the character still has to swing, can't just attach the line and fly the drone or the magnetic field and if the power is dispelled they fall normally and are not safely lowered as in flight. {If I remember that right about the flight power}.

 

I guess I can call it "Able to Create Anchor Points" and make it a +1/2 Advantage.  That seems right but I was wondering if others thought it should be higher or lower.

 

Cheers

Indy

[Greywind]

Flight

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah looks like flight with a funny special effect to me.  It might appear to be swinging, but it doesn't have any of the normal constructs or limitations of swinging, its just moving through the air in an unusual way.

[schir1964]

Can these Robots be attacked/destroyed?

 

If so then It might make sense to have this defined as advantage on Swinging.

If not then modified Flight with SFX. Keep in mind that Flight has a built in turn radius. Not sure if Swinging has that.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Can these Robots be attacked/destroyed?

 

I'd call it restrainable or physical manifestation then.

[Tech]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I'd call it restrainable or physical manifestation then.

I agree.

[unclevlad]

Those are some BUFF drones, to handle a typical character's weight.  

 

Phys manifestation makes sense, and I'd be very much inclined to include Obvious Power Effects unless you've got some crazy tech demon.

 

But ya know, if you can do this, why not make a hoverboard where the drones are providing the lift?  

 

As far as anchoring in the air....what's holding the anchor fixed in place?  This makes no sense to me.

 

As an alternative to flight, some of these also sound like Leaping, potentially with some Gliding.  It's certainly a heckuva lot less confusing.

 

 

[schir1964]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I'd call it restrainable or physical manifestation then.

Physical Manifestation? Something new I'm not familiar with. I'll need to look that one up.

[unclevlad]

It's something that's a real object, so it can be targeted to be disrupted and stop the power.  It is NOT a focus;  it can't be taken away for an extended period, for example.  The difference between PM and a focus can be kinda subtle in play, especially if the GM doesn't generally try to strip/disable them. 

[indy523]

20 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah looks like flight with a funny special effect to me.  It might appear to be swinging, but it doesn't have any of the normal constructs or limitations of swinging, its just moving through the air in an unusual way.

 

Flight is controlled.  This would not be.  

[indy523]

9 hours ago, schir1964 said:

Can these Robots be attacked/destroyed?

 

If so then It might make sense to have this defined as advantage on Swinging.

If not then modified Flight with SFX. Keep in mind that Flight has a built in turn radius. Not sure if Swinging has that.

The robots would be Focuses in the way I am envisioning this but honestly one does not need to destroy the focus.  Swinging fails if a villain takes out the area of the tree where your line is tied or destroys the building or even moves the line.  Unless of course you buy the advantage that lets it go through physical barriers.

 

Even in the other scenario where the special effect is energy whips (that character would buy the not affected by barrier advantage) practically any energy blast could disrupt the line not to mention magnetic based TK and maybe TK in general by some argument, this means the character has to save himself with an attack roll against another object or point in time (Dex roll, abort to an attack roll to hit with the line (defensive in this case but that might break the rule).

 

Swinging itself is inherently more risky hence the reduced cost 1 pt for 2m.  I would not rule this as any less risky.  It is just swinging with an advantage.  

 

Comparing it to flight swinging is less practical than gliding yet gliding costs the same.  I don't see this version as equaling flight so +1/2A seems reasonable.  Makes the cost of this 2m for 1.5 points.  Gliding is 2m for 1 pts and flight 2m for 2 pts.  But I don't know.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Flight is controlled.  This would not be.  

 

I am not sure what you mean by this?  What could you do with flight that you cannot do with this?   That couldn't be represented with a imitation on flight, at least?

[indy523]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

 

But ya know, if you can do this, why not make a hoverboard where the drones are providing the lift?  

 

As far as anchoring in the air....what's holding the anchor fixed in place?  This makes no sense to me.

 

 

 

This was just an idea I came up with.  The Drones fly among themselves.  They can't move with the character attached because they have to concentrate on hovering to stay aloft.  This was done just to mirror how swinging works.  Flight on a hoverboard is controlled and has a built in safety feature.  If I dispel the Flight of a character while in flight, they do not crash, they safely land whereever they are.  This is done to keep people using dispels to autokill flying characters for game balance.

 

Swinging has no such safety built in.  You dispel swinging mid swing and the character hits the ground hard.  There a safety net to flight, not to swinging.  What you are forgetting as well is swinging is based on lines.  These can be attacked.  A character could fly through them grabbing them.  Even with the go through physical barriers advantage the site being attached can be attacked.  Villian can target the side of the building the swingline is attached to and the swinger starts to fall.  They can try and attach elsewhere but that is probably a Dex roll or attack roll or something to save in time.  

 

I see this as worse than gliding in many respects.  All the advantage does is allow the swinging to happen where there are not normal hand holds by allowing the character to create them.

 

PS:  if the drones themselves could move with the character attached then this would be flight but that is not what I wanted.

 

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

 

 

[Greywind]

Then take it as Swinging. Just don't expect a limitation for it.

[unclevlad]

Do people really take Dispel Flight that often?  I never saw it, that I can recall.  It's something one NEVER sees in the superhero genre, either.  Knock the Surfer off his board?  Sure.  Knock Iron Man's jet boots offline?  Occasionally, especially, IIRC, Iron Man II.  Those aren't Dispels, tho.

 

Also:  can you cite where in the rules it allows a controlled landing with Flight, rather than an uncontrolled freefall?  

 

Last:  even if it's dispelled, it's pretty rare to take a complicated setup.  It can be restarted.  6E2 has the Falling Table;  it's NOT like you crash instantaneously.

 

I suspect most of us just see what you're trying to do as just...a misfit.  You're trying to go from A to B when there is no terrestrial path from A to B.  Fine.

--Flight as an Instant Power.

--Leaping.  

--Teleport, with Must Pass Through Intervening Space.

--how about Stretching, with Cannot Do Damage?  

 

I think none of us care to bastardize the core concept of Swinging, and the notion of "anchoring to nothing" is just...ehhh...weird.  Not when there's plenty of other ways to capture the idea.

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Let's take a step backwards.

 

Flight costs 1 points per 1 meter.  The character flies under his own power, with no physical manifestation, and without restriction on changing direction, other than Turn Mode. 

 

Swinging requires the character to have or attach swinglines.  Absent a limitation, the character can produce as many swinglines as he needs, and there is no automatic ability for an opponent to take out the swingline and cause the character to fall.  See the discussion of Focus on 6e V1 p292.  Typically, swinging is in a straight line, but arcs can also be allowed (6e v2 p29).  It's considerably less responsive.

 

Taken in total, the limitations of Swinging are effectively a -1 limitation on Flight.  So removing the need for a swingline, or adding the other restrictions to flight, should result in a cost exceeding 1 point per 2 meters, and falling short of 1 point per 1 meter.  If I were setting a limitation, I'd want to know just how limited it is.  The character can only have one attachment point at a time?  Much more limiting than a character who can change direction mid-swing by using new attachment points created on the fly.  The latter is probably flight with a physical manifestation, or even a focus.

 

Or just buy swinging and build the drones as Automaton Followers!

[Ninja-Bear]

13 hours ago, schir1964 said:

Physical Manifestation? Something new I'm not familiar with. I'll need to look that one up.

The best example of Phy Man is Ice Man’s slides. They’re typically bought as Flight. Shouldn’t I be able to attack them? In the cartoon when Ice Man loses his Slide he falls until he reforms them.  

[Ninja-Bear]

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Those are some BUFF drones, to handle a typical character's weight.  

 

Phys manifestation makes sense, and I'd be very much inclined to include Obvious Power Effects unless you've got some crazy tech demon.

 

But ya know, if you can do this, why not make a hoverboard where the drones are providing the lift?  

 

As far as anchoring in the air....what's holding the anchor fixed in place?  This makes no sense to me.

 

As an alternative to flight, some of these also sound like Leaping, potentially with some Gliding.  It's certainly a heckuva lot less confusing.

 

 

Because this is Hero System? Make what you envision? 😁

[Tjack]

It’s Flight or SuperLeap both with appropriate limitations.   I ask this during a lot of this type of thread, is this something you actually want to play or is it more of an academic question about the rules?

[schir1964]

14 hours ago, indy523 said:

The robots would be Focuses in the way I am envisioning this but honestly one does not need to destroy the focus.  Swinging fails if a villain takes out the area of the tree where your line is tied or destroys the building or even moves the line.  Unless of course you buy the advantage that lets it go through physical barriers.

 

Even in the other scenario where the special effect is energy whips (that character would buy the not affected by barrier advantage) practically any energy blast could disrupt the line not to mention magnetic based TK and maybe TK in general by some argument, this means the character has to save himself with an attack roll against another object or point in time (Dex roll, abort to an attack roll to hit with the line (defensive in this case but that might break the rule).

 

Swinging itself is inherently more risky hence the reduced cost 1 pt for 2m.  I would not rule this as any less risky.  It is just swinging with an advantage.  

 

Comparing it to flight swinging is less practical than gliding yet gliding costs the same.  I don't see this version as equaling flight so +1/2A seems reasonable.  Makes the cost of this 2m for 1.5 points.  Gliding is 2m for 1 pts and flight 2m for 2 pts.  But I don't know.

If the Robots are a separate focus item then I would just make this a custom advantage +1/4 or +1/2 to Swinging and define it as you've described. You're basically providing you're own anchor points. Although I would make one change to the definition. That anyone successfully attacking the hex location of the robots or line disrupts the anchor point. I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than that. The advantage value really depends on just how easy it is to disrupt the anchor points.

 

I wouldn't do Physical Manifestation unless you think the additional restrictions it imposes applies. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Do people really take Dispel Flight that often?  I never saw it, that I can recall. 

 

I've never seen it in comics, but its in my spellbook for magic (Windshear).  Its a good idea for a spellcaster/reality warper/air controller to use on an enemy but it doesn't come up much. The thing is, dispelling is instant; their next phase they can turn the power back on.  A kind GM might even allow a character to abort to turn flight back on, treating it as a defensive move.  So its of limited utility.

 

The Hero Method is to look at the final effect of an ability, and reason back from that to the power.  No matter what it looks like, what the special effects are, or what you have in your head, you go from what it does back to how it does it.  Swinging without needing any anchor points is just flying with a weird special effect.  You've entirely lost the requirements of swinging, it just looks like you're swinging.

[LoneWolf]

You are wrong about flight having a built in safety feature. When you dispel a characters flight they start to fall. Unless you put a focus or physical manifestation limitation on swinging you cannot prevent the character from using swinging.  Without the limitations the character can simply create a new line at as needed. This is specifically mentioned in the rules on swinging.  Most characters that have swinging put those limitations on them, but they are not actually required. The rules are also very clear that to use swinging you need to be able to attach the line to something.  You cannot get rid of this and still use swinging. 

 

What you are talking about is flight a focus limitation.   You are also confusing special effect with limitations.  The fact that the drones cannot move is irrelevant and does not affect the cost in any way shape or form.  If you only have a limited number of drones it might affect the accessibility of the focus.  Having many drones would make it an inaccessible focus, where having only a couple would probably make it an accessible focus. 

 

Don’t get caught up in the name of the power.  In the Hero system powers can usually be built in multiple ways .  If you want to have a power that works like another one you buy the power that gives you the ability to do what you want and then add advantages and limitations to fine tune it.   The classic example is flight defined as running.  If you want to be able to run up the side of a building you don’t use running and try and add some custom advantage, you use flight only in contact with surface.

 

Buy this as flight with an OAF.  If you were to use swinging and the GM agreed the value of the advantage should be +1. 

[schir1964]

Okay, I've done some research and I would approach this completely different and it is perfectly rules legal.

 

I would simply build a separate power to supply the anchor points (Barrier).

Barrier has all the necessary components to supply any kind of anchor points you want and has the benefit that the SFX of the anchor point is tied to the Barrier power and not Swinging.

 

It has rules for Body/Def for being attacked/destroyed

It has rules for STR for how much weight the anchor point can hold without breaking.

 

It can be invisible, floating, mobile, or anything you need with official modifiers.

 

If it only appears when you are swinging then link it to Swinging.

 

And the best part is that once you have figured out what you need, it's a static cost and you are through.

Buy as much swinging as you like over time and the cost doesn't increase.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[LoneWolf]

Like I said with the Hero system there is usually multiple ways to purchase anything.  But while Barrier will work it has some implications you have not thought about and is going to make this a lot more complicated and expensive than it needs to be.

 

First thing is that since Barrier requires an attack roll it takes a half phase action to create and it ends your turn.  That means you can only use a Barrier that you created previously to swing from.  If you are creating a barrier to use on your next turn you can only move half of your swinging.  Also if you want to attack while swinging you may need to use the multiple attack rules which is going to impose a penalty. Once you have a couple of them up and moving this no longer applies, but getting it started is going to be a pain.

 

Second Barriers must normally be attached to the ground and do not move.  You can purchase the +10 Adder Non-Anchored and the +1/4 advantage Mobile.  So this is going to cost a minimum of 16 active points. Using Barrier also costs END which means you are paying 2 extra END per turn.  You can of course buy it with O END, but that increases the cost to 23. This is assuming you are not buying any DEF or BODY for the barrier which means any attack that is capable of doing body destroys it. .  If you want it to be invisible you also have to add the invisible power effects, which is going to increase the cost even more.

 

Since these “drones” are purchased as a barrier they cannot actually do anything but sit there and move.  They have no sensors so cannot be used to monitor things or make any kind of attack.  This seems to me to be way too expensive for just being able to use swinging and is not worth the cost.  A better alternative would be to purchase the drones as followers so they could actually do more.  You might also be able to buy them as Vehicles and add an AI to allow them to pilot themselves. This is going to be more expensive, but will at least allow you to get some useful abilities besides acting as anchor points for your swinging.

 

In all honesty you are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be.